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Which do you choose  

76 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you...

  2. 2. Which best describes you

    • Don Quixote - tilt the windmill and high ground, no matter the cost
    • The Bear Who Went Over the Mountain - to see what you could see, to see what you could see


Question

I had a disagreement with another player today about some in-game choices. It might be interesting or informative to the readers of this forum, so please follow along with my scenario and questions. 

 

Its the opening moments of Malinovka. You're in your trusty hovercraft and in a comfortable platoon. Sadly a Leo1 has been nuked from orbit by a CGC before the contact begins, so you've pushed the Malinovka hill with just an RU-251. A single heavy tank has been spotting down low, and nothing else, except the enemy Leo who has beaten you up top and popped the RU-251 once. You push on the leo, trying to hit him on the move and...

 

uxJ9dWv.jpg

 

Crap!

 

Some more information:

 

The platooned HT close behind you is an AMX 50B

The further HT is an E-100, but he isn't past the church yet

The enemy Bat25t, 50B and T49 have not been spotted yet. 

 

Do you take the windmill, or do you drop back (A7/8) and wait for the E-100/T110E5/IS-7? Why would you chose what you chose? And why not the other? Why did you go hill?

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Leave, those mediums will dig you out and arty will find a way to hit you, there's no happy ending staying up there. Too many clickers to even wait for your 50b platoon mate, who should be turning around himself, you have to cede control or lose.

 

If there's no arty you back off and use your turret, but there is so it's not viable

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I would have stayed. 

 

You would have taken a beating but with that 50b right behind you, you  would have been able to clip out one of the meds, and forced the other one to back off. 

 

Then you'll have had control of the hill, and be at least somewhat safe behind the windmill from arty.

 

With that many arty on that map, you have to make sacrifices to get the battle moving forward.

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I'm not purple, nor do I have a lot of experience doing this kind of thing, but based on the way I play from the other side, I would go right up to the rear of the windmill and make sure the enemies knew that's where I was headed. There is a chance the enemies would think your teammates are coming up behind you and it you would have some time to hold that position until at least one friendly heavy was up there with you. If the enemies had tried to push at that point, they would have trouble, since they are proxy spotted and might not be able to spot your teammates. It's a big risk, but I think that's that one I'd take (especially if the Leo looked like he was just going to peekaboo).

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I would have stayed. 

 

You would have taken a beating but with that 50b right behind you, you  would have been able to clip out one of the meds, and forced the other one to back off. 

 

Then you'll have had control of the hill, and be at least somewhat safe behind the windmill from arty.

 

With that many arty on that map, you have to make sacrifices to get the battle moving forward.

This, more or less. If you stay hill, hull down in A9 or whatnot you may well die.  But you might not.  The bat and easy cancer shots should keep them off your nuts, and you have a fighting chance to keep the hill contested.  If you fall down off the hill, your heavies are stuck in A6 against 3x cancer and poking mediums.  That only ends one way -- lit and raped, 15-6 loss.  So really, your best hope is to contest the hill long enough for your heavies to get in the action, then back off and find something else productive to do.

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CGC had already proven himself capable of preaiming. 261. How long would you hull down A9? 10s? Until 50B was windmill and then join?

 

You might lose if you get killed by arty fighting for hill, but you'll definitely lose if you don't contest hill

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I'm not purple and can only speak from my personal experience in that exact situation, I always go behind the windmill to contest the hill hoping arty/allies will keep the enemies at bay ... so far my death rate in that spot within the minute or so is at 100%.

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Not a purple overall, but I would have stayed.  Back down to A9, regroup at least with the 50B, focus fire down one of the tanks (STB-1 would have been my choice).  By that point you would have more tanks joining you on the hill from your team, and if the enemy acts like expected normal players, they would see an STB-1 get slaughtered, and a leo1 booking it since he is outnumbered, thus no one would in their right mind try to go up the hill and challenge you.

 

Alternatively, if the enemy DID still have their bat, T49, and 50B heading up the hill, you still kill the STB-1, then back down, wait for the big armor.  Obviously making the best attempt to break contact so that arty will not try to nuke you.  

 

If executed properly, the STB-1 would be dead in like 10 seconds tops.  Then you have the option based on whether the enemy is still pushing the hill, or booking it to either stay or fall back and get some armor up on the hill.  Results in a tier 10 medium dead, and hopefully for both the 50B and yourself some minor damage with either the hill, or about to get the hill positioning. 

