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PurdueKev

Playstyle differences? Casemate vs turreted TD's

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I have run a few searches in the forum for this...  It is often implied or suggested that the two types of TD's are played differently, but I haven't yet come across a description of exactly what one does differently in terms of employing a casemate vs a turreted TD...

 

For the experienced players, assuming you agree that there are playstyle differences, can you put into words what you do differently with each type?  Do you choose different map locations, more vs less aggressive, etc?  It is certainly logical that the casemate and turreted TD's have obviously different strengths and weaknesses (rotating turret vs traversing, etc) but how does that relate to your strategy and decision-making at the start of and during a game?

 

What spurs my question:  I currently have two tier 5 TD's in my garage, Wolverine and StuG IIIG.  I have a similar # of battles in each, the crews are similarly experienced (3/4 through the 1st skill for the StuG, 90+% througyh 1st skill for Wolverine), I run both with camo and binocs, both are elited and running the top modules - but my WR in the Wolverine is a lot higher (58% to 42%), and my survivability in the StuG is comparatively atrocious.  Certainly, the turreted TD feels much more comfortable and intuitive for me in terms of using hard cover, using hull down opportuntunites and getting into solid firing positions, and so it makes sense that the stats would show that.  But as far as I am aware the StuG is a reasonably effective example of a casemate TD for its tier, so I want to learn to make it work before continuing up that line.

 

For purposes of my question, I suppose I'm more interested in the general comparison of the two categories of TD's than any specific comparison between the Wolverine and the StuG...

 

Thanks!

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Turreted TDs are more flexible, and have a easier time dealing with multiple enemies. To differentiate them from normal tanks, the turret traverse speed of a turreted TD is anemic. Depending on the amount of armor a turreted TD has, it either adopts the position of pseudo-heavy or support platform. This rule also applies to Casemate TDs, but they are more reliant on smart positioning. They are also much more prone to being circles, out-flanked, or being overwhelmed in general.

A turreted TD can stare down a larger amount of enemies with slightly worse but more flexible firepower. Casemate TDs have a arc of influence. What they're looking at is in for a world of hurt, but anything they're not facing can be a threat to their survival.

It comes down to two things to consider

Is there a turret?

Turreted~ More flex, weaker firepower: less reliant on positioning

Casemate~ Concentrated firepower: pick prominent firing lanes

Is there armor/camo?

Armor~ Pseudo-heavy: front line, pushing and bouncing the enemy

Camo~ Sniper/Support tank: second or third line, far enough to play vision games, but close enough to be useful.

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Even among these categories, there are vast differences in play-style. For example, if you try to play your Jagdpanther like a T95, you can reasonably assume that you're going to get your ass handed to you, and if you try to play your Hellcat like a T110E4 or vice versa, it's a reasonable assumption that you won't do too well.

 

That being said, the main difference with camo snipers like the SU-100 versus the Hellcat is that whereas you have to remain relatively far back to avoid constantly disturbing the reticle with a casemate TD, with a turreted one, you can close the engagement distances (while still remaining camo'd) and be more versatile without spending all day fully reaiming shots, or sit in a bush without traversing the hull to retain camo values. 

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With casemate TDs you should remember that turning your hull will remove some of your camo, so it's important to be positioned in direction where the enemy is most likely to be spotted, especially at mid-long range. Some casemate TDs can also lead a charge (or at least they used to) using their frontal amour or scaring people away with their big gun, while turreted ones are usually slower or less armoured. 

 

I play mostly agile casemate TD's - JagdPanther II, SU-122-44, E-25, SU-101, so I don't really know the aspects of really heavy ones like the JagdTiger or T28.

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That's just two examples. AT2 at tier 5 is completely different again.

The gun arc makes a big difference as well.

Stug is actually not that bad though, you should stay a bit father back I think.

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Thanks everyone for the great replies so far. It definitely feels as though it is easier to improvise a good firing position with the Wolverine while I am on the move - with the StuG, I have to plan out 3 or 4 known positions in advance, thinking "I am going here, and if I need to retreat I will go back here, or if we win this side I will advance up here."

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Fuck the definitions of what a tank SHOULD do because of its class, that's one of the easiest ways to get yourself stuck at 50%

 

Casemate TDs should stay back? What about T95, 122/44, even JPE?

 

Turreted TDs can be comfortable about moving up? Stuff like Borsig and Hellcat MUST stay back

 

Turreted TDs fighting on multiple flanks? T28P or even WTP4 are terrible at those

 

Just play it how it plays best.

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TDs are so broadly varied as to defy categorization based on 1-2 characteristics.

