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StahlJager

~500k Gold stolen from OTTER's Treasury

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I love this story. Almost nobody knows the actual details, but everyone points to it as an example of a case that demonstrates the necessity of tort reform. It's always a bit amusing to see someone's opinion change when they learn of the third-degree burns and skin grafts.

 

Yea there was a good documentary about this and how a lot people demonized this woman, but when the facts are examined it does become a different story..

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By the way, even now for us on the outside, we don't know from certainty whether both Tioga and Von did the deed, or maybe it was Tioga hacking Von making it look like they both did it, or the other way around. Or maybe it was a 3rd person hacking both of them.

 

So let me be the devil's advocate here and say that we put down the pitchforks until we can determine what the fuck exactly happened behind the curtain.

 

Most sane argument in this entire thread(/t).

 

The chances may be slim. But you guys need to find yourself another monster to hunt with all those pitchforks and torches around for the time being.

It's digital gold in a game, yes it stillsucks.

As someone with no hard feelings towards either side (=Yuro) I'd suggest you take a break to think about what happened here.

It sounds really weird to grab this much gold and then basically never play the game again. From this point onward half the community is trying to get back at you and you'll never be able to join any decent clan again.

Is that me or does it actually sound rather illogical to risk that just for unlimited premium time and all the premium tanks and free exp you ever wanted ...

 

...Oh shit this is actually very tempting.

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Right, and maybe thats why people are declared innocent 30 years after they convicted of murder/rape.

 

But i hardly doubt this is the place for this argument, but thanks for bringing up the case anyhow.

Nyet, comrade.  Read closer.  He was in no event declared innocent.  Instead, they decided to retry a 30 year old case that wasn't done very well, couldn't put the evidence back together, and dropped charges.  He may or may not have actually done it.

 

Is that your best example of the legal atrocities you read every day?  The ones that make it impossible to know right from wrong?

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Nyet, comrade.  Read closer.  He was in no event declared innocent.  Instead, they decided to retry a 30 year old case that wasn't done very well, couldn't put the evidence back together, and dropped charges.  He may or may not have actually done it.

 

Is that your best example of the legal atrocities you read every day?  The ones that make it impossible to know right from wrong?

Whether he did the deed or not, only he knows thats for sure, but im sure he deserved those 30 years because nobody bothered to look closer.

 

Just as we are so sure that Tioga is the antichrist.

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Here's the IRS's take..http://www.irs.gov/uac/Newsroom/IRS-Virtual-Currency-Guidance

The interesting part is this blurb-

"In some environments, virtual currency operates like “real” currency -- i.e., the coin and paper money of the United States or of any other country that is designated as legal tender, circulates, and is customarily used and accepted as a medium of exchange in the country of issuance -- but it does not have legal tender status in any jurisdiction."

Hah, you comparing crypto currency to gold in WoT makes me laugh.

It was just supposed to serve as an obvious example that 1s and 0s have value.  You're avoiding the point.

It doesn't need to be currency to have value.  Even though it isnt approved by WG accounts are sold.  Ingame and virtual goods therefore clearly have a market value. 

If that one doesn't penetrate here's another.  People buy music on the internet( access to those 1s and 0s). Stealing it is recognized as illegal.

 

They will not be punished.  WG has no rule against this, AND punishing them would be a complete flip of precedent.  They can even call it "roleplay" or something.  I dunno what other games you guys have played where.  The only reason I would want to see them punished (other than socially) is if they tried to sell the accounts.  But even then nothing would happen.

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With all this talk about gold being a virtual currency, do i need to declare all my skirmish gold for tax purposes? :^)

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Whether he did the deed or not, only he knows thats for sure, but im sure he deserved those 30 years because nobody bothered to look closer.

 

Just as we are so sure that Tioga is the antichrist.

Whether or not he did the deed, you tried to misrepresent his case as something it wasn't.  This whole farce you try to run of "the truth is unknowable" is so much bullshit.

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It was just supposed to serve as an obvious example that 1s and 0s have value.  You're avoiding the point.

It doesn't need to be currency to have value.  Even though it isnt approved by WG accounts are sold.  Ingame and virtual goods therefore clearly have a market value. 

If that one doesn't penetrate here's another.  People buy music on the internet( access to those 1s and 0s). Stealing it is recognized as illegal.

 

They will not be punished.  WG has no rule against this, AND punishing them would be a complete flip of precedent.  They can even call it "roleplay" or something.  I dunno what other games you guys have played where.  The only reason I would want to see them punished (other than socially) is if they tried to sell the accounts.  But even then nothing would happen.

I provided a very specific example of 'computer stuff' not having value (WoT's gold that has not been paid for), I didn't lump it all together. You did. Also, say it doesn't need to be currency (when you site crypto CURRENCY) as an example seems sort of silly, doesn't it?

 

Also, just because YOU pay for it, doesn't mean it has value, it means you find it valuable...

 

With exception to commodities where obvious rules of scarcity are in play, very little things are intrinsically valuable. Perhaps my sweet loving provides you with a more tangible example?

