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JunkersHiryu

My Opinion On The Real Scourge of WoT

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As a streamer that is now collecting money, it is in your interest to make this thread in order to appear nice (qqbaby) so you can appeal to the masses of shitters out there and in turn get more $. You are hardly in a neutral position to talk about how the community self polices.

 

Case in point, troll platoons. If there wasn't a backlash, you would have epic tier mismatch every game. The reason there aren't nearly as many, is because we are assholes and deal with them, making it unfun for the trolls to platoon that way.

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No, you're wrong, Junkers.  You're passing the blame of the real problem you've found onto XVM when XVM is merely a catalyst for the problem you've identified.

 

There's more to XVM than just displaying players' WN8s.  A quick look at their website will show you all the other things their mod offers - customizable text fields, damage log, customizable sixth sense, clan/player icons, minimap enhancement - but the only thing you complained about is the presentation of player ratings and how others change their play based on that information.  Of that, it's not the part about changing the way you play based on the information you're presented in the game, because I know you must do that all the time for the success that you have, as does anyone else that wants to be any good at this or any game or any thing.

 

The problem you seem to have is that players are changing their behavior based on information that isn't supposed to be there.  WG doesn't display these stats to players in the game (because new/bad players would "get confused"), but XVM will let you do that through grabbing the stats right from WG APIs and then putting them into the game.  And then that, as you say, brings about the mental defeat in players of saying that they or their team aren't good enough to win if they see players with good stats on the other side or that they will get carried if they see players with good stats on their side.  In both cases, those players then opt for the laziest route of not doing anything and submit to letting the better players control the battle.  You seem to think that this is the fault of XVM, but then you go on to contradict yourself by providing other sources for players to determine who is good and who isn't that are built right into the game, such as clan tags or barrel marks, or player names of people who are particularly notable.  Adding fog of war to randoms will only partially "solve" this problem, dealing with players on one team giving up from seeing much better players on the other team, but doing nothing about those who get lazy from seeing better players on their own team who they think can just carry them.

 

This is not a universal attitude though.  I don't imagine there are very many blues or purples out there who think things like, "I see better players on the other team, so I may as well give up," or, "I see better players on my team, so I may as well let them win for me."  Instead, I'd imagine most blue or purples would say, "I see better players on the other team, so I'd better up my game to compete with them," or, "I see better players on my team, so I'd better support them as much as possible," or, "I see better players on my team, so I'd better up my game to do as well as they're doing."  These kinds of players didn't look at stronger players on either side and choose to get lazy.  They chose to get better until they became as good or better than those other players, and then they became blue and purple.  Meanwhile, all of the bottomfeeder tomatos and pumpkins took up the attitude you described and became more like the vegetables that they are.  XVM expedited this process by showing everyone more easily how "good" every player was, so instead of relying on clan tags or positions they went to or kills they were getting, players could see right away the history of how well everyone performed and react accordingly.  Tomatoes and pumpkins had an easier time of making excuses to not play well and blues and purples had an easier time of figuring out who else was good that they needed to try and be better than.

 

This kind of quick identification of who is "good" is also the reason behind why people are trying to find XVM camo accounts, because as you have found yourself in the last two games before you made this rant, people tend to target down the better players to remove them and their influence from the game.  It is a mindset of, "I see better players on the other team, so it's worthwhile (for winning) to sacrifice myself to remove this better player from the game."  Despite recognizing this and having it focused in your mind, you spent those two games playing alone in forward-line tanks, rushing into areas unscouted with many enemy tanks still unspotted and locations unknown, not taking appropriate cover from artillery, and with little to no backup.  You do all this, even though XVM, and sometimes your chat, indicates to you that your team could not be counted on.  I couldn't help but notice this in contrast to when you talked about arty being broken, but saying it's not the worst thing because you can play around it and that it's your fault if you get hit by it, and then you go on to bitch about XVM being this terrible thing that makes you an easy target while proceeding in battle to make yourself an even easier target.

 

There's also something to be said about where you're playing and who you're playing with.  You say that XVM is the scourge of WoT, but all I see is you playing in random battles against shitty awful bad not good great players.  I doubt you would make this kind of complaint in the context of team battles or companies or skirmishes or clan wars because those are all formats where you get to choose your teammates, and I'm sure you tend to choose teammates around your same skill level.  As I've said before, these are not the kinds of players with this find-excuses-to-be-lazy attitude that you are finding in random battles.  There is no complaining about these teammates not doing anything in the game because they have other great players on the team who will do it for them.  They are also those great players, and they all got to where they are because they didn't have a lazy attitude.  For the other side of the match, if you get paired up against bads, it may trigger their lazy attitude and result in a sweep, but if you get paired up against other blues and purples, they will put up a strong resistance.  Even though they may look at your team as if it's GOAT, they will still try to play and get better because they want to become (more like) the GOAT.

 

Do you see the trend here yet?

