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~500k Gold stolen from OTTER's Treasury

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OH NOES I GOT MODDED4FUN FIRST TIME EVAR ON WOTLABS PLS DUN BAN MEH

 

<3 Rexxie

 

I got a harsh talking to as well, perhaps I need to reconsider disagreeing with moderators. I went off topic, in the shenanigans forum....

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Here's the interesting thing about the lawyers, Okeano. Look at everyone in this thread who has self-identified as a lawyer. I think we have had a couple prosecutors, a tort lawyer, and me, a public defender. None of us dismiss the possibility that what happened was theft. We don't necessarily think that any authorities would be interested in prosecuting or that it would be easy to argue the case in front of a jury, if it came to that. But we do seem to agree that the actors are taking at least a small risk and that the risk of similar actions may increase in the future, given the way the law is moving.

If any lawyers disagree that some risk exists, please weigh in.

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Here's the interesting thing about the lawyers, Okeano. Look at everyone in this thread who has self-identified as a lawyer. I think we have had a couple prosecutors, a tort lawyer, and me, a public defender. None of us dismiss the possibility that what happened was theft. We don't necessarily think that any authorities would be interested in prosecuting or that it would be easy to argue the case in front of a jury, if it came to that. But we do seem to agree that the actors are taking at least a small risk and that the risk of similar actions may increase in the future, given the way the law is moving.

If any lawyers disagree that some risk exists, please weigh in.

 

I and many players I've played with have been threatened with legal action numerous times in EvE online. EvE online is also an MMO, and their developers allow you to do anything you want as long as it's within the game mechanics -This includes theft.

Whenever something like theft comes up, there's always that one guy that mentions  that it's illegal, against the law or that he'll get a lawyer. This is why I consider it funny anytime someone mentions "lawyer" over a pixel theft. Because it's a theft of pixels, nothing is going to happen. I can guarantee you that no legal action can or will be taken against anyone that might have been involved. 

As I've said before in my previous post, if there was even a slight risk of it being possible - I'd currently be imprisoned along with a large amount of other EvE online players. 

 

So please, stop all this talk about legal action. For an EVE online player that has heard it before, it gets annoying very quickly.

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WHAT WAS MLP????

 

DIE HERETIC!!!!!!

 

thanks for the heads up TUCO..  

 

how soon people forget

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I just realized Gandy has (had?) gold equal to 25% of Otter's treasury.

 

Loz has like, 1.9mil gold atm in his account.

 

Pays to have a skirmish team full of unicums you can AFK farm

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Its pretty funny how this is a supposedly a big deal. But lets look at it objectively.

 

 

Is it ok to murder/injure people for gold, silver, xp? (supposedly tankers never die though lmao, but thats just so WG can keep a teen rating)

Is it ok to destroy people's property against their will to get paid from it?

Is it ok to steal people's land which they would accrue gold from?

 

Would you do these things IRL or approve of them?

 

So it is ok (according to this community) to use force to take other's property, aka stealing land/industrial resources. But if you take gold peacefully from a treasury you are somehow immoral? Even if they signed something or had an honor code, isn't it still just as unethical to steal people's land or even attempt to? Isn't there lots of dishonesty and lying in diplomacy? Therefore aren't all clan wars and arguably randoms/skirms/SH unethical? Where is the moral outrage about stealing land/IR through force and trying to kill people?

 

 

Why are these things acceptable but taking it from a treasury where you were appointed without force bad? This is basically the equivalent of a bunch of Hitlers and wanna be Hitlers getting mad at a banker for doing something entirely legal. Nothing was done to cheat, exploit, or anything against EULA or TOS and WG will do nothing precisely b/c of that. If they wanted controls or limits or punishments they would add them in but they obviously don't and consider this fair play, and for once, WG is actually right.

 

 

So if these guys will earn social ostracism and shame for the price of 237k gold, it was obviously worth it to them. And I think shaming and social ostracism are fine but that is just your arbitrary "internet tonks morality" and actually means nothing outside of the shame/ostracism which they obviously don't care about.

 

Its so interesting how the human animal creates arbitrary systems of morality and tries to use social means and physical force to enforce them. It doesn't matter if the morality is self contradictory or quite absurd or even of "virtual" crimes (as defined by most people in this thread), and how other people breaking these contracts results in them being allowed to be hated with vitriol more than real people doing real evil.

 

Keep in mind gold cannot be bought or sold off an account.

 

TL:DR

 

If Emurder, Etheft, Erobbery, and Elying are already allowed and encouraged then how is this any different?

 

If the main goal of the majority of players doing clan wars is to get gold, isn't this the best and most optimal way to do it?

 

If anyone studies moral philosophy it would be interesting to hear their thoughts. Im tired but this seems pretty proofread to me.

