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Interesting thread on balance at high tiers

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http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/27383-a-numerical-look-at-why-carriers-and-destroyers-fall-off/#topmost

 

TL / DR from the thread OP

 

 

- Destroyers lose battleship killing power as tiers go up

- Carriers lose battleship killing power as tiers go up

- Battleships stay good at killing other battleships, and gain resistance to Destroyers/Carriers

 

The net result is World of Battleships, which is boring.

 

Discuss.

 

 

note: I am not the OP in the thread referenced

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Sounds identical to the pubby crying about heavies in early WoT. Just because they don't know how to play them yet doesn't mean carriers and destroyers aren't just as capable.

 

Also, world of battleships sounds fun as fuck.

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Sounds identical to the pubby crying about heavies in early WoT. Just because they don't know how to play them yet doesn't mean carriers and destroyers aren't just as capable.

 

Also, world of battleships sounds fun as fuck.

Battleships with torpedoes sounds even more fun...... the lulz and rage that would ensue if my Amagi actually had her intended 8x610mm torpedoes. :serb:

 

However, the devs. have said no to this idea last I checked.

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A well played battleship can basically wreck a flank of cruisers with little risk to itself in the mid tiers. The higher tiers are a bit distorted right now because a) the Yamato's armour is broken and b) the Amagi has no armour anyway, so balance is a little hard to nail down at T8 plus. That said I think the balance is alright at T7 with each ship having a good role to play. T6 is warped by the Cleveland and Fuso and T9 is missing some boats.

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Sounds identical to the pubby crying about heavies in early WoT. Just because they don't know how to play them yet doesn't mean carriers and destroyers aren't just as capable.

 

Also, world of battleships sounds fun as fuck.

As I recall the stories, the 54 was the end all be all tank, basically invulnerable to everything.  Stating it does not mean people don't know how to adapt to it.  There is a reason why so many used 54 LTs in this year's grand finals.  WG does a shitty job balancing.

 

WG should seek healthy balance between nations and classes.  Historical accuracy be damned.

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He's just comparing best case damage output.  I can't be the only one who finds that a bit silly.  Still think CVs and BBs are da best higher tier ships tho.  

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He's just comparing best case damage output.  I can't be the only one who finds that a bit silly.  Still think CVs and BBs are da best higher tier ships tho.  

Yeah... sounds a lot like early WoT with T10 HTs and T8 Artillery being king of high tiers at a time where gold ammo was virtually nonexistent outside the occ. wallet warrior (... inb4 ships "gold" ammo for anti-BB)

I really wish CAs had some advantages between T7 and T10... the firepower gap has closed to the point where it's really a game of DPM and RNG (citadel), and i find myself out-dueling Des Moines and the like... with a Mogami. Hopefully the "hp recovery" feature mentioned in the news section would do something to solve this.

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As I'm in EU, I can't access the forum link but couple days back I looked at the numbers in the client to try to figure out how destroyers progress through the tiers:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qDVFwmCm1HdkbV8P_Ce86dje2aELIppWVeAYHKXO1xM/edit?usp=sharing
 

The torp to kill and gun kill time values are based on max damage and ignore armor within the same tier (T6 DD attacking T6 CC etc.), so not not really science but a general trend can be seen:

  • Torpedo alpha damage increases over the tiers so amount of torpedoes needed for a kill remain pretty constant: Destroyer 1-2 / Cruiser 3-4 / Battleship 5+
  • Over the tiers amount of torpedoes per launch and torpedo travel distance increase, reload time increases.
  • IJN guns suck, USN guns improve from T5 only at T9

In addition to the weaponry the other aspects of the ships change a bit, past tier 5 DDs get bigger, so they get slower and easier to detect. High tier speeds are around 35 knots and detection range is closer to 8 km.

 

Also apparently the torpedo travel distance capability is related to the detection distance, I found this on Reddit:

 

 

 

US 4.5km dd torps get detected at 0.75 km
IJN 8 km range torps get detected at 0.8 km
IJN 10 km torps get detected at 2 km
IJN 20 km torps get detected at 2 km.
I'd assume that 15km torps also gets detected at 2km as well.

