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RichardNixon

WN9 candidate prototype

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On 18.7.2016 at 3:05 PM, Jaegaer said:

PR is heavily influenced by team games (on top of battle counts).

Maybe less NA unicums play team games (and more reroll)?

I would thing its other way, thanks to really good team play prizes NA unicums possibly play more team battles than EU. I bet real reason is simply that EU players have more games played on average -> higher PR-rating-

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On 16/07/2016 at 1:11 AM, RichardNixon said:

If no-one complains too much in the next few days then I'll probably ship it.

I'm excited for this! All the math seems to make sense and my numbers just feel more like they match up with their supposed percentiles. Thanks for all your hard work!

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Tier 10s are the best indicator of actual skill so you should really consider no cap for 10s or significantly higher than any other tier(even 9s).  Unfortunately T10 tanks do not have enough variety to properly represent all tank play-style, mechanics, etc.  If it did then it would be the only Tier that would matter at all.  No one should be punished for playing T10s even if they spam the same tank over and over.  I concede the fact that some players are more rounded than others but don't punish anyone for playing T10s(excluding arty of course)

 

My thoughts on the tiers:

Anything under T6 is next to worthless.  It is literally just attrition meta that has no real skill involved.  Grab a sick crew and move from bush to bush, kiting the poor nubs trying to learn the game.  Or pick an easily abusable tank and make new players cry.  Low tiers are have been such a problem for WOT as they kill potential player interest so damned hard.  Anything under T6 should be capped very low.

T6-T7     Is when some skill starts to come into play and some tanks actually gain an identity.  Sadly these tiers are horribly imbalanced and most tanks are pure garbage as well.

T8          Has a lot of great tanks which is no surprise as esports used this tier for a while.   Currently the highest tiered and important light tanks(plz WG give us T10 lights) are included in this tier.  Unfortunately MM shits all over tier 8 and light tanks especially are easy to pad for those who don't care about winning.

T9          Like T8 has some of the best tanks in the game.  For game-play purposes, mechanics, so on and so forth.  Many of these tanks could be balanced into replacement T10s and some even have unique characteristics that I wish some T10s possessed.  But due to MM, T9s have always been insanely easy to pad in.

T10:       See above. Hardest tier to perform in.  Best indicator of actual skill.

 

To recap my thoughts on the cap :P

Tier 5 and under>> Extremely low cap.  So low it should have a separate function/exception to handle it.
Tier 6-7>>>>>>>>>> Low cap but no where near T5 and under.
Tier 8-9>>>>>>>>>> Reasonably high cap with T9 being at least twice T8
Tier 10>>>>>>>>>>> No cap or extremely high cap

 

Just to note that I didn't consider arty as a part of anything above.  They are not real tanks and imo have no place in any statistical measure of skill.   That is unless someone made WNC(C standing for cancer).  If it were up to me arty would have no impact or bearing on WN9.  Any game played in arty would be neutral for stats or at most include the win rate.:serb:

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Me: (35 WN8 away from Purple Recents)

RichardNixon: (Releases WN9 Scale)

Me: (WN9: Light Blue Recents)

Me: F

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29 minutes ago, GotchMaster said:

Just to note that I didn't consider arty as a part of anything above.  They are not real tanks and imo have no place in any statistical measure of skill.   That is unless someone made WNC(C standing for cancer).  If it were up to me arty would have no impact or bearing on WN9.  Any game played in arty would be neutral for stats or at most include the win rate.:serb:

This. Games in arty shouldn't be counted at all. Is it  hard to implement? Just count the WR. Arties have no gameplay anyway, there can't be a measure of skill. 

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4 hours ago, sahtila said:

I would thing its other way, thanks to really good team play prizes NA unicums possibly play more team battles than EU. I bet real reason is simply that EU players have more games played on average -> higher PR-rating-

Actually no one plays this mode, they're moving Ranked battles from the NA server in the next small patch

 

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1 minute ago, TheMarine0341 said:

Actually no one plays this mode, they're moving Ranked battles from the NA server in the next small patch

 

What mode it was that peoples farmed for gold earlier?

9 minutes ago, kariverson said:

This. Games in arty shouldn't be counted at all. Is it  hard to implement? Just count the WR. Arties have no gameplay anyway, there can't be a measure of skill. 

