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StahlJager

~500k Gold stolen from OTTER's Treasury

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Thank you. This is interesting. A couple quick points (1) What constitutes "real world property" will be defined by the applicable criminal law. A private actor, such as Wargaming, has no power to decide what is property and what is not property. And game gold is liable to qualify as property under almost any criminal code I know of. (2) Whoever the property belongs to -- whether the clan or wargaming -- a person may not take it without authorization.

 

So the issue still seems to come down to whether the taking was authorized. And that depends on the rules and customs of the game. Grappling with that difficult issue seems unavoidable. 

 

On point (1) sure, and that's why Wargaming put in the text I bolded, no doubt -- to assert at the outset (and in a manner where the players at least tacitly agree) that any and all property rights that may be found to exist with regard to virtual goods exist only for them. On point (2), I think once you get to authorization you do end up bound by the rules Wargaming sets because "authorization" can only exist within the framework they created, and they are the only ones that can authorize what is done with their property. The virtual goods belong to Wargaming and they, though their game rules, turn over management (but not ownership) of those goods to clans (at least in this case) and say "do what you want, but whatever happens is on you." Given that Wargaming, as the owner of the goods, has taken this position, it becomes really hard to say that was was done here was "unauthorized" by the owner.  

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Seize their accounts, convert items of value to in game scrip, return said scrip to the damaged party. Then ban the offending individuals.

 

Reducing them to a fine greasy film via explosives may seem like a good idea, but the resultant mess is a bit much.

So, what if officer A, who has officer B's acc info, logs on to B, do all the trash shit, and B gets banned for no reason?

Who determines what is a breach of trust?

What counts of theft, and what counts as proper salary?

 

Because i have never taken a dime of Bulba's Treasury in my time there, i could of swiped 100k and said it was for everything i did in my 10 months there, is that theft? or just me asking for my back pay? Do you get to be the judge?

 

There is a price to the freedom that WG allows us, and i can't think of a way where everyone wins.

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Carbon, you're right about the reasoning, but if someone did log on to someone else account, it's a EULA violation which means WG would have all the excuse they need to ban one or both.

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Because i have never taken a dime of Bulba's Treasury in my time there, i could of swiped 100k and said it was for everything i did in my 10 months there, is that theft? or just me asking for my back pay? Do you get to be the judge?

 

There is a price to the freedom that WG allows us, and i can't think of a way where everyone wins.

 

I'd say it's more a price to the relaxed atmosphere of clans. An alternative is a more business or strict payout system but no one would want to deal with that shit. Running a clan is business, time consuming, enough. I also imagine if a developer advertised their game as one of those with a wild west sort of "anything can happen" akin to Eve but also put it in the ToS that there would be no legal recourse possible.

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Carbon, you're right about the reasoning, but if someone did log on to someone else account, it's a EULA violation which means WG would have all the excuse they need to ban one or both.

Pretty sure some people in Bulba can figure out my password from all the time we spent together, do i get banned if i was "hacked".

 

Again, these are people we are dealing with, and if courts in RL can't handle the complexity of electric currents in our brain, i sincerely doubt WG can introduce anything that would help in the slightest.

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So, what if officer A, who has officer B's acc info, logs on to B, do all the trash shit, and B gets banned for no reason?

Who determines what is a breach of trust?

What counts of theft, and what counts as proper salary?

 

Because i have never taken a dime of Bulba's Treasury in my time there, i could of swiped 100k and said it was for everything i did in my 10 months there, is that theft? or just me asking for my back pay? Do you get to be the judge?

 

There is a price to the freedom that WG allows us, and i can't think of a way where everyone wins.

That is potentially solved by IP's, etc. It'd take someone actually bothering to look at a lot of boring logs, which I doubt WG (or most game pubs/producers/hosts) are willing to do.

I'm fairly sure they are operating on the concept of people just shrugging their shoulders and going on with giving them money,etc..

 

That aside-

 

 If the in game currency has no real value, it's a non issue, as WG could just go "oh well" and replace the stolen credits/gold/etc in the current instance, until they figure out how to deal with the situation.  