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Hmm, in this situation I would keep advancing to the windmill and its arty cover. Unless their bat/50b is right behind them unlit and you get swarmed, you can at least hold that position and force the two meds to make a decision. The leo is caught in the open and would probably fall back, if he doesn't he has to deal with the three of you up there and your arty. The STB could either push you or run. He'll probably poke and get a shot out, but he'll eat at least one from you and your 50b, maybe even the RU, in return. If you succeed in fighting them off, your heavies will have confidence to keep advancing, and theirs are caught climbing the slope in the open.

 

I would try to ensure I got their hill side lit, but otherwise I would play extremely defensive and conserve hp because arty WILL try digging you out.  The longer you stay and fend them off, the better.

 

I personally wouldn't hull down A9 because 1: arty, 2: STB will still be behind windmill, 3: I'd have to turn around and eat at least a leo shot to get there, and 4: I already burned my repairs. But if you can get to hull down successfully, you force the leo back while your 50b either moves up and wrecks the STB, or helps with the leo. 

 

A lot can go wrong with every decision you can make here. I'm sure we've all had games won after falling back to church and lost after winning the hill. It really depends on how your teammates play it and arty landing shots. IMO you give your team the best chance by claiming that windmill and staying alive. 

 

Another good question: how does your 50b platoonmate play this?

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Just drive slightly down the hill and wait for 50B backup (A9 or so), then push the hill with him. One of those meds WILL die if they don't retreat all the way down and with 3 cancers on your team, one of which is an autocancer, it is highly unlikely the 2nd med would survive hanging around up there. Even the bat wouldn't be able to force you off the hill if you have cover by the windmill because your own arty would rain death from above. HT backup isn't even that far away to begin with, so there's no reason to retreat fully from the hill. Besides that, giving the enemy hill control with this much cancer present is fucking retarded and is an almost certain loss with the viewranges available at tier 10.

 

Ain't even purple, it just seems overwhelmingly likely that you'd lose if you backed off, given the team compositions. Bat and T49 would certainly be able to out-scout anything you've got left after losing the hill.

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I would just yolo straight to windmill, they don't have the balls to push on you, and they might get as much as one shot each before you have backup if they do.
Better than taking your chances on arty faggots missing.

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crab, were u lose your own skilled?

 

last time u ask me about u, where to move in murovanka?

 

If you acknowledge your own strategy which similar in CW or Stronghold...

you could have great advantages....

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I would try and take the windmill, pose a threat to the enemy without actively engaging them and just try to hold them back until you get backup. Maybe you would have taken another shot, maybe two, but these guys would back up the moment the 50B pops up. If not at least one of them is toast and you would have traded your tank 1 for 1, which is bad, but would allow your team to take the windmill, which is helpful when you are facing space nukes.

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leave, 3x arty + 2x t10 med means you will die, 50b is a 1 shot for arty aswell, and E100 is too slow (he gets spotted halfway and dies)

 

only camping behind the rock and hope your arty is good (or the enemy meds are coward) or run back to camp @ forest might work

 

that said, best tektik for caminovka north side seems nowadays old school ``basecamp till we die``, 2 tanks on hill and 13 behind church / rocks / bushes, which means if south takes the hill, your still fucked, since hill is useless in that scenario...

 

ps: hill is also winnable, if you arty gets lucky RNG or those 2 tanks are the only ones going to the hill it should be alright, but its a massive gamble, if that bat chat just suicides into you, your dead and hill is lost (a 50B has no staying power and anything and anyone try to rush and kill it, over and over...)

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I suppose I wasn't entirely clear in my OP (such is the nature of my brains at 2am), not contesting the hill was never an option, the question was to drop back to A8/9 (the low ground where a 62A is hulldown and camo'd) and then push into windmill with the heavies. I knew my E-100 was coming up pretty much no matter what. 

 

Anyways, there is far from consensus, which is kind of what I expected. I chose to hull down A9, and wait on my heavies. Right as I got behind the A9 ridge, a 50B popped up and traded 1 for 1 with my 50B, with their meds being in much better position to eliminate my 50B. The E5 and the IS-7 went to the low rock and the meds then drifted over to them. The RU and I moved up and eliminated the 50B, holding behind windmill until the E-100 got there. 