 

The problem that is causing games to be bad for you is not that bad players are looking at XVM and being bad.  It's that bad players are being bad.  This is ruining things for you in "the game" (really just a large subset of the game) because the game is not designed to take these bad players with their bad attitudes and put them in their own bad corner to play with themselves away from the good players.  Saying nothing of whether it could or should happen, this is the motivation behind skill-based MM which, surprise surprise, has become much more popular an idea ever since people started recognizing the vast differences in skill level among players of any random battles team.  You have reprieve from this already through your clan and your contacts that you may play the other team-based formats and never have to interact with a tomato being on your team ever again, but it is (or seems to be) not feasible that you can avoid random battles altogether, because they are the prime location for grinding out tanks and crews.

 

It is by the design of the game, and thus the responsibility of WG, that you will inevitably be paired up with players who have bad attitudes.  They will have these attitudes whether XVM exists or it doesn't.  XVM is merely a catalyst for this behavior, giving bad players an even easier time to make an excuse to continue being bad.  It's similar to the relationship that the Battle Assistant has with arty.  Everyone (minus WG) already understands how broken and stupid artillery is, but there is a degree of obscurity in this (and also a reason why arty is bad) from artillery having a much different interface with the game through a top-down mode/playstyle that no other type of tank has.  When the Battle Assistant changes this by reframing the way arty plays into the language common to other tanks, it becomes even that much more clear of how broken arty is that even WG says that arty will need to be nerfed if an interface like the Battle Assistant provides becomes standard.  Likewise, bad players play badly in any case and will look for excuses to be lazy and not try to play well, badly, or at all.  XVM makes it easier to create those excuses by providing bads with a language of numbers that are easier to read and understand and more common to what people do all the time than the language of internet tanks that bads can't adapt to.  Battle Assistant makes arty worse and XVM makes bads worse, but arty and bads will be bad without Battle Assistant and XVM, because arty and bads are the real problem and not Battle Assistant or XVM.

 

So if you think bads ruining your games is a bad thing, congratulations, you've just recognized a design flaw that's been built into the game from the start and that most other people were able to recognize without having XVM to pin blame onto.

 

If you're still in the mood for more reading, I recommend you check out this article about teamwork in Dota which covers the lack of accountability demanded of players in modern random matchmaking games (which is how tomatoes get away with being tomatoes).  If you're interested in reading something about the problem of player behavior, which you mentioned briefly in your OP, you can look at this article covering toxicity in Dota and this one about toxicity in general.

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[snip]

 

Honestly, I think they should remove stats in random pubs and make team battles as a competitive mode with skill based MM. They'll have to change WG rating to an ELO system that's only affected by team battles. Maybe throw in some incentives (like more prominent ELO rating display or maybe even a small amount of gold per win or greater money earning potential that scales with your ELO in a way so that it's still profitable to play at low ranks, but it's not super cash farming). It's a bit more awkward to work out than other games because WoT has a lot of MMORPG elements to it, but LoL did it... Though I kind of doubt the LoL community ever worries about hindering baddie progression on their heroes/champions/whatever.

 

Hell yeah! The problem for me is that in order to get into a good clan to do more team battle modes, I have to get better stats in randoms. That means I stress out in randoms, don't enjoy the game, and play worse than ever. I would say that the problem with team battle modes currently in the game is that there is no intermediary in terms of time commitment to the game. Clan wars requires much work to grind to tier ten, especially without a premium account, then you have to dedicate your life to be on at the right time and get good stats, especially for busy IRL people. And then those clans merge down and dominate in strongholds against our intermediate level clans.

 

There is no good game mode for people like me, at the good but not great level, without the time or money to get tier ten easily with or without premium. If we go to teams, we are crushed by the top 100 clans. If we go to randoms, it is really hard to keep good random stats without losing the fun. What do you unicums think?

 

Yeah, that's social darwinism for ya.

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I don't think XVM changing the way people play is really a problem. After all, isn't that the point of it in the first place? Any good player is going to approach an engagement differently depending on the skill level of those involved. For example, if you run in to me, you're not going to approach the engagement the same way you would against a yellow or green. I know this for fact, cuz you did it to me last week lol. You stopped engaging tanks directly ahead of you and took me out instead, and it was completely the correct move, because if you hadn't I would have won my engagement against your pubbies and you didn't have the HP to survive when I came after you. You made the right call, and whether it was XVM specifically, or name recognition, or clan tag, or whatever, it doesn't matter, it was the right move to win the match.

 

I think the issue that comes from XVM stems mostly from the win chance. Whoever the actual fuck thought putting that in was going to cause anything but even more stupidity, was an idiot. I turned it off a loooooong time ago, but I can't even count the number of times I see pubbies in game asking what the chance is, or bitching about it. And the pubbies that don't know wtf they're doing in the first place are the ones that cause the most problems with it. Drowning themselves or playing like even bigger idiots just to get out of it faster. That is cancerous, but again, I don't think it's the biggest problem.