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Criminal punishement should be based upon gaming theory in a sense. Some criminals, for example rapists, almost never consider the risk of getting caught and punished, they are compulsive. They deserve the longest sentences and treatment because there is no level of risk that will stop them. Others, like high dollar art thieves carefully consider the risks vs benefits, they will only commit a crime when it is a " good play." Escalating sentences for repeat offenses works there, you keep cutting into their odds and they know it.

There is a percentage who are institutionalized, to them life on inside and outside are the same, so there is no risk to them.

I do believe that what went on here would be in the scale between outright theft or fraud down to conversion, civil or criminal. Right now getting a prosecutor to take the case in the era of extreme workloads combined with federal interest being on terrorism and policing at local level would be tough. Server location is important, this could be considered wire fraud.

Dread Pirate Roberts is getting prosecuted for setting up an exchange for people to make private transactions and charging a fee. The Silk Road did this for a while, but then they started taking Bitcoin. This instantly raised its profile, because Bitcoin is a medium of exchange created at least in part to facilitate unmonitored and untaxed transactions. Bitcoin has ZERO inherent value, its value is determined between the parties to the transaction, it is backed by nothing. That sounds a lot like gold in the game to me. But the G became interested in Bitcoin facilitating illegal transactions, now Bitcoin transactions are drawing some heat, no the holding of them but the moving of them across international lines.

We are not at that point, but WG restricts gold transactions in the game so it doesn't appear they are creating a medium of exchange. Gold in the game clearly has value, you purchase or earn it and can use it to purchase things that you can also purchase with currency. But WG is the only clearing house. If WG allowed gold transactions between players it would instantly create a very different economy in the game, with those farming gold somehow selling it to others in the game below WG rates. Look at WG numbers, if even %10 if that went into a shadow economy it would be a multi- million dollar business.

People doing this are skating on thin ice, for example, if one of the guys from OTTER was the son of Ted Cruz and he was pissed Cruz would declare WG and SERB to have links with Putin and demand a full investigation. It sounds stupid but that's how some things start here, a person gets screwed and he knows someone who knows someone and the shit hits the fan.

I do not know EVE, but it's the same boat, it just hasn't risen high enough up the scale to catch the eye. But online gambling was like that 15 years ago, then the money got so big it had to get square and it has to an extent.

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With all this talk about gold being a virtual currency, do i need to declare all my skirmish gold for tax purposes? :^)

 

Yes.  And your upvotes too.

 

ITT: E-lawyers

 

Pretty much.  I'd love to hear what they think of the jurisdictional considerations or whether this might have traction in Cypriot small claims court.

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BTW, in my opinion WG should simply take the gold back from the offenders pending resolution of the dispute. WG has reached the size where credibility of its product and the environment that supports it is or should be important. This should be done publicly, using the offenders names. Doing so would send a message that we are trying to make our product credible and whatever money you invest or earn is safe.

If you are the offenders what can you say and do? Litigate on the EULA saying our theft wasn't really a theft under the agreement?

These game companies have marketing departments filled with ad execs and not one lawyer or person familiar with security issues who would recognize that this is the best policy.

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Its pretty funny how this is a supposedly a big deal. But lets look at it objectively.

 

 

Is it ok to murder/injure people for gold, silver, xp? (supposedly tankers never die though lmao, but thats just so WG can keep a teen rating)

Is it ok to destroy people's property against their will to get paid from it?

Is it ok to steal people's land which they would accrue gold from?

 

Would you do these things IRL or approve of them?

 

So it is ok (according to this community) to use force to take other's property, aka stealing land/industrial resources. But if you take gold peacefully from a treasury you are somehow immoral? Even if they signed something or had an honor code, isn't it still just as unethical to steal people's land or even attempt to? Isn't there lots of dishonesty and lying in diplomacy? Therefore aren't all clan wars and arguably randoms/skirms/SH unethical? Where is the moral outrage about stealing land/IR through force and trying to kill people?

 

 

Why are these things acceptable but taking it from a treasury where you were appointed without force bad? This is basically the equivalent of a bunch of Hitlers and wanna be Hitlers getting mad at a banker for doing something entirely legal. Nothing was done to cheat, exploit, or anything against EULA or TOS and WG will do nothing precisely b/c of that. If they wanted controls or limits or punishments they would add them in but they obviously don't and consider this fair play, and for once, WG is actually right.

 

 

So if these guys will earn social ostracism and shame for the price of 237k gold, it was obviously worth it to them. And I think shaming and social ostracism are fine but that is just your arbitrary "internet tonks morality" and actually means nothing outside of the shame/ostracism which they obviously don't care about.

 

Its so interesting how the human animal creates arbitrary systems of morality and tries to use social means and physical force to enforce them. It doesn't matter if the morality is self contradictory or quite absurd or even of "virtual" crimes (as defined by most people in this thread), and how other people breaking these contracts results in them being allowed to be hated with vitriol more than real people doing real evil.

