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koel76

Swamp review/summary of changes (screenshots+replay).

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All my positions (south/north/west/east) will be based upon the mini-map of the respective screenshot I'm discussing.
Excuse me for the bad UI. after patchday, I just took a random modpack so I didn't have the default UI as a result, my screen looks cluttered.

 

Swamp used to be a very...basic map that revolved around sitting in arty cover and camping (because arty prevents camping).

Replay if you want to watch me drive around the map:
http://wotreplays.com/site/2022119#swamp-koel76-bat_-ch_tillon_25_

http://wotreplays.com/site/2022125#swamp-koel76-t-62a

1st one is more of a quick drive around the map - eventually had to stop because my bot friend started capping.
2nd one I actually spend some more time driving around with another guy.

This used to be the old swamp.
I've marked the old (usual) gud player deployment (in randoms) in the color of the respective base. The black arrow indicates common retarded pubbie deployment.  Center area being retarded is debatable.

eW5RJ9z.jpg

 I feel like WG has made some very solid changes, changes that will make swamp a decent/good map to play. They've also made some changes I dislike, because I "feel" like it has become biased towards the Northern spawn, this might just be because I've not played it in randoms - but I'll update it later once I have.
At first I'll go in on the new spawn/bases.

North spawn:
The first thing you might notice, is the lack of any cover. It seems that WG has eliminated the ability to cap if anyone on the enemy team is still alive and near base. Meanwhile, there's countless of bushes/ditches near this base from which an enemy tank can come back and spot you. 

Pro tip: Don't cap, ever again.  I feel like this was one of the bad changes.  There's no longer a way to win a game by fast capping. 


The new positioning of both spawns give each side a better way to deploy without taking early damage. What did however concerned (lul not really) is the positioning of arty. If you check in screenshot 2, right ahead of me is a river...you can cross that river in any tank without drowning meaning no sitting in base with arty.  While roaming around I couldn't find any positions arty could get to fast and stay safe in. In randoms, that'll be a good change because fuck arty. 


5vcnBk2.jpg

lj4syNy.jpg

 South spawn:
Pretty much the same story. River straight ahead can also be crossed by enemy tanks. So if they want to get an arty that's sitting in base, they can. But they'll be spotted long before.  

377VVKV.jpg

 

Position of interest:
2 tanks can push a batchat or something else up there, only point in doing that is later in the game if the enemy decided to approach the red base (in this screenshot) from the south.


jpJagi4.jpg 

SW corner:

Each side has an equal chance of taking this position, I believe a short engagement will take place here. There's some cover in the form of a (demolished) castle. Not sure what else to say about this position. It's good that they've removed the camping from this position. the reason you can't really camp here is because the enemy team has an equal chance of getting that position. Although I believe this position is better to obtain for the Northern spawn. By doing this you will have their H7/8 campers/snipers fixated on dealing with you. And if they aren't, you kill them.

EmZ5NXY.jpgMjVnC8c.jpg

H8 Area:
Not much to this position early game. It's very open and pretty much useless now* Will update later if I utilize this spot in a random. 
ehind me you can see the friendly base. As I said before: It's very open now.
In the second screenshot ahead of me, you'll notice an entrance to this position. Although, under most circumstances that entrance just opens you up to a lot of fire from different directions.
Another thing you can see is that the leopard is trying up to get into a position, you can get there if you push 2 tanks up. Once again, not an important position but later in the game it might be useful...just don't count on your pubbies to get you up there.
If for example your NE pubbies get rekt and you're in a platoon, you can probably farm some quick damage from this spot. 