 

There are three main reasons why I think this game is dying, and all of them have been categorically ignored by WG, or fucked up even more:

 

1. RNG. Random things happening inconsistently, even if you know the cause, is not good for fun. It's frustrating, and nothing else. I had a streak a couple weeks ago where I was full HP ammo racked in my Type 59.....4 games in a row. I wasn't playing it any differently, RNG just decided I didn't need my turret anymore. Hasn't happened since. I had a week long stretch some months ago in which I could not hit/pen a single shot at any distance beyond 100m in the 183 and JPE. Not very accurate tanks, but ~200 matches, and not one. Not a single shot. That's too much random shit being injected in to what otherwise would have been a fun series of games.

 

2. Skill based play is practically non-existent, basically for reasons Kraft stated on page 1. Why bother doing anything but skirmishes? So that leaves random battles. With random team mates. That do random things for random reasons and throw random matches and randomly TK and randomly drown themselves, and randomly introduce more random. You can influence every match, but being powerless to decide the outcome of so many of them again detracts from the long term appeal of playing at all.

 

3. Arty/unbalanced vehicles. Arty is arty and everyone knows why it's broken as fuck, and everyone has their own speshul snowflake opinion on how to fix it. It's fucking broken. Your tank exploding for now apparent reason is not a good game mechanic, nor is allowing an entire group of players to participate in killing other players without risk to themselves. There's a reason the Nuke was removed from CoD. Unbalanced vehicles also encompasses what I call game-enders. things like the WT and 183. Tanks that if you come around a corner and discover sitting there, your match is over and there's nothing you can do about it. The 183 is less of a problem now,, but the WT is just as stupid as it always was. The average WR of the vehicles doesn't matter when they have some characteristic that is so extreme that they end someones match immediately. The 268 used to have DPM+450 pen. That was a stupid idea. Fun for whoever is playing it, absolute horse shit for everyone else. So they got rid of it......and then dropped an autoloader with the most accurate, fastest aiming gun in its tier, with 350+pen APCR, 560 alpha.....and 5 fucking shots with 2sec reload. There is nothing that survives that, outside of a Maus, and then only if some of the shots are low rolls. Even if you do survive, your match is effectively over. Couple vehicles like that, with 2k+ damage meteors landing on you from whothefuck knows where, and you've got a recipe for frustration and player base attrition.

 

There are a lot of minor annoyances in the game, just like any other game. Overall, WG has done a great job of putting a game together. However, the blatant problems, that have been problems since day one, and have been ignored or even inflamed since day one, are coming to a head and are killing the game. And WG doesn't know why, which I would find hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

 

TL;DR, XVM is an annoyance, but not game-breaking. There are much more severe issues that are ruining the fun that could be had.

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There is no single other game I know of where a mod allows for such a witch hunt on good players as World of Tanks. XVM is toxic on the gameplay and I'm gonna be straight and maybe a bit arrogant here: Everyone who disagrees just lacks the clue to properly understand the game. There is just certain things I personally cannot do in a battle just because of this mod. All other players don't have this issue. Just me. Where else has a mod such an impact on gameplay and basically puts an artificial ceiling on how much a good player can influence a game? Just think about how retarded that is.

 

The 4 minute battles is another thing. I don't think that's entirely on XVM but also a thing with the insane power creep of this game. Conq GC, FV 183, Waffle E-100 for instance are just broken tanks and neither should be in the game. They add crazy amounts of RNG and either you get annihilated in a second if you get spotted or the dude misses and gets annihilated in return because his slow/paper tank gets spotted across the map. Stuff either has over the top alpha, a shot arc that let's you one shot almost every tank or a clip nowadays... It's like some kids are in charge of this game thinking "wouldn't it be amazing if that thing had this huuuuuuge ass cannon and could like wreck everything else with one shot? Like wouldn't that be super cool?"

 

The last thing are the maps. Some maps are just so incredibly shit by design as in being huge with two flanks as far apart from each other as possible (northwest, highway) or just flat out crappy and one sided (mines, ruinberg). Both makes for quick games because if one team has two or more of the better side, better players or better lineup there's really nothing you can do.

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I came in here expecting an generic arty rant, suprised that it was something fundamental: internet toxicity fueled by XVM witchunts.

My definition of WoT cancer is the maps. Too much emphasis on the corridors. The traffic is generic and exploitable. The re-skins look great, but I want something more complicated than open fields, the action on opposite corners of the map, and hills

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There is no single other game I know of where a mod allows for such a witch hunt on good players as World of Tanks. XVM is toxic on the gameplay and I'm gonna be straight and maybe a bit arrogant here: Everyone who disagrees just lacks the clue to properly understand the game. There is just certain things I personally cannot do in a battle just because of this mod. All other players don't have this issue. Just me. Where else has a mod such an impact on gameplay and basically puts an artificial ceiling on how much a good player can influence a game? Just think about how retarded that is.