 

You have DPM vs Alpha (ISU vs AT7)

Mobility (Hellcat vs T95)

Turret

Armor (T110E3 vs Waffentragers)

Camo (Ferdinand vs Borsig)

 

To your specific example, the Stug (assuming you're using the 75mm) leans heavily towards camo abuse and DPM.  The Wolverine is a bit more all-around, with better armor and worse camo. It's also more forgiving because of its general flexibility.  No matter what you do with a Wolverine, you can be somewhat effective.  The Stug on the other hand is only good at one thing (camo sniping), but it's REALLY good at it.  This is a hard role to pull off for a newer player, though, and the low alpha means that a screwup will lead to a 100 damage potato game instead of a 400 damage potato game.  How did you do with the Hetzer derp gun, or something else more forgiving like that?

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Having played a lot of TD's, I have to agree with EchelonIII.

 

Lumping all turreted and all casemate TD's into a generalization is a bad idea.

 

Asking specifically on how to play the Wolverine vs the StuGIII is a much better approach.

Playing to a particular TD's strengths is usually the way to go, as the weakness are just too bad to comprnsate for.

 

The StuGIII has a limited VR ... 330 m iirc, but good camo and a decent gun arc of 15 degree+/- 80 mm frontal armor and -7 gun depression.  I would run Camo Net/Rammer/Binocs.  I go binocs for those situations where you have to spot for yourself.

 

The M10 Wolverine has great VR 370 m good camo a decent gun good mobilty and excellent gun depression of -10 degrees.

I would run Camo Net/Rammer/Binocs on this as well.  I go binocs to ensure that I am at the top end of the vision game food chain.

 

The StuGIII has a better gun camo and armor, but the superior gun depression and mobilty on the M10 allows you to get in a little better spots where you can hopefully reverse slope or go hull down to minimize exposure to fire and compensate for its lesser armor.

 

As mentioned before the casemate StuGIII has to find a good firing lane.  Remember to lock your tracks to you don't accidentally move.  Set up to take full advantage of your 30 degree gun arc to fire without moving.  At distance the the StuGIII can frontally hit and pen most tier 5/6 heavies as well as win the vision game.  The M10 will need to flank many of them to do so reliably without spamming gold ammo.

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I think it is more like, has it useful armor? This should be better characteristic to define where to stand.

The worst thing to imagine is always to have only one toptier, a T95, and he camps in base. Just because he thinks he is a TD and TDs need to camp far far in the back.

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TDs are so broadly varied as to defy categorization based on 1-2 characteristics.

 

You have DPM vs Alpha (ISU vs AT7)

Mobility (Hellcat vs T95)

Turret

Armor (T110E3 vs Waffentragers)

Camo (Ferdinand vs Borsig)

 

To your specific example, the Stug (assuming you're using the 75mm) leans heavily towards camo abuse and DPM.  The Wolverine is a bit more all-around, with better armor and worse camo. It's also more forgiving because of its general flexibility.  No matter what you do with a Wolverine, you can be somewhat effective.  The Stug on the other hand is only good at one thing (camo sniping), but it's REALLY good at it.  This is a hard role to pull off for a newer player, though, and the low alpha means that a screwup will lead to a 100 damage potato game instead of a 400 damage potato game.  How did you do with the Hetzer derp gun, or something else more forgiving like that?

 

Yes, I'm using the 75 on the StuG...  with the Hetzer I actually had OK stats (60% WR) but only 30 games in it, it was way back when I was just trying to get to the next tank and didn't think about crew training etc, so probably not a significant sampling. I can't remember if I had the derp for most of that or not.  My WR looking back in the T18 and T40 (which I would presume can count as "forgiving") was not horrible but again only 30-ish games in each.

 

What I am trying to work on the most right now for any tank I play to is to make my gun more of a factor in each game, to avoid the low-dmg potato games where I have no positive impact on the outcome of a battle (you hit the nail on the head with that - I have way too many games with the StuG where I get off maybe one shot and then I'm blapped).  Based on the StuG's strengths and weaknesses you guys are describing, I can see where I sometimes struggle with it right now - though in the past couple weeks I have had several nice games in the StuG where I seemed to "get it."

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SPEAKING of casemate td's, I'm most of the way through the T25/AT (not enjoying it)...is it worth pursuing this line any further? 

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SPEAKING of casemate td's, I'm most of the way through the T25/AT (not enjoying it)...is it worth pursuing this line any further? 

 

The E3 is a fucking beast of a tank. And if you're not camping in the most retarded places and bushes with it like most pubbies do it can easily carry games solo in the current game. Just go to the main corridor and wreck it. I'm running it with double repair kit as well as optics+cola. Had a 5k spotting damage sand river game already and the double repair kit has made a couple of people mad already :)

 

That being said I skipped the T28 and T95. T95 just too slow and the T28 is atrocious (or so I heard). So yeah, if you can stay with it you'll be rewarded :)

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