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With all this talk about gold being a virtual currency, do i need to declare all my skirmish gold for tax purposes? :^)

This is not funny.  I have wondered when the I.R.S. will decide that virtual currencies should be subject to income taxation.

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With all this talk about gold being a virtual currency, do i need to declare all my skirmish gold for tax purposes? :^)

While it would be the pinnacle of absurdity, this IS the IRS we're talking about.

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Whether or not he did the deed, you tried to misrepresent his case as something it wasn't.  This whole farce you try to run of "the truth is unknowable" is so much bullshit.

 

So you're saying that the law isn't a man-created attempt at getting the most accurate guesses about who did what in the first place?

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There's a difference though between acknowledging that bad things will happen and doing next to nothing to stop said bad things from happening.

If that were the case, car companies might as well remove all locks from car doors, since people can find a way to steal your car anyway.  Bank's might as well remove security questions since it's still possible for someone to steal your identity etc etc

 

There are simple things that WG could implement that would at least make it harder for something like this to happen.  Allowing Commanders to set specific permissions to individuals as well as setting limits on both a per transaction and per timeframe basis (to avoid trickling gold out) would be ways to help.  The inability to stamp out a problem 100% doesn't mean you can't take steps towards reducing the problem.

I don't exactly argue against that, it certain will help this situation if there were more limitations to what an officer do.

 

But thats only partially solving a problem , you can add more limitations too and that will certainly help more with these kind of things.

So lets say a commander goes to Hawaii for a month, doesn't have access to tanks because hes got a smoking hot wife to bang all day, the officer takes 1/30th of the bank, and since no one can kick him, he gets all of the bank before the commander gets back.

 

now, you can certainly say "Well lets make it that he can only take 1/60th of the bank every day", but i can say that what if the commander pulls a ChairinaCasket.

 

You can keep on adding more limitations, but at the end, you might as well make it so that the commander is the only one who can do anything.

 

And not only this, Tioga could of kicked every regular Otter member out of the clan, should we also add a limitation to how many an officer can kick too?

What if an officer maliciously throws chips in 5s to sabotage a war? should there be a limitation to how many chips an officer can move?

 

I don't know, and thats why i can't judge.

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This is not funny.  I have wondered when the I.R.S. will decide that virtual currencies should be subject to income taxation.

 

IRS is currently working on recognizing crypto currency as a 'legitimate' currency, only so they can tax it in U.S. dollars. Assholes.

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While it would be the pinnacle of absurdity, this IS the IRS we're talking about.

Not that absurd.  Suppose WG hired you to moderate the forums and paid you in in-game items which you would otherwise have to buy, or merely comped you with Gold or prem time.  I guarantee the I.R.S would determine that you had income and the income tax had been evaded by not using U.S. currency. 

 

I would expect that gold won in game could be set off by the expenses of the game itself, as gambling winnings can be set off by gambling losses.  However, our tax laws are outrageously broad and there is no telling.

 

Up to now the government has not paid much attention to on-line non-monetary transactions, but it WILL.

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This is not funny.  I have wondered when the I.R.S. will decide that virtual currencies should be subject to income taxation.

i remember something about the eu or na super testers got kicked because the gold they received from testing was considered payment and something about taxes. My knowledge is fuzzy about the whole thing. 

 

Trying to say this was theft and having punishment come down on these people could have unintended consequences. 

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Not that absurd.  Suppose WG hired you to moderate the forums and paid you in in-game items which you would otherwise have to buy, or merely comped you with Gold or prem time.  I guarantee the I.R.S would determine that you had income and the income tax had been evaded by not using U.S. currency. 

 

I would expect that gold won in game could be set off by the expenses of the game itself, as gambling winnings can be set off by gambling losses.  However, our tax laws are outrageously broad and there is no telling.

 

Up to now the government has not paid much attention to on-line non-monetary transactions, but it WILL.

Ever wonder why WG stopped using volunteer forum mods?

 

1.  They started paying them gold as a thankyou.

2.  The IRS concluded paying gold counted as a taxable wage, and thus, they were thwarting employment laws (minimum wage, withholdings, etc).

3.  WG stopped giving gold to volunteers.

4.  Volunteers all quit.

5.  WG hired people to do the same job, badly.

 

So tell me again how gold isn't real money?

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I provided a very specific example of 'computer stuff' not having value (WoT's gold that has not been paid for), I didn't lump it all together. You did. Also, say it doesn't need to be currency (when you site crypto CURRENCY) as an example seems sort of silly, doesn't it?

 

Also, just because YOU pay for it, doesn't mean it has value, it means you find it valuable...

cryptocurrency is 1s and 0s .  you said, and I quote, "Winning 1's and 0's in a game is not the same as a winning car, I doubt we need to further that discussion." not specifically gold.  Besides I'm pretty sure my wot accounts sell for dollars example covers this completely.  Check out the highest valued wot account I found that sold in the last 90 days over ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/World-of-tanks-Execellent-stat-account-RARE-TANKS-/331469040563?rmvSB=true&nma=true&si=VjDf1Zj5NjZCfy%252FdF6kHfjrLkds%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557600 bucks (mean price is like way lower tho ~30, dunno how accurate). 