 

The 4 minute battles is another thing. I don't think that's entirely on XVM but also a thing with the insane power creep of this game. Conq GC, FV 183, Waffle E-100 for instance are just broken tanks and neither should be in the game. They add crazy amounts of RNG and either you get annihilated in a second if you get spotted or the dude misses and gets annihilated in return because his slow/paper tank gets spotted across the map. Stuff either has over the top alpha, a shot arc that let's you one shot almost every tank or a clip nowadays... It's like some kids are in charge of this game thinking "wouldn't it be amazing if that thing had this huuuuuuge ass cannon and could like wreck everything else with one shot? Like wouldn't that be super cool?"

 

The last thing are the maps. Some maps are just so incredibly shit by design as in being huge with two flanks as far apart from each other as possible (northwest, highway) or just flat out crappy and one sided (mines, ruinberg). Both makes for quick games because if one team has two or more of the better side, better players or better lineup there's really nothing you can do.

 

Agreed with the last two points.

 

As for your first one, it happens in every other game assuming you make a name for yourself by being good at the game. It's just easier to smurf in every other popular game since WoT grinds are incredibly Hitler. But then again, every other game focuses on esport/competitive game modes instead of their equivalent of random battles.

 

 

I came in here expecting an generic arty rant, suprised that it was something fundamental: internet toxicity fueled by XVM witchunts.

 

It's time for you to go Hazama. You're not good with this sort of thing.

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I came in here expecting an generic arty rant, suprised that it was something fundamental: internet toxicity fueled by XVM witchunts.

My definition of WoT cancer is the maps. Too much emphasis on the corridors. The traffic is generic and exploitable. The re-skins look great, but I want something more complicated than open fields, the action on opposite corners of the map, and hills

Man, dat XVM camo... And that's not even offtopic :D

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I really liked the articles posted by Kuroialty, well worth reading. It seems that game companies deliberately try to level out the skill gradient by dumbing down the gameplay so that skill doesnt prevail all the time. Games that rely heavily on teams of randoms mean that bad players can win sometimes and good players lose, which brings the unskilled masses into the game and boosts profits.

 

XVM just makes it worse, by highlighting those who are the biggest threat - its the only reason I run stats even though I'm the guy who sustains WN8.

 

But if we think a bit harder, there are other features of this game that are probably there to level out the skill gradient: 

  • Gold rounds
  • Autoaim

Another point made in those articles was that players raging against bads in a team battle game is far more likely when there is no 'sandbox' mode for players to learn the game in; instead, they 'learn' in the live server. We've all seen the 'red' E100 in the tier ten battle (on our team of course). There is no PvE 'sandbox' mode.  Its almost as if WG wants us to get mad.

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I really liked the articles posted by Kuroialty, well worth reading. It seems that game companies deliberately try to level out the skill gradient by dumbing down the gameplay so that skill doesnt prevail all the time. Games that rely heavily on teams of randoms mean that bad players can win sometimes and good players lose, which brings the unskilled masses into the game and boosts profits.

 

XVM just makes it worse, by highlighting those who are the biggest threat - its the only reason I run stats even though I'm the guy who sustains WN8.

 

But if we think a bit harder, there are other features of this game that are probably there to level out the skill gradient: 

  • Gold rounds
  • Autoaim

Another point made in those articles was that players raging against bads in a team battle game is far more likely when there is no 'sandbox' mode for players to learn the game in; instead, they 'learn' in the live server. We've all seen the 'red' E100 in the tier ten battle (on our team of course). There is no PvE 'sandbox' mode.  Its almost as if WG wants us to get mad.

 

The most popular games outside of shitty console MP games (there are people who play FPS games with a controller in 2015 because auto aim makes you MLG pro) have very high learning curves (DotA, LoL, CSGO, StarKorea 2, etc). Yes, those games have gamemodes that dumb down the game a bit, but those modes are usually meant for the casual players that couldn't give two shits about the competitive scene or are just starting. In WoT terms, that's what the random battles are for. CWs/SHs/Tournaments are supposed to be end game content that players that want to experience a competitive PVP play.

 

Either way, no pro wins 100% of the time against bad players. Not in any game (though it's very unlikely in games like DotA/LoL). To think otherwise is requires you to deny statistics. Honestly, it's not even the core game mechanics' fault that baddies can win "too often"; it's more of the nature of how random battles work (difference in tank tiers, tank balance, RNG map selection, 15 vs 15 being inherently very chaotic, etc).

 

Gold rounds are spammed mostly by good players since winning is important to us. I never once shot a gold round until I hit 2600 recent WN8, and then it was spam city afterwards. Have you heard of a good player shooting AP in T-54, E-100, etc? They're very rare.

 

Autoaim is a feature that anyone can use free of charge. It doesn't really even hurt the game that much since this isn't an FPS or anything.

