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StahlJager

~500k Gold stolen from OTTER's Treasury

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At all: this happened multiple times on EU server before, and WG doesnt care at all, and so do most players (or atleast i dont)

 

ps: best way to prevent gold theft is to have no gold, or no people who can move gold :P

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That was gold they won from winning the invitational. And for OTTER it wasn't a light win either.

Yes Gabe spaghetti'd and fucked up but OTTER skrimmed for 3 weeks and got inactive old gaurd super unis to play.

They earned it.

Like NightmareLuna said, you don't exactly give away that much gold quickly, plus they were probably planning on holding onto a decent amount of it.

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Seems pretty shitty, but why would a clan sit on so much gold and not distribute it to its clan members?

 

All top clans have a stock-pile of gold in-case they are attacked. If a clan is planning on attacking another clan they will usually stock-pile a lot of gold depending on how long the war is planned on going for.

 

RELIC, VILIN and OTTER have all planned this war to go on for a very long time, as such all of the main clans have excessive amounts of gold to pay their members. Income is the last thing a clans should worry about during a war, since you want to attack on maps that you have a lot of experience on regardless of the provinces value. VILIN right now has around the same amount of gold that OTTER just lost and because of this we can fight for months before needed to go back to farming.

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As someone who played RuneScape in the past, I can assure you that there were court cases in the US over the theft of in game currency. And that was before RS started its own RWT via bonds.

The only reason why I think this might be iffy is because the had every legal permission in the game to simply take the gold. If you give someone legal authority to handle all your money you have a tough time trying to get it back since him/her taking it was legal... (don't joke. My family has a 90 year old friend who had this exact thing happen. Got stripped of everything except 3k€ and her house by her own son who had authority because he handled her finances. 90 year old woman have a tendency to want to stay on their farm.)

 

They did not have any permission to take the gold for themselves, as someone else pointed out above then any bank teller could take what they wanted from the vault...they had permission to access the gold as part of their duties... i.e. paying clan members etc.

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All top clans have a stock-pile of gold in-case they are attacked. If a clan is planning on attacking another clan they will usually stock-pile a lot of gold depending on how long the war is planned on going for.

 

RELIC, VILIN and OTTER have all planned this war to go on for a very long time, as such all of the main clans have excessive amounts of gold to pay their members. Income is the last thing a clans should worry about during a war, since you want to attack on maps that you have a lot of experience on regardless of the provinces value. VILIN right now has around the same amount of gold that OTTER just lost and because of this we can fight for months before needed to go back to farming.

 

Still seems excessive, excuse my noobness perhaps, why does a clan need 500k reserves to fight a war that doesn't require gold. In order to better compensate players and motivate them to participate? Or is it just an expectation in these clans that they will always get a good amount of gold being in a top clan no matter the posture? 

Hmm, funny, most of the 12 pages is in fact not filled with that.

Well I would have known had I actually read it...  :-P

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Still seems excessive, excuse my noobness perhaps, why does a clan need 500k reserves to fight a war that doesn't require gold. In order to better compensate players and motivate them to participate? Or is it just an expectation in these clans that they will always get a good amount of gold being in a top clan no matter the posture? 

Well I would have known had I actually read it...  :-P

 

Read the thread.

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All top clans have a stock-pile of gold in-case they are attacked. If a clan is planning on attacking another clan they will usually stock-pile a lot of gold depending on how long the war is planned on going for.

 

RELIC, VILIN and OTTER have all planned this war to go on for a very long time, as such all of the main clans have excessive amounts of gold to pay their members. Income is the last thing a clans should worry about during a war, since you want to attack on maps that you have a lot of experience on regardless of the provinces value. VILIN right now has around the same amount of gold that OTTER just lost and because of this we can fight for months before needed to go back to farming.

Still don't understand the difference between a recurring payout and a lump sum at the beginning.  Pay all your members the shares you are planning to dole out for X amount of time.  Done.  Member buys a tank with it, don't bitch to command about lack of a premium account.

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Well, speaking as an honest to goodness prosecutor, I think it would be theft.   However, I doubt you would be able to get any law enforcement officials interested.

 

In my State theft is exerting unauthorized control over property of another with intent to deprive the other of all or part of its value or use.  Those who have access to the treasury do not OWN the contents.  The president of a corporation has access to the treasury but can't use the funds therein for himself.

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Still don't understand the difference between a recurring payout and a lump sum at the beginning.  Pay all your members the shares you are planning to dole out for X amount of time.  Done.  Member buys a tank with it, don't bitch to command about lack of a premium account.