 

How do you determine value then?  You not a fan of markets?  If people are willing to pay for shit it has value.

 

 

probably, not like its that difficult to do.

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Ever wonder why WG stopped using volunteer forum mods?

 

1.  They started paying them gold as a thankyou.

2.  The IRS concluded paying gold counted as a taxable wage, and thus, they were thwarting employment laws (minimum wage, withholdings, etc).

3.  WG stopped giving gold to volunteers.

4.  Volunteers all quit.

5.  WG hired people to do the same job, badly.

 

So tell me again how gold isn't real money?

Ha, I didn't know that Garbad- but it does not surprise me in the least.  I am surprised the I.R.S. has stayed out of the internal economies of games such as WOT.

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cryptocurrency is 1s and 0s .  you said, and I quote, "Winning 1's and 0's in a game is not the same as a winning car, I doubt we need to further that discussion." not specifically gold.  Besides I'm pretty sure my wot accounts sell for dollars example covers this completely.  

 

How do you determine value then?  You not a fan of markets?

 

 

probably, not like its that difficult to do.

You didn't read all my posts. We are almost saying the same thing, but disagreeing that WoT gold won (not bartered or sold for in any market) is worth anything. I stand by my statement. Maybe some people feel better thinking they spend all this time 'working' for there 'valuable' gold, when in fact it isn't that much different from any other fake in-game money. The money you give to WG (if you do such a thing) is valuable because the U.S. treasury and the federal reserve says U.S. dollars is worth something. No such doctrine exists for the pixel winnings you garner, despite your feels telling you differently.

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I don't exactly argue against that, it certain will help this situation if there were more limitations to what an officer do.

 

But thats only partially solving a problem , you can add more limitations too and that will certainly help more with these kind of things.

So lets say a commander goes to Hawaii for a month, doesn't have access to tanks because hes got a smoking hot wife to bang all day, the officer takes 1/30th of the bank, and since no one can kick him, he gets all of the bank before the commander gets back.

 

now, you can certainly say "Well lets make it that he can only take 1/60th of the bank every day", but i can say that what if the commander pulls a ChairinaCasket.

 

You can keep on adding more limitations, but at the end, you might as well make it so that the commander is the only one who can do anything.

 

And not only this, Tioga could of kicked every regular Otter member out of the clan, should we also add a limitation to how many an officer can kick too?

What if an officer maliciously throws chips in 5s to sabotage a war? should there be a limitation to how many chips an officer can move?

 

I don't know, and thats why i can't judge.

No system is perfect, but you can lessen the problem even if it creates more problems. Example, commander sets up gold limit per day. He is away for a week and the officers are trying to do a payout for a large amount of gold. It takes them several days to pay it out, since they keep hitting the gold limit.

 

Clan commander could have given clan position to someone else during his vacation. You'll still be in the same boat if the commander dies suddenly. 

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You didn't read all my posts. We are almost saying the same thing, but disagreeing that WoT gold won (not bartered or sold for in any market) is worth anything. I stand by my statement. Maybe some people feel better thinking they spend all this time 'working' for there 'valuable' gold, when in fact it isn't that much different from any other fake in-game money. The money you give to WG (if you do such a thing) is valuable because the U.S. treasury and the federal reserve says U.S. dollars is worth something. No such doctrine exists for the pixel winnings you garner, despite your feels telling you differently.

check dat link i added.  And read Garbad's post about the volunteer mods.

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I don't exactly argue against that, it certain will help this situation if there were more limitations to what an officer do.

 

<snip>

 

Instead of talking about putting stupid limitations on the arbitrarily assigned powers that the existing ranks have....

 

Why not allow commanders to create their own positions and assign whatever powers they think are appropriate?  WG is about 15 years behind the MMO curve on that one.

 

With the current setup, managing a stronghold is more restricted than treasury access.  It's just ridiculous.

 

 

 

I don't know, and thats why i can't judge.

 

However, when you have certain elements that assume the worst of the situation and then actively support it (PLSGO), you can safely make assumptions about their character.

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No system is perfect, but you can lessen the problem even if it creates more problems. Example, commander sets up gold limit per day. He is away for a week and the officers are trying to do a payout over a large amount of gold. It takes them several days to pay it out since they keep hitting the gold limit.

 

Clan commander could have given clan position to someone else during his vacation. You'll still be in the same boat if the commander dies suddenly. 

 

People dying, shit jus gawt realz....

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Ever wonder why WG stopped using volunteer forum mods?

 

1.  They started paying them gold as a thankyou.

2.  The IRS concluded paying gold counted as a taxable wage, and thus, they were thwarting employment laws (minimum wage, withholdings, etc).

3.  WG stopped giving gold to volunteers.

4.  Volunteers all quit.

5.  WG hired people to do the same job, badly.

 

So tell me again how gold isn't real money?

As a translator for WG RU I can confirm this. This is how it went in the EU as well. But WG RU and EU not being stupid f*cking idiots, they just offered everybody a proper contract.

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