 

Or, you know, maybe random battles was supposed to be that sandbox were new/bad players learned how to play the damn game? Maybe the consequences of random battles weren't suppoesd to be that significant? Also PVE doesn't help jack with PVP in most MP games.

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Random battles are not fun atm because of Individual Missions. With people being exceptionally retarded, it's harder to achieve super high win rates as there is more randomness introduced into the system. Randomness is bad for good players because it's a force that pulls winrate closer to average, i.e. it pushes everyone's winrate closer to the 50% mark. This randomness is compounded by having a large surplus of arty players ever since Individual Missions came out. With more arty, there is just a higher likelihood you have a shit game because of it - particularly if you're playing from a purple account or a sheriff account. These 2 main reasons - both caused by IMs - just make random battles completely not fun at the moment.

 

So ok, I won't play random battles. Let's do something team oriented. Except no1 at all wants to do anything but weekly skirmishes. Weekly skirmishes have single-handedly killed silver league. Silver league in particular because that's approximately the level you need to be earning 10k/week consistently from skirmish. So why would anyone in their right mind commit the time to practice and to a 3 month league season when they can earn 2-3x as much gold on a weekly basis just by beating up on retards? This rings particularly true for the silver league competitors that practically have no chance of making it to the gold league - what is the point if they will just continue to stay in silver? This is essentially the reason behind the insanely high silver league attrition rate 2 seasons in a row. All the average to bad teams pretty much just quit because there's no hope of making it to gold league, and there's no point to staying in silver with such low gold payouts.

 

Weekly skirmishes have also pretty much killed CW, because anyone in reasonably good clans can make 5k+ gold per in skirmish, which is at least double (usually at lot more) of what any top clan is willing to pay on a weekly basis.  Even -G- who happily sits on 17k gold per day is not paying more than ~2k per week to the average active soldier. So why bother doing clan stuff anyways, really?

 

And so, looking to do team-based activities ends up with doing weekly skirmishes, which are completely not fun because it's just beating up on retards for mad gold. There's no adversity at all.

 

The bolded portion is, IMO, a good argument for WG to increase the gold value of all (or at least most) of the provinces on the CW map, thus making CW more worth our time. Of course, this would lead to an increase in the pubbies' constant braying about how all the top clans get their CW gold "handed" to them via diplo rather than "earning" it through fights like someone with e-honoure would.

 

But to get back on topic: co-sign everything Junkers said.

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That's completely untrue when you reach the extreme ends I'd like to add.

 

The actually smart people would avoid games altogether because they know they're a waste of time, or leave it as a casual activity. I've stopped playing regularly, and only to fuel my ego after high school ended for that reason. If they did play, they'd appear as green or blue out of sheer talent, but have no desire to improve, I think. 

 

But yet the indicators showing that reds and yellows are bad at RL tend to remain true.

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But yet the indicators showing that reds and yellows are bad at RL tend to remain true.

 

I wonder what the indicators say about blues and up being vaguely autistic and anti-social?

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I'm a shit play and XVM affects my play.  I know this because I had a game last night where I loaded into a tier 8 match in my IS-6 and we had two platoons of tier 8 tanks.  One platoons WN8 barely out-paced their win rate, the other platoon had 2 white stat players (I thought they might be rerolls but they were tooned with a dude that had like 47 wn8 over 1k battles) and a grey.  So here we are, our 7 tier 8s (including me) up against to tier 8 platoons from top clams.  The game was 9-0 before I even made it into position.

 

I don't really fault new players like this because WG wants them to spend $50 on a premium tank but they get in WAY over their head.  These guys don't know there are forums, they don't know they can go to youtube and get somewhat of a basic education, and most probably don't care.  I bought my first T10 tank after 8700 battles because everyone told me to take it slow.  I want to get better, I want to carry, I want to be GOOD because I'm competitive and have the drive.  However, reading forum posts only goes so far.  Watching your own replays is fine if you make a terrible play and can see it.  Many times I don't even know what I did wrong or what I can improve or do differently.

 

Then I found Zeven on twitch.  He would run pubs, and when he was solo, he was CONSTANTLY explaining what he was doing and why and what he would do if x, y, or z had happened.  I watched him every night and I learned.  I learned where to play the maps, I learned strategic points, arty safe spots, how to surf Prok, and I got better.  Before I had to take a forced 5 month break I had managed to break into mid blue recent, but that break brought me back down to solid green and now I'm having to learn all over again.

 

New job and I can't watch Zeven all night any more so I get to catch him in strongholds which certainly don't teach as much.