5L7DPyt.jpgKTMwTwy.jpg


Now the most significant of all, and where most engagements will be happening: The northern part of the map. 
I really don't know what to say. Each side has one entry. And then there's one more in the middle. 
I sadly do not have any more screenshots of the northern part. But there's a panorama somewhere from WG, it'll be your usual stalemate - The good thing is: there's arty cover. 
2nd picture is one I consider a broken position if it's possible to get up there, from there you can spot any of the tanks they have at F9 without being spotted. It will require 3 tanks to push one up there...obviously, you'd have to win the engagement first to avoid being proxy spotted. Or if they don't send any tanks there, you get it for free. 
Picture 3 is another position the Northern spawn can use to dig out your campers. Put a light there and you'll have some fun spotting. As you can see, I spotted the leopard and he didn't spot me back until I fired. If you get spotted you're dead. Because there's only an open field to run to... So don't let that happen. 
Edit: It's a mediocre position, not even worth it ignore.

First picture: Entrance
2nd: Position of interest
3rd: Position of interest 

4r9xRQ0.jpg

5MSeFMj.jpgpT0tnMk.jpg

 

Miscellaneous picture close to northern base and ridgeline:
As you can see - the ridge line has been flattened and there's now some terrain irregularities here. Although, most of the time in a "normal" match there will be no engagements here.

ViAhPWP.jpg


One last screenshot of why you probably want to avoid going into swamp:

yXWnhY5.jpg


I don't have any other screenshots since I quickly did this on a laptop, if you want to see more  - I guess you can just watch my replay or head into a training room yourself. From all of this, I conclude that the Northern spawn gets the better deal in these map changes. 

PS: If any arty players can tell me where arty would go now, that'd be great.

If I play it once, I'll probably include where I think is the best place to go for some farming.

Edit: Forgot the minimap 22_slough_minimap.jpg

 

 

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This map is like the old Northwest now: Max sized map with caps in opposite corners and the major fighting areas in the other corners. Everything is spread as far as possible with a totally useless middle

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This map is like the old Northwest now: Max sized map with caps in opposite corners and the major fighting areas in the other corners. Everything is spread as far as possible with a totally useless middle

They could have made the middle a more viable area, I thought that's what they were going to do. But as long as arty exist, there will never be a map like Swamp/NW where the middle is actually the place you want to be at. Not just because you can get shot from every side, but because there's usually always an arty to fuck your day up.  
  I don't know why they made the spawns so far away from each other though.

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This map is like the old Northwest Highway now: Max sized map with caps in opposite corners and the major fighting areas in the other corners. Everything is spread as far as possible with a totally useless middle

OK, at least it should be easier to defend the cap... I hate getting capped out because it takes you two minutes to return to cap from the city.

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A lot of North arty is going to go, 100.00% of the time, towards the lighthouse.  It's sheltered and there's water to drown in when the team loses.  It is literally almost perfectly made for arty.  Sure it will take them a few extra seconds to drive there, but they're going there.  Book it.  Pred guarantees it.  I hate arty so I don't know what kind of shots you'll get, but I do know that the nature of arty players will draw them like flies to sh*t to be in a place with cover, derpable access from the West, and water to drown themselves in when they have their end-of-game hissy fit.

A MAJOR factor you left out of your review is that this map is just ridiculously full of trees and bushes.  Seriously, it's pre-9.0.  Bashing around in the training room we found a LOT of double bush camping opportunities.  There's also some ridiculous trees.  I am seriously tempted to keep this one to myself, but hell, I've gotten so much from Wotlabs I suppose I should give back.  The ramp you see in your first position of interest photo (4th one)- there is a fucking enormous tree there (off slightly to the left in your photo-D/E-4 area).  Seriously, it's ridiculous.  Knock it down for double-triple bush opportunities to shoot at the SE brawl area or into the middle of the map (it's so big it covers against both the middle and the south approaches using different bushes).  We had a Type 64 in there against my bulldog.  I was spotted at ~350M, I had to close within 170M to see him while he was shooting.  Another location that you can bank on people being at- scouts and TDs in particular.  It's elevated and the camo snipe opportunities are too good to pass on.  Expect North players to rush this early in the game.

I have a really serious feeling that with all the bushes, camo is going to be rather important at this map and allow for a lot of one-shot opportunities.  But there is enough hard cover to make me believe that it's viable for non-camo tanks, they've done a generally good job of limiting soft cover + hard cover in the same locations, and it's large enough that game play shouldn't be completely static.  Overall, a cautious positive first-impression.