 

Keep in mind gold cannot be bought or sold off an account.

 

TL:DR

 

If Emurder, Etheft, Erobbery, and Elying are already allowed and encouraged then how is this any different?

 

If the main goal of the majority of players doing clan wars is to get gold, isn't this the best and most optimal way to do it?

 

If anyone studies moral philosophy it would be interesting to hear their thoughts. Im tired but this seems pretty proofread to me.

I'll bite. 

 

cw is basically a perpetual war between various actors.

actors are clans and their members

wg is a creator

 

The first three things  you described are in war: murder, property destruction and taking property. 

Wars also have rules about how they're conducted and those rules are formed from previous rules and general concensus. Over time the rules might change based on changing norms and changing technology. In this chase clan wars has been going on for awhile and precedent has been set. The change in this case wasn't technology, but the biggest theft in the game.  Internet tank morality really isn't "arbitrary" since they were based on the norms of the actors and agreed on. 

 

 

 

Citizens in war are granted permission to do those three things by the state against another state. The hitlers are mad because they're fighting a war and one of their citizens just ran off with all the money to fund the war and hurt the country. 

 

There isn't moral outrage about those three things in wot because they're a part of war and they're not happening in the real world.  No one is really dying or being killed when playing wot.  

 

wg is like a creator setting out a list of rules.

war is like a state of nature, but with limits added by the participants (you can kill others in the state of nature, but you can't kill certain noncombatants or your own friendly people in certain circumstances in a war)

cw is basically a perpetual war between various actors.

stealing from the treasury is violating the rules of war as set up by the norms of the actors and the state, clans, and those hitlers are going to do anything in their power to punish the banker. It might have been legal, but it wasn't ethical according to the rules of war.

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Rock18,

Cyprus actual pulled a genius move a few years ago that took money directly from the backers of WG. Cyprus is the Caymen islands of that hemisphere, with notorious lax banking regulations but a very low breakage fee on transactions. When the banks needed money they imposed a one time fee on the size of the account, it was tiny on amounts below $100k ( the actual Cypriots) but I think %9 on the amount over 100k ( money launders and Russian oligarchs.). They complained, but what could you do, tell Interpol that the bank that I have laundered $500m in stole $45m from me?

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I and many players I've played with have been threatened with legal action numerous times in EvE online. EvE online is also an MMO, and their developers allow you to do anything you want as long as it's within the game mechanics -This includes theft.

Whenever something like theft comes up, there's always that one guy that mentions  that it's illegal, against the law or that he'll get a lawyer. This is why I consider it funny anytime someone mentions "lawyer" over a pixel theft. Because it's a theft of pixels, nothing is going to happen. I can guarantee you that no legal action can or will be taken against anyone that might have been involved. 

As I've said before in my previous post, if there was even a slight risk of it being possible - I'd currently be imprisoned along with a large amount of other EvE online players. 

 

So please, stop all this talk about legal action. For an EVE online player that has heard it before, it gets annoying very quickly.

You know less than you think, eve online player.

 

http://www.technewsworld.com/story/32441.html

http://www.inc.com/news/articles/2010/05/second-life-virtual-land-dispute.html

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Jesus, this thread.

I don't keep up with all the clan stuff, but this sounds like an extraordinarily shifty thing to do. Far beyond any mere shenanigans for the lulz in my book; that's an incredible amount of gold. I have to assume they'll both spend some on a name change, or else they'd be TKed every time they ran across anybody who knows who they are and what they did...which sounds about right.

That said:

I am not so sure about this legal opinion now. I withdraw it. Those that have more knowledge of clan wars than me are explaining that raiding the clan treasury might be considered a legitimate ruse de guerre under the rules and customs of clan wars. Nevertheless, it is an immoral and rotten thing to do to your friends.

I have no legal training, so take this for what it's worth, but: no property was stolen here. Not virtual property, not intellectual property, nothing. Check the EULA; none of us own any property in the game, virtual or otherwise. WG might well decide to permaban those two, retract the transaction, or both...or they might do nothing except warn people "be careful to whom you give the keys to the kingdom."

But legally, no property was stolen.

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Few weeks after he joined pressFotter, he was given DC. I randomly asked someone why would anyone hand him that in that clan of all places. I was told "he does a lot for the clan". Apparently, he does even more for himself.

 

He should enjoy his payout for keeping otter alive and n1 clan or whatever his justification was. And to whoever gave him access, they should pretty much resign.

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Bottom line is, it's now into WG's hands, and whether they do something or not is not up to us, even if we express all the dismay that some of us feel that someone in the community would do this.

 

I for once do actually agree with Allurai, and like he said

 

pnyh2AC.png

 

 

 

 

I get everyone's mad and on a plsgo witch hunt, but blind prosecution is exactly the opposite of what we and especially otter need right now.
PLSGO's shit posting might have gotten out of hand on CR/D, but not here so blanket hate just makes WoTlabs look toxic.