 

TL;DR  There aren't enough TEACHING resources / Mentoring programs.  I can teach a red to become green.  I've done it twice.  Once for a friend and once for my son by teaching them basic game mechanics.  How to angle, side scrape and look at your mini-map and detect threats on every reload.  Once you get these things down and hit green this is when the amazing skill gap between green and blue kick in.  This is the area where you have to start picking up in intangibles.  Reading battle flow, knowing when to push, when do retreat, basically HOW to balance that fine line between aggressive and passive.  That fine line, which I can't get down, is what I think removes inconsistency.  Right now my games every night range between 145WN8 and 5000+WN8 but always end up averageing about 1200-1600 when I'm done with anywhere from a 40% to 70% winrate.

 

I have games where I do EVERYTHING right and I KNOW that is a unicum plays every...single...game... but I just can't do it yet because I can't grasp the intangebles.

 

Now, I typed all that for a reason.  I go in to battle, knowing everything I have to do to improve and I'm ready to work then I look and I see we have 6 top tier noobs against 6 top tier vets and everything I have to remember just went out the window because I know I have to follow them (half the team) and see if I can't get them to actually do something on their flank than file out single file and die.   When they don't and die and take me with them in the first minute, it is back out to try again, but everything I need to remember is now just that much further pushed away.

 

I think I'd like to see XVM go away.  I remember serveral weekends when the servers were down that we had no stats and it was refreshing.  I think we also need more community mentoring programs.  

 

I tried to get in M--M when The_Millard announced it but there was no room for me (I was orange at the time).  And when I came back M-I-T had just closed recruiting.  It is still my goal to get into a clan that can help me improve. 

 

This game, to me, is like chess with tanks.  We need a way that PPs can annotate replays and make them available for the heathen masses.  Or a video series on maps on where you can play, where the firing lanes are, kills zones, terrible spots, etc.

 

From the mouth of scrub, to you oh holy ones. :)

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The 4 minute battles is another thing. I don't think that's entirely on XVM but also a thing with the insane power creep of this game. Conq GC, FV 183, Waffle E-100 for instance are just broken tanks and neither should be in the game. They add crazy amounts of RNG and either you get annihilated in a second if you get spotted or the dude misses and gets annihilated in return because his slow/paper tank gets spotted across the map. Stuff either has over the top alpha, a shot arc that let's you one shot almost every tank or a clip nowadays... It's like some kids are in charge of this game thinking "wouldn't it be amazing if that thing had this huuuuuuge ass cannon and could like wreck everything else with one shot? Like wouldn't that be super cool?"

 

 

The 4 minute battle is exactly what WG want. The quicker you are back in the garage buying gold rounds/food/med kits the sooner you are going to realize that tier 10 cannot be run without a premium account and you buy one. Happened to me. I rushed up to the t57 without a premium account or spending any gold.. Yes the crew was terrible. It only took me 10 games in the t57 to realize it was unsustainable and I should have spent real money keeping my crew in top condition and making the credit drought more tolerable.

 

4 min games is exactly the type of game WG wants because it gets us shitters spending money.

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Hello all,

 

Enjoyed reading the various perspectives of people in this thread.

 

Here's a perspective from someone 'on the other side', if you will - my XVM overall shows 1158 WN8 and mid-yellow, certainly not one of the tomatoes you purples would rely upon in-game. My recent, however, has been floating in the 1500-1700 range.

 

So here's my perspective from the 'unreliable baddie teammate' side.

 

I could argue that I don't belong in the 'baddie' category. I watch Zeven, QB, Circon and learn whatever I can from wotlabs articles and forums. In a match, I have a decent idea of where to go in what tank I'm playing. I have basics such as bush-ing, sidescraping, hull-downing, tracking, weakspot-ing, more or less down. However, I DO know that I belong in the 'baddie' category, because my decision-making skills and situational awareness do take the occasional trip to timbuktoo. I also sometimes get overconfident/stupid/braindead and get 1200 WN8 games because, well, inner tomato rearing its ugly head again. Inconsistency is my personal demon. So, where am I? Unreliable or reliable?

 

XVM is not a bane for me. I have not activated 'Battle win probability' for a while now. However, I do keep the player stats on, because I keep an eye out for who are the competent players on my team, and try my best to support them in the battle if I can. This has both pros and cons. Pros: I help the green/blue/purple to carry the battle, using what skills I have. At least we think along the same principles - e.g. tag-teaming an enemy, using terrain and buildings, etc. It's easier to work together with a random good player than with a bad. Cons: Being the semi-tomato that I am, I inevitably f*** up sometime or other. If the green/blue/purple was relying on me to keep his flank clear, and I make a mistake and mess up, I let him down... thereby contributing to the frustration that you good players feel in-game when teamed with tomatoes. "F***ing noob, how hard is it to guard that flank?"

 

I'm still learning. Sometimes I tend to dismiss 'yellow overall' players on the other team as well, not realising that sometimes their stats are, like mine, a relic of their tomato days, and they're actually playing at a substantially higher level than their average stats would suggest. And yet I know I'm lightyears from infallible. I get frustrated at myself when I attempt to assist or work with a good player, and due to inexperience/lack of skill let him/the team down.

