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Rexxie

Karelia's Hill

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map-karelia.jpg

 

I have a hard time with Karelia.

  • The mid is complete trash.
  • The north is complete trash if you dont own hill.

This leaves the hill and the area around it. Most advice I hear is "go hill whenever possible unless its obvious you'll get crushed", but...

  1. Hill is do or die. You either win the hill, or you die. Unless you're stupid fast, leaving the hill is suicide.
  2. Hill is incredibly volatile to many tanks. Sure, it's perfect for RUmeds (go figure), but almost all of it is outside of arty cover, can be fired at from the north, and can be shot at by whatever poor bastard camps base.
  3. Hill is a complete tossup. Yeah, let's say you go hill... but your other meds? Nah, they're going to stop at the base. Or, let's say you do go hill - but woops, your team lets three of their T110E5s go up too. GG, hill lost. If you don't have a 3 man team of top tier mediums, you're just rolling the dice.
  4. If you take too long to win hill, you can't even hide on the slope up, because J8/9 lets them take shots there.
  5. Even in a light tank, its completely possible for you to just get obliterated on your way up by the faster meds/heavies rounding the corner.

You can never be sure about winning a certain key location on any map, but this seems to be incredibly luck based. Other than some light hulldown, there is no tricks to pull and no cover to abuse. You're completely as the mercy of how many people decide to travel up it - and losing the hill is almost an ensured loss. It's like Mines - the game is pretty much decided by tank comp - except unlike on mines, if you dont go hill, you have nowhere to go. There's no little town to brawl in, no shoreline to play vision games from, no way to stop the hill players without going there yourself. You have a mexican standoff of heavies and TDs at the hillbase. That's literally it.

 

...at least, that's how I see it. How can I reliably win this map? I hate how luckbased this feels.

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Basically if hill is taken, by the team with more mediums, you are stuck with taking the low road under hill and if there is arty in the game, you are fucked. Alternatively I've found that taking a fast medium and yoloing north is good if there aren't many TDs.

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Karelia has been a bad map since beta, so there's no surprise here: Even back then it was entirely centered on the hill and accompanying shooting lane, simply because it was the only reasonably arty safe location and North is stupidly exposed to crossfire. I also have a problem with the hill approach being infinitely more exposed to the north spawn than south, since the south only has to round a small corner while north has to drive on a very long linear path. Basically, if the south spawn has both heaviums and meds, RIP hill approach from the north.

 

The north used to have a good meta approach a while back but that has been cancelled out after people realised that you could lock the flank down entirely by having a couple of more or less basecamping TDs while winning hill. There's a reason why Karelia constantly was the top "please remove it from the game" map until WG started sperging out with Komarin, Swamp etc. Honestly, if you really want to go for surprise wins, perhaps a full platoon of meds going north while applying maximum W is the way to go: Nobody ever does this in pubs and it can allow you to back-snipe the heavies or force a cap if needed.

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I've found when your team does not support hill from the bottom road area with the rocks, I tend to die. Quickly and badly.

 

I've taken to playing the lower road in heavies and a couple meds. In very fragile meds, I've gotten to the point where I avoid the hill unless I know I have a solid team.

 

Then again, there is probably little or nothing that I could actually teach Rexxie. :P

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If there isn't a good chance of straight up winning the hill at the start, I usually just go fight down in the K7-G0 trench. Tanks with enough turret armor and gun depression can get hull down and fight back against tanks sitting up on the hill. I think the south gets a bigger advantage initially in the trench. There is a bush on the eastern side of the large rock at J8 that will allow you to peek out and quickly spot stuff hanging back at F/G0 and you can prod at the cluster of heavies that usually sits in the hill niche at G8. However, if the northern side regains control of the hill they can safely push up to that same rock at J8 and use it to go hull down for spotting/prodding the enemy team.

 

It seems a lot harder to push the northern spawn from H9 than it is to push the southern spawn from J8. The southern side feels a lot more open than the north.

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This map is like the cross between Lakeville and Mines, with the worst of both.

 

All I can say is bail early if you don't have the lineup for the hill, your team is inbred, etc. Setup in chai sniping spots and hope your pubbies don't get attritioned faster than theirs.

 

Hill control isn't an autowin since it doesn't really help against hard camps; I'm sure you've had those games that last forever even with one team taking hill. Kinda lame, but just digging in for a long attrition game is probably the best you can do if you lost hill.

 

North just takes too much cooperation to work consistently. Pubbies almost never push properly there, period.

 

The north spawn honestly feels much weaker than the south spawn because of that retarded bush on the south spawn low road and the fact that you can easily fire onto the other side of the hill from the south spawn low road. The north gets uber-gimped in this regard.

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Yeah, I've gotten the feeling that north spawn is much worse, too. Alright. Thanks for the advice, guys.

 

Yeah, I felt the same way. South seems to give a really nice advantage to hill rushers.

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My key memory of the map is constantly getting slaughtered from north side, rarely from south. The terrain just favors south pushing north instead of north pushing south. I've often had large success defending from the hill once they breech south, but you're usually too outnumbered for a comeback by that point.