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Carbon, you're right about the reasoning, but if someone did log on to someone else account, it's a EULA violation which means WG would have all the excuse they need to ban one or both.

With Proxies, etc... good luck on proving who logged into what account.

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Honestly, carbon has the most consistently retarded ideas about ethics of anyone I have ever seen.  His pro se argument about how courts can't figure out the currents inside his brain, therefore, there is no truth would probably get a groan or two before they sentenced him, though.

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With Proxies, etc... good luck on proving who logged into what account.

That becomes a larger management/policy issue, as to their restricting proxy access, or judging the risk of incidents being infrequent enough to not worry about.

 

(edited for grammar/spelling)

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If laws are perfect about judging what humans do, then we woldn't be hearing all the fucked up shit about our justice system every day, and you'd be a fool if you think there is anything WG can do that can somehow magically address the problem that sometimes, people are assholes.

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I've seen this mentioned by a few as a way of doing the same. I wonder, while WG won't respond to a clan leader filing a ticket on the issue, what if one of those officers opened a ticket asking for the gold split to them be returned? Would WG remove it from their account and put it back in the treasury?

 

 

 

 

 

Doesn't need to be something obtained through a profession for it to apply. Clubs aren't professional and the same principal for finances applies. Further the gold does have a true monetary value given that gold in general may be purchased or you can say cars won via contests have no monetary value when stolen by a car thief. If the victim can not give a value you are to use "book" or "replacement" value. In cases of even illegal goods like narcotics you go by street value.

 

Winning 1's and 0's in a game is not the same as a winning car, I doubt we need to further that discussion.

 

Except that you can buy the "gold" with hard currency. The gold stolen represents a measurable value, equatable in real money.

It's the same as casino chips. effectively useless outside the casino, but of a demonstrable monetary value nonetheless..

 

It CAN be paid for but it wasn't. If you win my pubes in a video game contest can you exchange them at a bank for money?

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Pretty sure some people in Bulba can figure out my password from all the time we spent together, do i get banned if i was "hacked".

 

Again, these are people we are dealing with, and if courts in RL can't handle the complexity of electric currents in our brain, i sincerely doubt WG can introduce anything that would help in the slightest.

 

 

With Proxies, etc... good luck on proving who logged into what account.

It's a situation I've witnessed in this game first hand, and WG "investigated", with no results, as expected. The point is, unless you can prove account sharing, there's no rules violation here.

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By the way, even now for us on the outside, we don't know from certainty whether both Tioga and Von did the deed, or maybe it was Tioga hacking Von making it look like they both did it, or the other way around. Or maybe it was a 3rd person hacking both of them.

 

So let me be the devil's advocate here and say that we put down the pitchforks until we can determine what the fuck exactly happened behind the curtain.

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Winning 1's and 0's in a game is not the same as a winning car, I doubt we need to further that discussion.

Now this "computer stuff has no value" thing is just nonsense.  You would think with the popularization of cryptocurrency this idea would have died out.  Data can clearly be valuable.

 

Also idonteven about the plsgo stuff.  They're mostly just reveling in the forum chaos.  Well and happy cause karma for TS stuff.  I swear some of the people in this thread actually beleive something like this: http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/439878-mlp-v20-the-060-version/page__st__20__pid__8945921#entry8945921

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It CAN be paid for but it wasn't. If you win my pubes in a video game contest can you exchange them at a bank for money?

Depends on if I can demonstrate that said pubies have a measurable value of exchange. Such as you selling them for say, $1.00, and that getting you 200 freshly plucked short&curlies.

 

Then there is convincing that bank to honor that method of exchange. Banks don't take livestock as payment for similar logistical and bookkeeping reasons.

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If laws are perfect about judging what humans do, then we woldn't be hearing all the fucked up shit about our justice system every day, and you'd be a fool if you think there is anything WG can do that can somehow magically address the problem that sometimes, people are assholes.

You don't hear fucked up shit every day.  You hear propaganda every day, and are dumb enough to believe it.