 

I also share your (good players') frustrations about some players being hopelessly casually bad. I see no way around it myself. I share many of szerek's feelings above.

 

I want to thank all those who have been taking time to reply my questions, and to write all those helpful articles and guides. I recognise and appreciate the difficulties with doing this teaching/guiding in-game. What can be done about the game? In a completely selfish way, keep teaching us. Every tomato you convert from tomatoness is one less potential baddie on your team. Yes, I understand that we will never be able to convert all, but still... I always harbour this secret dream that someday I, a yellow, can help make a purple's day in a "34% win chance" game that seemed all but hopeless. And I want you to know that every article you've written, every newb question you've answered, every hour you've streamed and explained your decision-making and thought processes, every time you've swallowed your frustrations in order to give advice in-game, you've made a world of a difference to those like me.

 

Edit: My answer doesn't really address the "XVM is gamebreaking" point, but rather to give my view on the "pub baddies are gamebreaking" issue.

 

Sorry, at the risk of going out of topic, I'll just say that I'm absolutely going to hate the accuracy nerf when it happens. Please tell me all the skills of aiming at weakspots, tracking, module-damaging etc that I've learnt aren't going to be completely useless now? :(

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But yet the indicators showing that reds and yellows are bad at RL tend to remain true.

 

What are these indicators? I don't really disagree, just interested. At low tiers or low battle count being bad is understandable, this game can be pretty confusing and I think it attracts a lot of people who don't generally play other games. I just always wonder who are these people that spend huge amounts of time, like 20K or more battles, and still have absolutely no idea what to do. 20K battles is what...1500 or so hours of playing, assuming pretty short average game duration for these guys. That is pretty close to amount of time you need to learn a new language. 

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The most popular games outside of shitty console MP games (there are people who play FPS games with a controller in 2015 because auto aim makes you MLG pro) have very high learning curves (DotA, LoL, CSGO, StarKorea 2, etc).

 

At least 75% of those have skill based matchmaking. Easy mode scaling difficulty with skill.

 

From my LoL play even that doesn't stop raging about baddies. Every twit thinks they deserve to be in top rank matches and its their teams holding them back from getting there.

 

Toxicity occurs because there are no consequences on the internet. And not in the anonymous sense. Jump onto any huge forum and act like an ass. You won't get banned for being a tool unless you break the ineffective forum rules repeatedly. IRL if you were an ass you'd stop getting invited back. Its actually rare that you can talk to a thousand people in person, so social ostracisation works because small groups blackball people who are wankers. Forums break that, so many people means you can't kick out someone annoying, there are plenty of others who like them or else continue to engage with them. If they don't swear they're usually safe from the moderators.

 

MMOs and MOBAs are just going to be packed with douchery because there is noone able to eject the douches.

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I wonder what the indicators say about blues and up being vaguely autistic and anti-social?

There is indeed a slight positive correlation between incidence of autism and intelligence, and of anti-social behavior and intelligence.

 

What are these indicators? I don't really disagree, just interested. At low tiers or low battle count being bad is understandable, this game can be pretty confusing and I think it attracts a lot of people who don't generally play other games. I just always wonder who are these people that spend huge amounts of time, like 20K or more battles, and still have absolutely no idea what to do. 20K battles is what...1500 or so hours of playing, assuming pretty short average game duration for these guys. That is pretty close to amount of time you need to learn a new language.

 

The what I'm trying to hypothesize is that is that there is a positive correlation between being bad and staying bad at WoT and having an inability to learn or a refusal to learn, and I'm linking that it with the already-proven relationship between education and RL success.

If a player is shit and remains shit, one of three things is possible.

 

1. He is ignorant of his ignorance (i.e. he doesn't know he has a problem, which indicates he lacks analytical skills to identify his weaknesses)

2. He believes he's doing well though he's shit (i.e. he thinks he's doing a good job when he's complete garbage, ditto in the whole "analytical skills" area)

3. He knows he's bad and refuses to learn (i.e. he's just a stubborn fuckwit)

 

Any one of the possibilities correlates with learning disabilities or a poor attitude towards learning, which subsequently correlates with a poor real life outlook.

 

Also, think about it, what do you see reds and yellows do much more frequently than purples? Or for an even easier sample, just look at deniers, have you ever seen a purple denier?

 

- Giving up instead of trying harder (see all the arty players who kill themselves or all the players who just suicide rush)

- Believing that the system is out to screw them (i.e. "WG rigs my matches")

- Believing that others are the reason for their failure (i.e. "I'm a good player but my teams suck")

- Lack of basic mathematical skills (see: deniers)

- Refusal to acknowledge facts and engage in logical discourse (again, deniers)

 

Any one of these offers a pretty strong correlation between bad WoT play and bad logical skills and learning ability. 