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When presented with a team that is arguing over whether strawberry or grape windex is better, I'll frequently stick to the NE edges to avoid being in the hill draw box.  Depends on the speed of my vehicle and number of team mates that went here or there of course.  It's a bad map.

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Generally for me, whenever the hill is lost, I usually fall back and defend from like D0 or K3 (depending on what spawn I got.  That reduces the number of tanks that come around and allows me to knock some out so HOPEFULLY our team can comeback.  

 

Now, if the hill is distracted/still being fought for, and I am not ON the hill, I will usually be at the base of the hill like right over in J8, H9 (also dependent on spawn) either firing up onto the hill at the asses and sides of meds, or pushing the base (not the cap, the basin area like thing) with a couple other heavies.  If you push the base of the hill, and cut off the enemy mediums escape who are on hill, you can encircle them with your team, and they will hopefully push up and start killing tanks.

 

That's just what I do, it works most of the time, but you need your team to listen to you, and obviously you need to know how much tanks you can handle alone.  Because as soon as you push that base of the hill, you can't fall back.

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I prefer to have one or two fast tanks in platoons for if I get Mines or Karelia. If you have something going to the middle rock in the south and a healthy amount on the hill, if your team doesn't take it, I hope that they can just attrition their way long enough for perhaps a north push. 

 

I don't see this case as much of a map problem as it is WG not wanting to patch up MM so there isn't a tank class imbalance (one side with no mediums, etc.) 

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Terrible map. I don't go hill anymore, regardless of what tank I'm using, based on the principle that it is almost never a good idea to put yourself in a situation where you have no escape. And more than that, since I usually play solo I have to rely on my pubs to support me on hill rushes, and we all know how that goes ~99% of the time.

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I'm generally playing fast lights or TDs, so I used to figure that my job was to get to the hill and hold it long enough for the rest of the medium/heavy rush to come up.  I've given that up recently, since about 1/3rd of my teams stop at the approach corners.  If that happens and the other team pushes even one or two decent medium tanks, my best option is generally to bail off the cliff, which hasn't proven as successful as you'd hope.  I think the best hill-pushing tank would be a reasonably armored medium, since you're very likely going to need to hold off at least a couple of tanks by yourself.

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My opinion of Karelia is PRAISE RNGESUS FOR (momentarily) GIVING WG THE IQ NEEDED TO CHANGE DRAW BOX TO A CIRCLE.

 

Then I realized that makes my favourite map, Steppes, even more favorable for RU meds as they can now get closer wthout being sniped in the east and there are enough ridges to cover their dwarven bodies.

 

Fucking Russkimediumbias... whatever, at least Karelia is still more balanced than MINES.

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rDPJu8e.jpg

 

My breakdown:

Red areas: FML, 100% guarentee if theres 2 or more arties, they're going to pre-aim that area. Move into the black spot? Goodbye. Ive been clicked more often than not at those spots than I care to mention. However, if you try and go outside of them you're eposed longer to the areas in grey.

 

Grey Areas: One of the safer areas to be in if you're in a weakly armored tank and cannot get up the hill. Especially from the south in a Leo 1, the grey spots are pretty nice if you're able to sneak in shots at the next area, the yellows.

 

Yellow Areas: After arty focuses the reds, they often will shift to the yellows. This is where some heavy sniping takes place, can guarantee that there will be at least 2 or more tanks in those areas. Or, they focus the next area depending on who wins the hill, the blues. Btw, get caught out here in a soft tank, you're dead

 

Blue Areas: Only safe if no one is in mid spotting. Theres just enough cover to be annoying to whatever poor souls went north, but still, its dangerous. Ive gotten upwards 7k spotting from the D6 area in a light tank before and probably will again. Theres only one "safe" area, and thats about where the White areas are

 

White Area: There's enough depression in those areas to allow hull down, and to hide your auto-loader if you need to reload (IE Bat Chat). 

 

 

Basically, I agree with Rexxie here. This map is too much determined by whomever gets the most mediums. Theres simply too much open area in the north to allow a heavy push. I do feel the map, if all MM even, favors the south here with 2-3 areas the north doesnt have to camo snipe the hill or down below safely. 

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I had an interesting thought about this map a while ago and got varied feedback about it..  

 

Would it be any better if you could also get up the hill in the G6 F7 areas too?

Would the hill be less important if there were taller rock formations from E3 to C5?

 

I've also seen a YOLO rush by faster heavies and mediums down the  A line and 1 line work too.  However it probably only worked because there were two platoons form the same clan on the same team doing the rush and they had a few lemmings follow them.

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If I'm north with anything else than a perfect spawn for hill, I just say "fuck it!" and yolo NW flank as hard as a coked up baboon.

This map is pretty shit from north, but this is what I have found to be the most viable approach if you aren't feeling sure about winning the hill.

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Yeah, I felt the same way. South seems to give a really nice advantage to hill rushers.

South seems to have a shorter path, I never rush it from north...bigger problem is attaining the hill, THEN realizing the other fast tanks stopped somewhere on the way there...shit

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Looks like they changed Karelia a bit in supertest so that the north team has a better chance. Easier access to hill, a rock on hill to block shots from the north, and some moved rocks down in the ditch so north has more cover there.

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