 

Replay http://wotreplays.eu/site/1422197#malinovka-crabeatoff-t-62a

 

Perspective from my 50B platoonmate at the 2hr 45min mark:  http://www.twitch.tv/maxl_1023/b/598638922

 

Should I have gone right for the windmill and tucked in? Maybe. My experience is "forcing it" in situations like this ends up with 2 dead platoonmates. Its possible because I am not good enough at defensive driving, or recovering quickly from my mistakes. I don't really think there is a "right" answer, only a choice informed by playstyle. I think contesting the hill is a given, but that the right way is to counter-push with at least 1 HT. Perhaps this isn't platoon enabling enough though, I'll be pondering it. 

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I would have contested the windmill. That gives me some arty cover, some vision on what is climbing the slope, and forces the meds to push around on me. It's a high risk move, but sometimes Voltaire is right: they only live who dare.

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I was the one trying to get Crab to stay up on the hill. With those mediums in that position taking windmill forces them to expose to fire in order to dig us out. Even if we die, those meds are now damaged and the heavies (including an E3, 113 and IS-7 which are halfway up) can clean them out as they are now past the windmill in an exposed position. If he was with me when the 50B pops he kills the 50B before he gets his fourth shot out (I hit him first, and he reloads a second shell in less than 7.5 seconds so 1600 + 640) and he is then mostly hull down against the other mediums with an easy path to the artillery cover. 

 

The only way you win when they take hill is if they are idiots and push down one at a time. We were lucky that the other 3 tier 10 heavies who went low could actually hit stuff - they pushed them off the hill after I died and Crab ran away. If Crab stayed up we probably win faster, I probably still die but there is a good chance those other tier 10s take less damage. I went up to support Crab - those meds are a lot less likely to peek into a 50B and a T-62A then any one of us alone. That 50B probably would not have peeked if Crab was slightly in front of me, as he loses the trade. 

 

I wouldn't have went up if it was me and Crab alone, but with 4 other tier 10 heavies committed there is really no other option. I had to give them a chance to take the hill instead of ceding the bushes where those mediums could spot them on the way up. 

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I was the one trying to get Crab to stay up on the hill. With those mediums in that position taking windmill forces them to expose to fire in order to dig us out. 

 

That was my initial thought... you have a bunch of guys coming up behind you, moving up behind the windmill helps keep their guys lit (good for your arty) and either forces the mediums back (giving your support more freedom to move up uncontested) or they have to push up and expose themselves to your arty/support to try and dig you out.  It sucks for you because you will be their entire focus and will likely get smacked around more than you'd prefer, but in the bigger picture it's the best option for the team as a whole.

 

Backing off or running away is the best option for you individually, but not the best option for the team as whole.

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The only option is to go down and away.  You want consistent play out of yourself and that's exactly the kind of herpderp moves you need to eliminate from your game if you want to pass a certain level. The less damage you take in situations like these the longer you will stay alive in a battle and the more time you will have to leverage your superior skill especially on a map where good knowledge of the spotting system and positioning play a huge role.

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The only option is to go down and away.  You want consistent play out of yourself and that's exactly the kind of herpderp moves you need to eliminate from your game if you want to pass a certain level. The less damage you take in situations like these the longer you will stay alive in a battle and the more time you will have to leverage your superior skill especially on a map where good knowledge of the spotting system and positioning play a huge role.

 

Herpderp moves that win the game (doesn't matter if you're alive at the end, etc.) don't need to be eliminated. No amount of spotting and positioning knowledge saves you when you lose the hill in Malinovka. Unless your team comp. happens to be really good for a forest camo camp, losing the hill means losing the game 90% of the time. 

 

@Crab I would have stayed on the hill, given that you could have used the windmill + 50B coming up. 

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Watching the stream and comparing to your SS (when the decision had to be made), there's a 12 seconds window that your 50b needed to be in a position to support you ... if the 2 mediums get a little ballsy and land 2 shots the enemy 50b would have shown up to finish you off while still behind the windmill with your tank between him and the other 50b partially/completely blocking shots for him, worst and most likely scenario here you get killed first then the 50b dies 20 seconds later to the meds/50b/arty.

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