No need to underestimate arty players, its different gameplay but excellent arty players can influence win rate even when going solo so clearly skill matters. But skill needed is less about mechanical skills and more about tactical/positioning.

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None that I was aware of, and Im generally in the know for quick/easy gold. At the higher levels there was some small gold prizes, but you could never get enough people on to play the mode unless WG's staff was playing and offering 500 gold if you beat them

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I honestly think how well you perform in your tier 10 should have a bigger impact on your WN9. Tier X is what everyone aims for and is where you'll meet the best people in the game. This is where it is hardest to perform your best because you are against better players at this tier compared to 1-7.

I honestly feel that tiers 1-6 shouldn't count to completely negate seal clubbing to raise WN9; equally tier x should take 50% of what your wn9 in and the other tiers from 7-9 take like 10%,20%,20%.

 

Thats my two pence on the matter 

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2 hours ago, GotchMaster said:

If it were up to me arty would have no impact or bearing on WN9.  Any game played in arty would be neutral for stats or at most include the win rate.:serb:

People who care about WNx would play arty more, meaning more arty in random. So please no. 

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28 minutes ago, DHP said:

People who care about WNx would play arty more, meaning more arty in random. So please no. 

It is all speculation at this point but as it stands it is likely that there will be more arty either way.  Reasons as follows:

-The other WN* typically punished good players for playing arty unless you were an arty god.

               WN9 as it stands will allow good players to pad(or at least not break stats) in arty and in many cases much higher than in real tanks, past skill barriers they could not previously break. WN9 as it is right now would reward many players for playing arty and increase stats in a metric that isn't really appropriate.

               A neutral WN9 for arty could possibly increase arty as well, considering people will not be punished for playing it.  But at least the inappropriate stat progression would be taken away.

Again I personally feel arty itself should be not be in WN9 because it is not relevant to actual skill in WOT.  It is a completely separate entity and has no business being included except maybe win rate.

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7 hours ago, GotchMaster said:

Tier 10s are the best indicator of actual skill so you should really consider no cap for 10s or significantly higher than any other tier(even 9s).

Anything under T6 is next to worthless.  It is literally just attrition meta that has no real skill involved.

Apparently that's a value judgement. The scaling of contribution with skill has a strong class dependence but little or no tier dependence. Considering the importance of skill, there's better statistical ground to argue the exclusion of heavies than tier 5. Which takes us into the next point:

 

4 hours ago, GotchMaster said:

Again I personally feel arty itself should be not be in WN9 because it is not relevant to actual skill in WOT.  It is a completely separate entity and has no business being included except maybe win rate.

Arty has the lowest scaling of contribution with skill, but it still correlates well with skill in other tanks, with only a small disconnect. It also has lower metric error than scouts do, at least for recent battles.

From a practical perspective, recent WN9 (which again is the primary skill metric) has to include all tanks, and no direct tier or class weighting is possible, so there's no option of excluding arty there.

Account WN9 is more flexible, but I'd be very careful about making it less general by throwing away cases where it works correctly. There are some legitimate arguments for excluding arty (the historical data sucks, gameplay is very different) and tiers 1-3 (data broken by newbie MM). However, there's little practical reason to do this: Due to the data problems, removing tier 1-3 and arty would almost universally improve the stats of active sealclubbers and arty players.

I did consider directly weighting account WN9 by tier, but that doesn't do what people are asking for: Pure sealclubbers go untouched, and players who slowly grind up through tiers are rated much higher than players who rush tier 10. Similarly, a mechanic that punished experienced players for playing lower tiers would simply bring back reroll advantage.

 

3 hours ago, GotchMaster said:

-The other WN* typically punished good players for playing arty unless you were an arty god.

WN7 was extremely generous to pre-8.6 arty. WN8 rewards bad players for playing some arty, but there's no such thing as an "arty god" in WN8. All good players were punished.

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1 hour ago, RichardNixon said:

Apparently that's a value judgement. The scaling of contribution with skill has a strong class dependence but little or no tier dependence. Considering the importance of skill, there's better statistical ground to argue the exclusion of heavies than tier 5. Which takes us into the next point:

I can't argue against the data as the majority of the data comes from players playing the tiers they are comfortable/enjoy playing.  The best players typically don't go back down tiers to club low tier shitters all day.  They gravitate to the higher tiers as that is where most of the talent is.  This is why green 50% T6 players go to T10s and turn into red 44%ers.

