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Flametz

The actual traverse value of tanks vs listed value.

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Considering the mass-confusion i made on the status update, i'll clarify here.

Original thread made on this was from official EU forums:

http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/326763-actual-real-tank-rotation-traverse-speed/

However i'll be simplifying some of it, and add an explanation as to why WG has done this.

...

The formula for the actual traverse value of a tank is as follows:

Base traverse * (current mounted engine / stock engine) = actual traverse. (UPDATE BELOW 12/3/2015)

This is without taking terrain resistance into account BTW

Let's the Hetzer as an example. It has a lowly 30 d/sec on paper, but for those that have played it you'll know that it feels   much   faster than that. Well, you're right, because it is faster. Twice as fast.

 

Applied to hetzer:

T = 30 d/sec * (220HP/100HP) = 30 * 2.2 = 66 degrees a second.

 

More examples below for those that don't own a Hetzer:

 

 

Spoiler

Luchs: T = 33 d/sec * 360/140 = 33*2.57 = 84 fucking degrees a fucking second

T-54: T = 48 * (700/620) = 48 * 1.13 = 54 d/sec

RU251: T = 44 * (630/500) = 44 * 1.26 = 55.4 d/sec

Cromwell: T = 36 * (650/410) = 36 * 1.585 = 57 d/sec

-more to be added later-

 

 

...

Explanation as to why WG has done this:

 

 

Spoiler

This is the main reason why some premium tanks have faster traverse values than their counterparts: It's to compensate for their inability to use this engine coefficient (as their stock engine = top engine).

This also explains why there are tanks with redundant stock engines (Like LTTB stock engine)... to provide hidden stat buffs (even though the top engine is already unlocked from previous tanks, e.x. MT-25)

 

 

...

BTW, for those that are wondering:

Terrain resistance affects effective engine power.

Edit: However... the equation when taking terrain resistance into account is still... quite undetermined.

Ignore this:

Basically, if you're taking terrain resistance into account (in spoilers]:

 

 

Spoiler

TE = Top Engine

SE = Stock Engine

T = Actual Traverse

BT = Base Traverse

TR = Terrain Resistance value

Equation:

 

T = BT * (( TE / TR ) / SE )

 

 

/End ignore.

TL;DR:

For tanks with low terrain resistance, high top engine power, shitty stock engine and high base traverse: You're a fucking god at turning.

UPDATE 12/3/2015:

New equation: Listed traverse * (stock terrain resistance / top terrain resistance) * (current engine / stock engine) = actual traverse

LT * (TRS / TRT ) * (CE / SE) = AT

This should clear up some discrepancies about terrain resistance and how it affects traverse. Not much, but still a factor.

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How about tanks that doesnt have an upgrade for their engine?

 

Edit: Side note; first time posting here. i can see the stats under my picture are horribly different from what they actually are ._.

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How about tanks that doesnt have an upgrade for their engine?

They get no bonus.

RU251 is an example of this.

Type 62 is an example (brain derp)

...

On paper, the Type 62 turns faster than RU251.

But with this coefficient, the RU251 turns 1 degree faster than Type 62 (if both had the same terrain resistance... which isn't true RiP)

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Btw, i can't think of any other tanks with aforementioned "shit stock engine but good top engine" that aren't in tiers 1-4 (yes i'm aware of Pz 35T, Ltraktor and such).

Anyone got other examples?

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This is 100% the most spaghetti code bullshit i've ever heard of in this game. This is insanity. How does this even make sense? How did someone write this down somewhere, and then pass it to someone else, who also went "Yeah, this makes sense. Lets do this".

 

Genuinely. How.

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This is 100% the most spaghetti code bullshit i've ever heard of in this game. This is insanity. How does this even make sense? How did someone write this down somewhere, and then pass it to someone else, who also went "Yeah, this makes sense. Lets do this".

 

Genuinely. How.

I dunno, but hey, Hetzer + Luchs players love their doubled traverse values :D

Vodka stronk drenk kamrad!

...

btw, this is also why the engine power nerf on some of the German big cats was an actual nerf and not a rebalance: Some of them (notably Jagdtiger) still had the same stock engine power, but noticably worse top engine. They kept same traverse due to buff to base listed value, but RiP acceleration/hill climbing.

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Btw, i can't think of any other tanks with aforementioned "shit stock engine but good top engine" that aren't in tiers 1-4 (yes i'm aware of Pz 35T, Ltraktor and such).

Anyone got other examples?

Old E-75's engine (1200 HP vs 650 HP in stock). Jeez, what a nerf. Is this formula proven? 

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Old E-75's engine (1200 HP vs 650 HP in stock). Jeez, what a nerf. Is this formula proven? 

Yes.

Seriously, just look at the Luchs. Take a tank that also has 32-34 d/sec (luchs, on paper, has 33), and run a turning in a 360o circle between the 2 tanks.

The Luchs would definitely out-turn it.

Hell you could even tank the BT-SV (same 33 d/sec, but VASTLY superior P/W ratio) and put it up against Luchs. RiP BT-SV in turning.

...

ALSO LOL E-75 STOCK ENGINE WAS 675 HP???

Jesus christ.

 

I consider this a validation of my never paying any attention to listed hull traverse values.

Still a good baseline judge for a tank's turning ability....

 

 

So taking this into account, does clutch braking now take more priority than it did before?

Clutch braking only affects the base traverse value, not the engine coefficients.