 

"I made a bad call which lost that game", I've seen purples, blues, and even greens say it all the time when things go south; I have never seen a red player who's stayed red say it ever.

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Also, think about it, what do you see reds and yellows do much more frequently than purples? Or for an even easier sample, just look at deniers, have you ever seen a purple denier?

 

- Giving up instead of trying harder (see all the arty players who kill themselves or all the players who just suicide rush)

- Believing that the system is out to screw them (i.e. "WG rigs my matches")

- Believing that others are the reason for their failure (i.e. "I'm a good player but my teams suck")

- Lack of basic mathematical skills (see: deniers)

- Refusal to acknowledge facts and engage in logical discourse (again, deniers)

 

Any one of these offers a pretty strong correlation between bad WoT play and bad logical skills and learning ability. 

 

 

 

 

How many of those conditions need to be met for a purple to meet your criteria of a denier? I've bolded two of them that I *REGULARLY* see out of some high profile unicum streamers.

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There is indeed a slight positive correlation between incidence of autism and intelligence, and of anti-social behavior and intelligence.

 

 

The what I'm trying to hypothesize is that is that there is a positive correlation between being bad and staying bad at WoT and having an inability to learn or a refusal to learn, and I'm linking that it with the already-proven relationship between education and RL success.

 

Also, think about it, what do you see reds and yellows do much more frequently than purples? Or for an even easier sample, just look at deniers, have you ever seen a purple denier?

 

- Giving up instead of trying harder (see all the arty players who kill themselves or all the players who just suicide rush)

- Believing that the system is out to screw them (i.e. "WG rigs my matches")

- Believing that others are the reason for their failure (i.e. "I'm a good player but my teams suck")

- Lack of basic mathematical skills (see: deniers)

- Refusal to acknowledge facts and engage in logical discourse (again, deniers)

 

Any one of these offers a pretty strong correlation between bad WoT play and bad logical skills and learning ability. 

 

"I made a bad call which lost that game", I've seen purples, blues, and even greens say it all the time when things go south; I have never seen a red player who's stayed red say it ever.

Or simply don't care about this game. I play some other games too, but in none I'm very much invested in studying it and becoming the best player there is. I do try to make good decisions there with the knowledge I have about the game, but nothing more.

Heck, even in WoT I am barely learning and investing. I've improved from green to blue recent thanks to wotlabs, but even then I don't really study the game much or really try to hone my skills.

And I'm far from failing at life.

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Or simply don't care about this game. I play some other games too, but in none I'm very much invested in studying it and becoming the best player there is. I do try to make good decisions there with the knowledge I have about the game, but nothing more.

Heck, even in WoT I am barely learning and investing. I've improved from green to blue recent thanks to wotlabs, but even then I don't really study the game much or really try to hone my skills.

And I'm far from failing at life.

You're neither a red nor a denier, and you clearly take responsibility for your actions in-game, so you're hardly an example of the group I identified as "likely not to be bad @ RL"

 

How many of those conditions need to be met for a purple to meet your criteria of a denier? I've bolded two of them that I *REGULARLY* see out of some high profile unicum streamers.
 
When a purple says his team fucked up, he's usually right and is backed up by all the evidence.
 
When a red says that his team fucked up, he's usually looking for an excuse to shift the blame.
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Having played over 15k games of HoN and Dota, and placing somewhere in the top 98% (4400 mmr), I can tell you that skill based matchmaking does nothing to quell the tendencies of players to blame teammates for poor performance. You're playing exclusively with people within ~5% of your "overall" skill level, and I would say 90% of games which end in a loss have 1 or more teammates raging hard about the team sucking and holding them back well before the game is in an unrecoverable state. People confuse specialization in different aspects of a complex game as critical deficiencies of overall skill if others don't line up with their particular idea of "what makes a player gud". The stats prove that your teammates are, on average, as effective at winning the game as you, but they are clearly retarded for not doing X or Y which is your particular specialty.

The worst part is that a decent amount of losses are due to players giving up way too early because they get demoralized from seeing tiny mistakes made by their teammates....when they can't see all the mistakes going on on the other side of the fog of war. It's so difficult for people to accept that other people are roughly "as good" as them at the game, despite the statistics proving otherwise. It's also much much easier to blame teammates in this game because you have the best players in the world rubbing tracks with bots and shitlordes alike, and XVM is right there to provide all the confirmation bias a young denier could ask for. Look at all these shitlordes on my team, why even try?

 

I like the idea of skill balanced matchmaking, where you would still have the same group of 30 wildly varied skill level players, but just swap a few tanks of the same type/tier based on something, PR, WR x Games played, whatever. Just generally make the teams closer to even than what we get now. Would be fewer blowouts, longer more interesting games, and I would think it would favor higher skilled players, but as was previously stated in this thread it seems counter to WG interests since it would increase average game length, and really it wouldn't solve the issue at hand, even in a game which balances teams as accurately as possible, the same shit goes down.

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