 

1 hour ago, RichardNixon said:

Arty has the lowest scaling of contribution with skill, but it still correlates well with skill in other tanks, with only a small disconnect. It also has lower metric error than scouts do, at least for recent battles.

I can't see the correlation here aside from the fact that good players typically pay attention so would naturally be good at an easy to play class(arty).  But players who can perform in arty are not necessarily good tankers, which is especially evident at T10. 

 

1 hour ago, RichardNixon said:

I did consider directly weighting account WN9 by tier, but that doesn't do what people are asking for: Pure sealclubbers go untouched, and players who slowly grind up through tiers are rated much higher than players who rush tier 10. Similarly, a mechanic that punished experienced players for playing lower tiers would simply bring back reroll advantage.

If you used aggressive tier cap scaling like I mentioned above would it turn out any differently?  As in using the best 65%(or whatever % of games you choose) plus removing most of the clubbers game with caps, valuing T10s the most, etc.

 

1 hour ago, RichardNixon said:

WN7 was extremely generous to pre-8.6 arty. WN8 rewards bad players for playing some arty, but there's no such thing as an "arty god" in WN8. All good players were punished.

Take td42 as an example "arty god", he did well even in WN8.  That account is arty only and has an account WN9 of 1373.1, which beats the top NA re-roll accounts by a good margin.

 

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1 hour ago, GotchMaster said:

Take td42 as an example "arty god", he did well even in WN8.  That account is arty only and has an account WN9 of 1373.1, which beats the top NA re-roll accounts by a good margin.

 

He has above 2k+ wn9 current in 3 arty (tier 2 and 3).... 

 

Yes you read right 2k+ Wn9...

 

New meta = play tier 2 and 3 arta ? :D

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I like wn9 but just make it so that it punishes arty. The last thing we need is a flood of arty padders ._.

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I don't like few things in these meters (not only the WN9). There should be much greater difference of expectation between tiers 9-10 and the rest. My argument is that at top tiers, meaning IX and X there are mostly good players, the crews are awesome and there is no clubbing like in lower tiers. 

Funniest_Memes_pokemon-go_14544.jpeg

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8 hours ago, GotchMaster said:

Take td42 as an example "arty god", he did well even in WN8.  That account is arty only and has an account WN9 of 1373.1, which beats the top NA re-roll accounts by a good margin.

 

7 hours ago, DHP said:

He has above 2k+ wn9 current in 3 arty (tier 2 and 3).... 

 

Yes you read right 2k+ Wn9...

 

New meta = play tier 2 and 3 arta ? :D

 

Alright, so you're calling the guy a God. And... You say that it's unfair he has a very high rating???

 

I despise arty and 99+% of people who play it are complete shitters who spend most of the game jerking themselves off with both hands and smash their bloody foreheads on their desk and sometimes randomly hit the left mouse button in the process.

... But.

Remaining objective, some arty players actually put time and effort and reach a point where they are indeed good at the game (i.e. win games).

Whether I despise those subhuman blow-horn asshole cake fuckers is irrelevant, because the fact is they are actually good at the game, and the metric should show that.

 

You worry WN9 is going to be an incentive for more players to play arty? Guess what's also an incentive to play arty: being a fucking piece of shit.

Playing more arty because WN9 is easier on it is like being horny and this feminine looking dude offers to blow you and you be like: "sure, this dude will do, he looks feminine enough". (No offense to gays.)

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46 minutes ago, NThirtyTwo said:

Playing more arty because WN9 is easier on it is like being horny and this feminine looking dude offers to blow you and you be like: "sure, this dude will do, he looks feminine enough". (No offense to gays.)

156971fba7f5a07b9a5e6ccf8531bd2be31cb49a

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20 hours ago, sahtila said:

What mode it was that peoples farmed for gold earlier?

It was just crazy tournament gold.  Even average players could get something like 1-2k/week simply due to the number of no show and complete noob teams.  Gold for top 50% during weekly play and same again for playoffs.  Good or decent teams would do far better; the only price was sitting through an hour or two of sheer boredom due to aforementioned no show and noob teams.