 

So if these are correct, then high tier DDs are not really all that fun:

  • Slower
  • Easier to detect
  • Damage potential diminishes against armor
  • Long reload time of torpedoes
  • Long distance torpedo launches are a lottery
  • Short distance torpedo launches are easier to detect early

TL/DR bring a BB or CC to the big boy tiers, DDs stay at tier 5 :(

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Those torp detection numbers are my own personal testing, I can confirm them.

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Can't wait to run the increased AA range equipment on my BBs and cruisers along with the increased AA range commander skill once I get it.  40% more range?  Yes, just yes.

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Can't wait to run the increased AA range equipment on my BBs and cruisers along with the increased AA range commander skill once I get it.  40% more range?  Yes, just yes.

 

I have this on my New Orleans.

 

It is glorious.

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Doesn't that push your bofors range out to the point where the AA ability affects them?

 

This is what I have been told by Tedster. I can confirm that I can rek planes.

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When my T7 ships get in T10 battles, they still contribute. I still have multiple kill games. I really wonder if it is worth going higher than T5 with IJN destroyers. The 30 second reload on torp tubes on the Minikaze, plus the 3 launchers seems to almost be ideal. My SIms which is way op becasue it can turn on a dime still does well at T10. Top tiers need some balance work. The Yamato can take 14 torp hits and stay afloat. It single handedly kind of breaks balance. But t7+ cruisers and BB's can still kill it. The heal ability given to T9 and T10 cruisers should also help balance.

 

I compare this to the old +-3 mm in WOT and even todays +-2 and ships do much better as bottom tier even -4 than tanks do in wot at -2. So it isnt a problem. It still needs to be addressed because it will bleed customers.

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Doesn't that push your bofors range out to the point where the AA ability affects them?

Yep, resulting in the single highest DPS for any ship in game, with the Baltimore reaching over 750 AA DPS IIRC because of this.

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Tedster there is a torp skill that increases torpedo aquisition range by 20 percent. What exactly is torp aquisition range?

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Tedster there is a torp skill that increases torpedo aquisition range by 20 percent. What exactly is torp aquisition range?

The distance at which your ship will spot torpedoes. It isn't an enhanced torpedo range like I originally thought. They could reword that slightly to make it a little easier.

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WoWs QA in Rita's blog: http://ritastatusreport.blogspot.nl/2015/05/wows-q.html?m=1

 

 

 

- Ammo loadouts will be introduced (shell capacity for ships);
- Ability for your secondary equipment to fire at torpedo barrages to stop them (cruisers only) and save your Battleship allies;
- Signal flags (already disclosed by devs into the community) which increase certain characteristics of ships, earn them by completing missions;
- Paintjobs (like wot camo) but they wont provide any bonus (currently);
- Devs do listen to the community, they have taken note on the new American Battleship battery firing ranges and a reminder to all that this is a closed beta and may incur in changes depending on outcomes, (personal note: players must stop whining in a closed beta game);
- Dreadnoughts wont be introduced as a class, they will be part of any battleship branch they belong to;
- British, French, German, Italian and Soviet trees are planned, more will come;
-German "pocket battleships" will come for certain, Bismark included;
-Consumables will be introduced, one of them will be a better fire extinguisher system (either like a one-shot firefight or something that extinguishes fires more quickly, apart from the equipment ones);
- Submarines in WoWs? Too early to tell, they have been considered but currently aren't planned due the technical problems they pose (battleships would be completely defenseless against them, apart from being completely hidden in the battle until they fire, oneshot wonders wouldn't work well, and to kill a submarine would require depth charges, sonar, and much more, so -- not at the moment.);
- A reminder that dreadnoughts are warfare ships built before subaquatic warfare, they are slow but very well armored, (complaining about Warspite being too slow? the next patch should increase its survivability a lot, reflecting on the change of shell/torpedo mechanics);
- The next patch includes shell balances off AP and HE, devs expect a lot of survivability issues will be addressed with such (specially battleships), if anything falls short, and a ship becomes too OP or too weak, it will be corrected;
- Based on this case, several ships have been tagged as "problematic"(about 6) if the shell rework doesn't address the issue, they will be rebalanced;
-The introduction of ammo loadout would bring the Sims's destroyer (and others) "OPness" to a more reasonable level (it can fire a full volley every 4 seconds and easily set any ship on fire by a constant barrage of derps), however, the sims is a very fragile destroyer, a single shell salve could sunk her, that would be addressed as patches roll in;