 

Here's a start -- the famous mcdonalds hot coffee case:

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm

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You don't hear fucked up shit every day.  You hear propaganda every day, and are dumb enough to believe it.

 

Here's a start -- the famous mcdonalds hot coffee case:

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm

Right, and maybe thats why people are declared innocent 30 years after they convicted of murder/rape.

 

But i hardly doubt this is the place for this argument, but thanks for bringing up the case anyhow.

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You don't hear fucked up shit every day.  You hear propaganda every day, and are dumb enough to believe it.

 

Here's a start -- the famous mcdonalds hot coffee case:

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm

I love this story. Almost nobody knows the actual details, but everyone points to it as an example of a case that demonstrates the necessity of tort reform. It's always a bit amusing to see someone's opinion change when they learn of the third-degree burns and skin grafts.

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Now this "computer stuff has no value" thing is just nonsense.  You would think with the popularization of cryptocurrency this idea would have died out.  Data can clearly be valuable.

 

Here's the IRS's take..http://www.irs.gov/uac/Newsroom/IRS-Virtual-Currency-Guidance

The interesting part is this blurb-

"In some environments, virtual currency operates like “real” currency -- i.e., the coin and paper money of the United States or of any other country that is designated as legal tender, circulates, and is customarily used and accepted as a medium of exchange in the country of issuance -- but it does not have legal tender status in any jurisdiction."

 

Now to be clear, this context is in regards to bitcoin, etc where they are cross convertable to a degree, but it does not take a great deal of foresight to see the IRS extending this to "one sided" virtual transactions.

Sperm Banks do.

I was expecting someone to bring up some of the livestock/produce based banking, but that is a good example of a "bank" that is offering a demonstrable monetary exchange toward an otherwise "sloppy" form of "currency".

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If laws are perfect about judging what humans do, then we woldn't be hearing all the fucked up shit about our justice system every day, and you'd be a fool if you think there is anything WG can do that can somehow magically address the problem that sometimes, people are assholes.

There's a difference though between acknowledging that bad things will happen and doing next to nothing to stop said bad things from happening.

If that were the case, car companies might as well remove all locks from car doors, since people can find a way to steal your car anyway.  Bank's might as well remove security questions since it's still possible for someone to steal your identity etc etc

 

There are simple things that WG could implement that would at least make it harder for something like this to happen.  Allowing Commanders to set specific permissions to individuals as well as setting limits on both a per transaction and per timeframe basis (to avoid trickling gold out) would be ways to help.  The inability to stamp out a problem 100% doesn't mean you can't take steps towards reducing the problem.

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Winning 1's and 0's in a game is not the same as a winning car, I doubt we need to further that discussion.

 

 

Of course it isn't the same - it isn't a car.

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Now this "computer stuff has no value" thing is just nonsense.  You would think with the popularization of cryptocurrency this idea would have died out.  Data can clearly be valuable.

 

Also idonteven about the plsgo stuff.  They're mostly just reveling in the forum chaos.  Well and happy cause karma for TS stuff.  I swear some of the people in this thread actually beleive something like this: http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/439878-mlp-v20-the-060-version/page__st__20__pid__8945921#entry8945921

 

Hah, you comparing crypto currency to gold in WoT makes me laugh.

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I love this story. Almost nobody knows the actual details, but everyone points to it as an example of a case that demonstrates the necessity of tort reform. It's always a bit amusing to see someone's opinion change when they learn of the third-degree burns and skin grafts.

 

but the argument ``too hot coffee`` is still ridiculous

 

the water should be between 90-95 deg or so, and serving temperature goes between 74 and 90 deg (165 till 195 deg fah) so the argument that it was ``too hot`` or that mac donals sells ``too hot coffee`` is plaing r******d

 

(there are even minimum temperatures (listed by sellers of machines and law (?) in regards to minium temperature) cant find back right nr atm, but i saw alrdy, 74, 80, 85 all (much) higher as the 135 (which is almost ``cold``...)

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