 

People like to maintain control and pull the purse strings maybe? Better to keep good players under their control with the lure of recurring payouts perhaps instead of paying them a lump sum and having them move on? I can see both sides of it.

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People like to maintain control and pull the purse strings maybe? Better to keep good players under their control with the lure of recurring payouts perhaps instead of paying them a lump sum and having them move on? I can see both sides of it.

As far as I know, no one has joined otter for the gold. There is a reason we got to where we are, and it isn't through constant farming.

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EvE online is a different game, you are entitled to your opinion. What I did in EvE might not be something others would condone, but I can confirm that I'm not a dick irl.

No you can't, no one can deny the dickery in themselves

It's determined by everyone but you

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Still don't understand the difference between a recurring payout and a lump sum at the beginning.  Pay all your members the shares you are planning to dole out for X amount of time.  Done.  Member buys a tank with it, don't bitch to command about lack of a premium account.

If a member does that, they won't bitch about not having premium. They just won't play. And that hurts the clan as a whole. The top clans didn't get there by ignoring points of failure like that, and the gold is there to take care of the members mainly, with the secondary purpose of tools used on the global map.

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I don't see why WG doesn't implement a system where the CO has to approve a transaction over a certain amount. Hell even allow the CO to regulate the the amounts that can be withdrawn in a certain time span. 

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As far as I know, no one has joined otter for the gold. There is a reason we got to where we are, and it isn't through constant farming.

 

My apologies, I see how that sounds. I was just trying to understand it, I have been in much more modestly funded clans who make regular occurring payouts based on attendance and participation and make the math publically known to all members to ensure fairness. Does Otter do this?

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Still don't understand the difference between a recurring payout and a lump sum at the beginning.  Pay all your members the shares you are planning to dole out for X amount of time.  Done.  Member buys a tank with it, don't bitch to command about lack of a premium account.

 

people are payed based on attendance etc, so if you pay a lump sum and people don't show then what?

 

I don't see why WG doesn't implement a system where the CO has to approve a transaction over a certain amount. Hell even allow the CO to regulate the the amounts that can be withdrawn in a certain time span. 

 

You mean WG implement easy things that have been done for decades in the real financial world, that's crazy talk! :P

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Still don't understand the difference between a recurring payout and a lump sum at the beginning.  Pay all your members the shares you are planning to dole out for X amount of time.  Done.  Member buys a tank with it, don't bitch to command about lack of a premium account.

Ever heard of attendance codes? That is how (afaik) every single top clan does things. Shares are paid based on involvement in clan activities. The only people who don't get shares are those who don't play enough/at all. Encourages activity so the clan can do more things.

My apologies, I see how that sounds. I was just trying to understand it, I have been in much more modestly funded clans who make regular occurring payouts based on attendance and participation and make the math publically known to all members to ensure fairness. Does Otter do this?

Attendance info day-to-day isn't public, but everyone except recruit/reservist can see the treasury log. We all know how much is being paid, and as long as it is fair we don't really mind anything else.

 

(shoutout to vork for being an awesome treasurer!)

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They did not have any permission to take the gold for themselves, as someone else pointed out above then any bank teller could take what they wanted from the vault...they had permission to access the gold as part of their duties... i.e. paying clan members etc.

 

They did have permission though.  Not having permission would mean either that they weren't able to do what they did, or that doing what they did would come with some sort of punishment.  Jail time and fines enforced by police keep bank tellers from withdrawing anything they want from the vault, but clans have no real power to take action against someone who steals from their treasury apart from kicking offenders out or social shaming.  WG is the only group with the kind of influence that can take back/delete the gold or ban the players, and if they choose not to punish this kind of behavior, it would be as good as granting them permission.

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Ever heard of attendance codes? That is how (afaik) every single top clan does things. Shares are paid based on involvement in clan activities. The only people who don't get shares are those who don't play enough/at all. Encourages activity so the clan can do more things.

Attendance info day-to-day isn't public, but everyone except recruit/reservist can see the treasury log. We all know how much is being paid, and as long as it is fair we don't really mind anything else.

 

(shoutout to vork for being an awesome treasurer!)

Well aware of attendance operations.  But the fact is that the treasury has money in it from PAST actions.  Not future ones.  The players that got the treasury so large are the ones who should be paid.  The war is a separate thing, that I assume was discussed with members... a decrease in revenue means that payouts would be less/nil.  The artificial inflation of the treasury to allow for payouts in the war is just shorting the members who got it there.