I dunno about taking more priority than before, tbh i'd go with something that reduces terrain resistance (unless its already low a la T-62A)

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T1 Heavy gains 260 engine power between its stock and top engine (700 - 960)

French tier 7 HT AMX something gains 275 engine power between stock and top (575 - 850)

^this also goes for the 50 100

 

Cant recall any other special ones though. the horsepower jump between the engines at the higher tiers seems quite small

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I threw together a calculation spreadsheet that I think is accurate. Someone please check the math, though.

 

irOZ7xp.png

 

J0K044b.png

Now that T-62A is too wonky for any equation to work.

Terrain resistance is one hell of a drug. brb checking again (112 d/sec... rip?)

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Now that T-62A is too wonky for any equation to work.

Terrain resistance is one hell of a drug. brb checking again (112 d/sec... rip?)

 

There's always the possibility I screwed up a cell's equation.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1o7D3ZtKIJq43zwBx4iMzjn9s_Zy4dpl5hc5zyRSM1-I/edit?usp=sharing

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There's always the possibility I screwed up a cell's equation.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1o7D3ZtKIJq43zwBx4iMzjn9s_Zy4dpl5hc5zyRSM1-I/edit?usp=sharing

No, it looks fine. Seems like it's on my own end.

While the traverse value is finalized, i still haven't fully figured out how terrain resistance factors into this. Yet.

Pretty sure T-62A drivers out there know that their tank can't pull a 180 in 1.75 seconds...

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I threw together a calculation spreadsheet that I think is accurate. Someone please check the math, though.

 

irOZ7xp.png

 

J0K044b.png

 

 

Now that T-62A is too wonky for any equation to work.

Terrain resistance is one hell of a drug. brb checking again (112 d/sec... rip?)

 

Please dont forget this in regards to terrain stuff and T62 turning speed:

 

To make it sure, I asked some1 with a T62 to do a mobility test, T44 vs T62a, same crew and equipment, T62 turns about 10% faster (in full 3 turns, T62 leads with about 1/4 circle so 1/12 ~10%))

 
For the rest they are almost perfectly equal, accelaration, climbing and driving there is no difference whatsoever, see added replay
 
So whatever WG did T62a mobility = T44 mobility (might be a good starting point to reverse calculate mobility actual mobility formulas)
 
ps: We also did a quick armor test, and T62a armor is really shit, my HE penetrated its ass, and my AP could easy penetrate its UFP over and over, thats 175mm pen...

 

The formula for passability which floats around is plain wrong, atleast for outliers, you simply cant divide / multiple hp/ton with resistance, the numbers you get are totally ridiculous for some tanks

 

T44 vs T64 would be on hard terrain:

T62 would get 580/0,5 = 1160 hp

T44 would get 680/1,0 = 680 hp

 

T62 would get: 1160/37  = 31,35 hp/ton

T44 would get: 680/33,96 = 20,01 hp/ton

 

While in practive they are dead even (tested with same crew and equipment, see (old) replay above))

 

No idea how it works however, many mechanics are incredible `vague`... and mobility is one of those

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Hmm.  I always felt turning got tighter with engine upgrades.  I suppose I had always assumed the listed value was one of those "With top engine and crew, on best terrain" things.  Never  put the whole thing together.  I'll have to mess around with a couple tanks and see if it works.

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The actual formula seems really wonky. I know the listed traverse in fact is for the stock engine so the better the engine upgrade the more the traverse increases but I'm gonna call bullshit on that formula until someone proves it with actual data.

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Yes.

Seriously, just look at the Luchs. Take a tank that also has 32-34 d/sec (luchs, on paper, has 33), and run a turning in a 360o circle between the 2 tanks.

The Luchs would definitely out-turn it.

Hell you could even tank the BT-SV (same 33 d/sec, but VASTLY superior P/W ratio) and put it up against Luchs. RiP BT-SV in turning.

You can't respond to "is it proven" with "yes, just try it with a tank and it will work like I said"

The correct answer is no, until you or someone else posts actual test results.

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Forgive me for being a skeptic, but I want to know more about that formula. Has anyone actually run trials to test this and had results published?

 

 

You can't respond to "is it proven" with "yes, just try it with a tank and it will work like I said"

The correct answer is no, until you or someone else posts actual test results.

 

ages ago some1 did a test with lorraine vs bat chat (when they were tier 8 and tier 9)

 

and the outcome of that was the basic for the above formula (or that was a test to see if it works)

 

ps: i know that traverse speed is related to stock engine, i dont know if that formula is good, but i remember some tests and it seems ok (and it matches a bunch of other tanks / tests aswell**)

 

**: ages ago, i tested E75 vs IS4 (tier 9) and while IS4 had much higher traverse (30 vs 22 or so) E75 turned about 50% faster (E75 could make 3 turns for 2 turns for IS4) at first i thought it was due to pivot turning, but the above mentioned formula matches it also nice, will try to find back some odl stuff

 

see this topic:

http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/82374-batchat-traverse-speed/

 

dammit, cant find it back, it was from short after 7.1 when frech tanks were released afaik, some1 did turning tests to show why stats were lie and WG idiots (bat had higher traverse on paper, but lorraine turned faster)

Edited by GehakteMolen

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Now that T-62A is too wonky for any equation to work.

Terrain resistance is one hell of a drug. brb checking again (112 d/sec... rip?)

I don't think it would be, because the T-62A only has one engine, so I should think it works in the same way that premium vehicles do. I did, however, calculate the results for another tank: the WZ-132. According to this formula, the WZ-132 has an elited traverse rate of 112 degrees/second, which can't be true.

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