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-snip-

That bush you're talking about, if you look at my replay - you could see the Leopard I was with knocked it down. I'm not sure why WG thought they should add that tree but oh well. I haven't mentioned it because I didn't have a screenshot of it. Regardless, that position is opportunistic only. IF you happen to get spotted, there's 3 "common" positions you can get shot from. Backing out will take longer than it will take for them to aim and shoot. I myself would not utilize that spot until the opportunity is provided. Other than that, I'll stay as far away from any position that has that many firing lanes on me.

As for leaving out details - My review included some changes at locations I made a screenshot of. I didn't go indepth. I intend to update this thread as soon as I get the map in a random.

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My two cents is that overall the map is a great improvement on the old one leading to shorter matches and less draws.

There are some great late game positions for arty if the North part contains all the enemy tenks... but it involves doing one thing that 99.99% of arty players do not do... MOVING from their original position. A fast arty has more of an advantage in the North spawn than south for early games but if the south is taken then arty has free reign. It's not a great map overall for arty, or heavies, but it is for opportunistic TDs and mediums with good gun depression

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I like the east road. Slow heavies going up that road get decimated due to low cover. 2 of the 3 games I played on that map last night I got to go crazy on that road.

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My two cents is that overall the map is a great improvement on the old one leading to shorter matches and less draws.

Short matches are shit though. This 4 minute battle trend just makes the game random and leaves you with no room to use skill. Like fucking Westfield...

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I fucking hate the new westfield. The SE corner is fun, but the NW is just balls terrible.

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I've learned that Wargaming and I are just not on the same page with respect to level design for this game. Every single change they've made recently has felt like they've made the map worse, not better, at least for me. They clearly have a strategy, I just don't get it.

They should have just retired this map. Seriously, how hard can it be to produce a new map, given the total re-work they did to this?

 

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I've learned that Wargaming and I are just not on the same page with respect to level design for this game. Every single change they've made recently has felt like they've made the map worse, not better, at least for me. They clearly have a strategy, I just don't get it.

 

Increase random elements, simplify the maps, shorten the battles. A couple of months ago a good player in a medium could on certain maps single handedly carry a team (Sand River assault for instance) for 8k+ damage fairly regularly. Not possible any more. I think WG is trying to decrease the skill gap via map design.

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That bush you're talking about, if you look at my replay - you could see the Leopard I was with knocked it down. I'm not sure why WG thought they should add that tree but oh well. I haven't mentioned it because I didn't have a screenshot of it. Regardless, that position is opportunistic only. IF you happen to get spotted, there's 3 "common" positions you can get shot from. Backing out will take longer than it will take for them to aim and shoot. I myself would not utilize that spot until the opportunity is provided. Other than that, I'll stay as far away from any position that has that many firing lanes on me.

As for leaving out details - My review included some changes at locations I made a screenshot of. I didn't go indepth. I intend to update this thread as soon as I get the map in a random.

First, I didn't mean to say your review wasn't good.  I'll plus one it now actually.  But the foliage is really noticeable on this map.  As one of my clan mates said, "They didn't use their usual Agent Orange on this map!".  Compared to the old swamp, there are far more bushes for a TD to hide from.  Especially with someone else doing the spotting.

The position I mentioned allows you to stay very close to the large right rock while still getting shots.  In fact, the Type 64 was essentially hull-down at the spot, behind two or three bushes (including the knocked over tree).  It was only one session on the map, but to me, it looked really OP.

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First, I didn't mean to say your review wasn't good.  I'll plus one it now actually. 

The position I mentioned allows you to stay very close to the large right rock while still getting shots.  In fact, the Type 64 was essentially hull-down at the spot, behind two or three bushes (including the knocked over tree).  It was only one session on the map, but to me, it looked really OP.