 

The moment the gold left the treasury it was out of everyone's hands (Unintended pun) except OTTER Co, Tioga/Von, and WG.

So like, the neg farm on Alice like wtf guys. I get neg trains are funny depending on the context (Like garbad shitposts and Xen normal posts ahuehue). Everyone here knows PLSGO had nothing to do with it, and even though this is a complete dick move it's not like this is a certain un named forum incident where PLSGO members literally defended actions which were probably illegal.

Like yeah downvote it (Alice's post )for being a shitpost, but tops that's worth like -2.

I'm not condemning anyone, Hell no. but like Solono said, like yeah you guys can hate but be chill about it.




Also Dlur. I'm just gonna put it out there, condemning teenagers in general... Just bad.
Ox, Ant, Shrew, Brett, and Gabe who by far are not old at any standards are some of the chillest and best officers/callers/people I have met in WoT. 

 

At least that's my stance on all of this. And as far as the rest of BULBA is concerned CW wise, yes it sucks but when they sort everything out we'll just keep giving them goodfights.
 

Tl;dr I think at least in general people need to chill a bit.

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PLSGO's shit posting might have gotten out of hand on CR/D, but not here so blanket hate just makes WoTlabs look toxic.

Cough...

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/shut-down-wotlabsnet-shutdownwotlabs

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WHAT WAS MLP????

 

DIE HERETIC!!!!!!

 

thanks for the heads up TUCO..  

 

how soon people forget

 

I knew you would come :]

Dissapointed we couldn't get a nice text wall though :[ 

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TO CLARIFY: Plsgo's shitposting on WoTlabs (The limited that there was before being handled rather quickly by our sexy mods) doesn't hold a fucking candle to the posting on CR/D.

 

And even then, just random pubbies hold far more perma's on WoTlabs then PLSGO users. Not to mention there is a rather large (bigger than you'd think) plsgo user base on WoTlabs who consistently are good members of the community, and for sure far more useful than myself.

Blanket hating plsgo is toxic, not as toxic as plsgo CR/D shit posting, but toxic, period.

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But here is the thing.. The blanket ban of talking about it sounds nothing more than cover up for the shame those who entrusted him should have to answer for now. If anything, its in their hands, not wg. At least the consequences.. I remember when somebody on this forum, somebody in a certain clan, fucked up with the policies of this forum and went behind everyones backs in order to entice players to join a certain clan.

 

That someone doesn't like to discuss certain things it seems, when they air laundry on a string in the middle of the town hall square.

 

To those not affiliated with said gag order, this is just a feeding frenzy that will not be forgotten nor silenced despite efforts of people doing damage control. People will talk about it, people will bait it, people will laugh,. Its just the monthly WOT drama/meme.  And you know what? Nothing will change, because nobody cares. Clans will still run in the same fashion, wg will still keep the system that allows 1 person without failsafe to distribute communal gold, they will still dump gold in clan treasure vs individual participants etc etc.

 

Its like with clan disbandment. People never learn, they just make creative excuses as to why it happens. gg wp.

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Bottom line is, it's now into WG's hands, and whether they do something or not is not up to us, even if we express all the dismay that some of us feel that someone in the community would do this.

 

I for once do actually agree with Allurai, and like he said

 

pnyh2AC.png

 

 

 

 

I get everyone's mad and on a plsgo witch hunt, but blind prosecution is exactly the opposite of what we and especially otter need right now.

PLSGO's shit posting might have gotten out of hand on CR/D, but not here so blanket hate just makes WoTlabs look toxic.

 

The moment the gold left the treasury it was out of everyone's hands (Unintended pun) except OTTER Co, Tioga/Von, and WG.

So like, the neg farm on Alice like wtf guys. I get neg trains are funny depending on the context (Like garbad shitposts and Xen normal posts ahuehue). Everyone here knows PLSGO had nothing to do with it, and even though this is a complete dick move it's not like this is a certain un named forum incident where PLSGO members literally defended actions which were probably illegal.

Like yeah downvote it (Alice's post )for being a shitpost, but tops that's worth like -2.

I'm not condemning anyone, Hell no. but like Solono said, like yeah you guys can hate but be chill about it.

Also Dlur. I'm just gonna put it out there, condemning teenagers in general... Just bad.

Ox, Ant, Shrew, Brett, and Gabe who by far are not old at any standards are some of the chillest and best officers/callers/people I have met in WoT. 

 

At least that's my stance on all of this. And as far as the rest of BULBA is concerned CW wise, yes it sucks but when they sort everything out we'll just keep giving them goodfights.

 

Tl;dr I think at least in general people need to chill a bit.

 

I doubt that will stop you guys from giving that piece of shit a home in your clan along with his butt buddy

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