- There is a small known bug when a ship fires its torpedos too close to a target (almost melee range (50 yards or so), the torpedoes wont cause any damage, this is caused because the server "thinks" the torpedo fired on its own sender, will be corrected);
 -When a ship explodes (by ammorack) there may be a SMALL shock wave by the blast, it would cause damage to nearby ships (I must denote the word small, because its not a nuclear bomb going off, you'd only get damage if you are stupidly close to it);
-Different ship explosions and destructions will be introduced depending on the type and causes of the death incurred, (ammorack explosion would literally send turrets flying, entire ship rocking violently (USS Arizona, anyone?) and amounts of debris). New animations for the ship breaking in two, flooding, and even the classical "titanic-esque" sinking where half the ship would lift into the air and sunk, even completely turning over.
- Kongo is a Hiei, will be graphically corrected (not anytime soon);
-Dev team is well aware of the large amount of anime fanbase WoWs has (Kantai Collection, Arpeggio of Blue Steel & others);
-Mod support will come, the aim mod that's currently in use will not be allowed;
-XVM in WoWS is coming (hide your kids, this one is actually being received negatively by the community, I can see why, I've seen good willed and knowledgeable and polite people (supertesters and devs even) getting shat on their winrates, xvm is an unfair tool to them, being unicum on wows is like playing Russian roulette, too early, so many variables, unjust to many).
- More skills will be added, option to accelerate commander's training will come too;
- As of now, the current beta gives a lot of exp/credits per battle, this is intentional to help players research and play their desired ships, once the game reaches open beta or release, the rates will get properly changed, otherwise, in a good 2 or 3 evenings playing, a normal player would be able to reach a Yamato without much effort;
- Co-Op battles will stay, they provide a lot of entertainment for players who "just want to blow out steam", promote a healthy training environment and doesn't affect your win rate, plus you can make credits and exp (at a reduced rate), and helps you learn the play style of any ships you've acquired against same tier peers
- Too early for a MM rebalance, once the game is in open beta with higher player influx, new mm rules may come;
- Despite what it seems, the Kitakami Premium ship (can fire a volley of 60 torps) doesnt have impressive win rate across the current player base and its quite fragile;
-WoT-Like missions will come, will reward tokens, credits, equipment and even ships.

 

All in all lots of good stuff there, but again a little bit more concerned about DDs at high tiers:

 

"- Ability for your secondary equipment to fire at torpedo barrages to stop them (cruisers only) and save your Battleship allies"

 

Considering that landing a torpedo hit is already harder with greater detection ranges, due to torpedo distance to detection range relation and the high level commander skill, as well as high level battleships being able to take a serious beating, having the ability to shoot torpedos off the water seems a bit disheartening.

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Some of those are spectacularly retarded. XVM should not be allowed ever again in a WG title, ammo load outs just gimp destroyers more and the firing at torpedoes... What the fuck?

Ted go slap some sense into these idiots.

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Sounds like silentstalker might have introduced Rita to a bullshit source again (from Ev1n):

Just to comment on this alleged Q&A. We ourselves would like to know the source, since we can't identify any Q&A session, stream or post that would have disclosed this information, especially since we find most of it to be purely speculative, and some simply not true.

Someone wrote:

XVM in WoWS is coming

LOL.

Looking at it more closely some of the EU super testers have it right on the money. Some of the stuff on there is objectively wrong. I should have twigged those earlier. I'm a dupe love.

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yep.  from talking with Artur, it seems a lot of that stuff is either badly translated or straight up false.

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yep.  from talking with Artur, it seems a lot of that stuff is either badly translated or straight up false.

Not surprised at all, considering her last "report" that dealt with the WoWP devs. caused most of the WoWP NA forums to go ballistic until Gang_Starr did a proper translation and it turned out to be just a normal dev. Q&A.

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