Oh! Don't worry, I know you didn't mean it in that way. I was just trying to explain to you why it wasn't that detailed.  I will look at the map again later during a battle - so far I haven't managed to get the battle.

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The D4 position is powerful if you have high-alpha TDs, they can lock down the entire west of the map. Yes, you can dash from cover to cover in the buildings, but you can't advance past the northernmost house unless you want to get shot up. 

However, it's not invincible since the two opposite ridges on either sides of the swamp got flattened, it's significantly easier to flank and move around.

I also found that northeast is useless (as per old Swamp meta).

And I've heard that east is the new meta now?

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I cringe when I get this map.. teams go into full lemming mode and die. From what ive had the chance to explore, it basically is a new map.. Has nothing to do with the old swamp.

 

I like it more than say overlord pos map

 

Hopefully within 9 months pubbies will have a clue what to do on it, cause so far its fail every game

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I cringe when I get this map.. teams go into full lemming mode and die. From what ive had the chance to explore, it basically is a new map.. Has nothing to do with the old swamp.

 

I like it more than say overlord pos map

 

Hopefully within 9 months pubbies will have a clue what to do on it, cause so far its fail every game

Yeah, I finally got it a few times yesterday.  It really is almost an entirely new map and it will take some time for people to figure out how to approach it.  It does feel much better though - until people learn where to camp in it I guess. 

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What are the good initial TD sniping spots? Like, where should I go from the 1st base and from the 2nd base? The map is too damn confusing now with all potentially good lines of sight blocked by terrain.

The old map was better.

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2fNSdrw.jpg

After getting the map several time I normally play it clockwise in anything with some speed.

South spawn

  • J4 lets you quickly see in case a large force is marching your direction giving opportunity to bail out through the K line riverbed
  • J1/2 lights the whole approach area giving some free early shots and forces any tanks going village or trying push you into a crossfire from houses giving them usually quick trip to garage after they helplessly swing their turret left and right
  • Quick check there is no camping waffle or death star in C1/D1 and you can push on the ridge campers from either side of the hill depending on your back up force
  • The small red dot on E0 is a rock with some bush giving passive vision control over the whole center area. Not used it yet it looks rather situational - e.g. you have heavy tanks MM advantage likely going north. This spot will deny early shots to your forces. But once there you are locked in place so use with caution.

North spawn

  • Early C7 run to spot north road and farm some free damage from slow tanks going north east corner
  • Then you can either go to D8 there is a dip covering you fully from anything sitting in base or on the G line ridge. You spot anything in G ridge trying to fire upon your C ridge and any fools camping base
  • Or C5/D5 position has a lot of bushes and you can fire from there like there is no tomorrow without ever being spotted

I am yet to get this map in heavy tank so no first hand experience. Real heavies should probably go north east brawl corner as there is a plenty of hulldown opportunities and arty cover hills from both spawns. Always from north and situational from south. IS7s and alike will do good on south west approach too.

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Sorry for necro.

But how is this supposed to be played in a heavy from north? Going to castle is suicide nowadays as every muppet knows you can shoot climbing heavies to side (at H2) + enemy is 1st at castle anyway and you can't get arty safe behind castle without taking huge damage. Only viable option seems to be going with meds to A0 corner, but then again you're slow and probably too late there.

In a platoon one can push to castle and most likely take it in control, but solo?

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On 5/12/2016 at 1:43 AM, Taze said:

But how is this supposed to be played in a heavy from north? Going to castle is suicide nowadays as every muppet knows you can shoot climbing heavies to side (at H2)

I haven't tried this myself in a heavy, but in @Cunicularius purple poaster replay thread he has a WT Pz IV replay on Swamp from the north (one of the two replays on swamp @ the linked thread, can't remember which one or I'd link it directly).  He went to C6 where there are lots of bushes to camo snipe into the 9/0 line.  After that he went to ~D5 and had shots into the entire enemy ridge line and castle.  You just need a scout to light up the 9/0.  I like the big pine tree at ~C7 for doing that.

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