 

doesnt have any tracking or in game effect on PR though

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TD42 hasn't played any arta but the CGC since 8.6 changes. Is it really that surprising that he has some bullshit-tier ratings in formerly insanely OP tanks that have since been nerfed to the ground? Remember, WN9 is based on recent data.

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3 hours ago, NThirtyTwo said:

Remaining objective, some arty players actually put time and effort and reach a point where they are indeed good at the game (i.e. win games).

Whether I despise those subhuman blow-horn asshole cake fuckers is irrelevant, because the fact is they are actually good at the game, and the metric should show that.

They only way arty subhumans affect WR is by XVM clicking. That's not skill.

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15 minutes ago, kariverson said:

They only way arty subhumans affect WR is by XVM clicking. That's not skill.

While that is true for the 99+% who snort dried up Vaseline and inject themselves with Preparation H on a daily basis, it is not for the actually skilled arty players.

A skilled arty player is able to recognize valuable tactical positions on the map and will focus his fire on those positions. It just turns out that those spot happen to be used / abused mostly by skilled players, which may give an impression of "XVM sniping". However, having seen it, I can guarantee you this can be done without XVM extremely easily for those rare few players.

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I have already addressed this in earlier statements but here it is again.  I recognize some players are skilled at arty and they can have that recognition.  I pointed out TD42 as an example.   However, this skill does not translate to actual tank skill(what i feel WNx should represent).  It is a completely different game mechanism separate from all others and would need it's own measurement system.

I chose TD42 as an example for a few reasons.  Firstly I was aiming to have a reasonable discussion and not call active players out like a Garbad would.  No need to call out active players and basically tell them they are shit at playing tanks but can click.  There are plenty of players who can and will pad with arty using the new WN9, more so than they could otherwise, and have stats to back that up.

Without ever playing real tanks(on that account) he is one of the most skilled wot players ever(according to WN9).  Even using his recents which are not as impressive as his account WN9, he has managed to go from 2147(low blue) to 1032(super uni) in WN9.  Since it is being claimed that arty skill actually correlates to real tanking skill, this guy(again without ever playing real tanks), would tear shit up on the battlefield the same as other super unica.  These things are simply not true, but if people can reason that sitting in the back of the map, pooping on other tanks from a distance, with no chance of retaliation from those tanks, is the same skill-set as playing real tanks....then nothing I can say will make a difference.

Also this isn't aimed directly at anyone.  If arty can't be excluded then that is that.  I just wanted to say my peace on the matter.

   
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1 hour ago, GotchMaster said:

I have already addressed this in earlier statements but here it is again.  I recognize some players are skilled at arty and they can have that recognition.  I pointed out TD42 as an example.   However, this skill does not translate to actual tank skill(what i feel WNx should represent).  It is a completely different game mechanism separate from all others and would need it's own measurement system.

I chose TD42 as an example for a few reasons.  Firstly I was aiming to have a reasonable discussion and not call active players out like a Garbad would.  No need to call out active players and basically tell them they are shit at playing tanks but can click.  There are plenty of players who can and will pad with arty using the new WN9, more so than they could otherwise, and have stats to back that up.

Without ever playing real tanks(on that account) he is one of the most skilled wot players ever(according to WN9).  Even using his recents which are not as impressive as his account WN9, he has managed to go from 2147(low blue) to 1032(super uni) in WN9.  Since it is being claimed that arty skill actually correlates to real tanking skill, this guy(again without ever playing real tanks), would tear shit up on the battlefield the same as other super unica.  These things are simply not true, but if people can reason that sitting in the back of the map, pooping on other tanks from a distance, with no chance of retaliation from those tanks, is the same skill-set as playing real tanks....then nothing I can say will make a difference.

Also this isn't aimed directly at anyone.  If arty can't be excluded then that is that.  I just wanted to say my peace on the matter.

   

I think you make a very valid point in that arty skill does not translate (much) to tank skill. I also think that actual "good arty play" should be rewarded by the WNx system. Just like me or you put up a lot of effort to be good at tanks, these guys put up efforts to be good at arty.

Having a separate "WN Arty" metric could definitely work, but it requires extra work.

In the end, I do believe the simplest and best option is to leave things as is. I have no doubt in my mind that anyone who browses a super unicum arty player profile will quickly see what's going on and automatically (and likely correctly) assume that he will be a poor tank player.

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