 

But then, I have been out of clanwars for a while now, and have no interest in getting into it again.  Just my view.

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I don't see why WG doesn't implement a system where generic good idea here 

 

Communist command and control structure doesn't do well with suggestions from the proletariat that implicate something is wrong, comrade. Time to meet my good friend, comrade Gulag...

 

In all seriousness, being able to define officer roles is among the most BASIC things that should happen in implementing the clan structure in the game. Not doing so is making WG looking even dumber as the days go by.

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Well, speaking as an honest to goodness prosecutor, I think it would be theft.   However, I doubt you would be able to get any law enforcement officials interested.

 

In my State theft is exerting unauthorized control over property of another with intent to deprive the other of all or part of its value or use.  Those who have access to the treasury do not OWN the contents.  The president of a corporation has access to the treasury but can't use the funds therein for himself.

 

I am not so sure about this legal opinion now. I withdraw it. Those that have more knowledge of clan wars than me are explaining that raiding the clan treasury might be considered a legitimate ruse de guerre under the rules and customs of clan wars. Nevertheless, it is an immoral and rotten thing to do to your friends.

 

I personally think the resolution is much simpler and does not even get into the nature/rules/customs of CW at all. I also don't think proving theft will be all that easy as the property rights at issue are not likely to track what we would normally be inclined to believe.

 

Section 8.1 of the terms of service addresses "virtual goods" and makes it clear that all aspects of those goods are subject to Wargaming's rules and regs. Even more explicitly that sections says:

 

"For avoidance of doubt, Virtual Goods are not redeemable or refundable for any sum of money or monetary value from Wargaming or any third party at any time; provided, however, if and to the extent that any Virtual Goods are determined by applicable law to constitute real world currency or property, then they are the property of Wargaming." (emphasis added)

 

The upshot is that the gold never "belonged" to OTTER, and has never belonged to or created a property interest attached to anyone other than Wargaming. They owned it before the theft, and they still own it now. Of course many have said Wargaming should do something about what happened, but they have made it clear that they won't (at least in a general sense). All users are bound by the EULA, and the EULA incorporates the "Game Rules". The Game Rules state at 1.06:

 

"Administration does not bear responsibility for any inter-clan relationship. It is at sole discretion of clan leaders, their deputies, and officers to carefully choose clan members (especially whilst assigning clan members to important offices such as the clan treasury). By assigning a clan member to a respective office clan leader confirms his confidence in the member. Privates, from their side, confirm that they accept clan rules and regulations by entering the respective clan. Note, that in the event of a conflict within a clan, information, such as treasury logs (and similar) will not be provided on request."

 

I'm not saying such policies are right, or that the parties here were right to do what they did. I'm just just looking at the ground rules that Wargaming laid out for all of us who play and what they seem to mean in a situation like this.

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Unfortunately it's unlikely :(

 

It worked for Tioga because of the small volume of sigs being generated on his website. On WoTLabs, there are around 20 signatures being requested every second. The image processing is already the most resource intensive part of the application. It would take [number of frames] times the amount of memory to generate a GIF signature than a normal one takes. Each frame has to be stored individually in memory in order to overlay the stat boxes, columns and images on each one, and then put back together to be saved as a GIF.

 

Are the signatures regenerated for every request? Is there not a cache to store them for ~ 24 hours? Excuse my saying, but it's something so obvious that would reduce the load by an order of magnitude, I'm a bit incredulous even that such a simple optimization was not attempted

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Communist command and control structure doesn't do well with suggestions from the proletariat that implicate something is wrong, comrade. Time to meet my good friend, comrade Gulag...

 

In all seriousness, being able to define officer roles is among the most BASIC things that should happen in implementing the clan structure in the game. Not doing so is making WG looking even dumber as the days go by.

 

Maybe WG hadn't intended or thought clans (or members) would allow for such large gold caches to exist?

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Well, speaking as an honest to goodness prosecutor, I think it would be theft.   However, I doubt you would be able to get any law enforcement officials interested.

 

In my State theft is exerting unauthorized control over property of another with intent to deprive the other of all or part of its value or use.  Those who have access to the treasury do not OWN the contents.  The president of a corporation has access to the treasury but can't use the funds therein for himself.

This-

 

It's less a matter of proving the crime, and more a matter of WG/WGNA deciding that it's worth dealing with.

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