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Chieftain, FV215b replacement

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2 minutes ago, MungeVolt said:

So what you're telling me is that a tank with better dpm than the T57 heavy, needs armor to do well in a server where spamming gold is an absolute sin makes it a turd? NA might be dead and smaller, but with the amount of gold spam people experience and still survive/win; results dont lie.

Fv is the only tank with a rear turret + perfetic weakspot.

Dunno how much NA people suck at shooting tanks, but even the biggest idiots on EU manage to hit this thing:

Fv_armor.png

Over and over, people always bitch (on wotlabs) about ``weak KT turret roof`` or ``weak E5 hatch``, but this weakspot is 10x weaker, its a crap as tiger P shoulder armor, you know, the tier 7 heavys, with armor people complain about for beiing so weak?

And this amazing tank has not 1 , but 2 of those things, which can even be penetrated from the front, so when not hull down you ALWAYS show a plate with ~150mm eff armor, when sidescraping you ALWAYS show a 150mm plate...

So ANYONE saying that this weakspot is not ``much of a problem`` immidiatly lose the right to complain about any other weakspot, KT turret roof, M103 hatch / roof, Obj 140 turret roof, they are all way, way thougher and harder to hit as this plate....

Another reason im responding is that im getting tired of the endless ``flavour of the month``, ppl out of nothing start hyping some average tank (see 113 right now) and out of nowehere people start claiming its good or even ``the best`` and they always used flawed arguments as winrate or dpb

  1. dpb means nothing, since it mostly role specific, you wont deal 5k dmg with an E100, you can with an WTF-E100
  2. Winratio is pure dependant on luck / unless you play thousands of games, even 300 games proof nothing + one player doing well doesnt make a tank good, there people doing fine in almost every tank afterall

Im sure Fv 215b is better as i think is, but Fv can not even touch E100 hes ass in terms of raw winpower, you get 2x the alpha dmg, way more armor, even more hp at the cost of mobility, shell speed and a bit dpb (some dpb, not much, 3669 vs 3416, so 250 dpb more)

ps: same for E5, i like the raw power of HEAT more as the shell speed of APCR (when the base AP is good enough) and the mid mounted turret + though UFP armor + bs turret armor + hard to hit / easy to hide weakspots + 8 deg gun depression make the E5 an incredible powerfull package, and the numbers support this

ps ps: rly, HEAT ammo gets way too much hate, unless the tank you shoot at is angled very steep or is an E100 / IS-x heat pens easy, the (lack) of shell speed compared to APCR or not beiing able to penetrate brick walls are bigger cons as ``tracks easting HEAT``

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12 minutes ago, GehakteMolen said:

 

Over and over, people always bitch (on wotlabs) about ``weak KT turret roof`` or ``weak E5 hatch``, but this weakspot is 10x weaker, its a crap as tiger P shoulder armor, you know, the tier 7 heavys, with armor people complain about for beiing so weak?

And this amazing tank has not 1 , but 2 of those things, which can even be penetrated from the front, so when not hull down you ALWAYS show a plate with ~150mm eff armor, when sidescraping you ALWAYS show a 150mm plate...

So ANYONE saying that this weakspot is not ``much of a problem`` immidiatly lose the right to complain about any other weakspot, KT turret roof, M103 hatch / roof, Obj 140 turret roof, they are all way, way thougher and harder to hit as this plate....

Another reason im responding is that im getting tired of the endless ``flavour of the month``, ppl out of nothing start hyping some average tank (see 113 right now) and out of nowehere people start claiming its good or even ``the best`` and they always used flawed arguments as winrate or dpb

  1. dpb means nothing, since it mostly role specific, you wont deal 5k dmg with an E100, you can with an WTF-E100
  2. Winratio is pure dependant on luck / unless you play thousands of games, even 300 games proof nothing + one player doing well doesnt make a tank good, there people doing fine in almost every tank afterall

Im sure Fv 215b is better as i think is, but Fv can not even touch E100 hes ass in terms of raw winpower, you get 2x the alpha dmg, way more armor, even more hp at the cost of mobility, shell speed and a bit dpb (some dpb, not much, 3669 vs 3416, so 250 dpb more)

 

Says dpb means nothing. next paragraph uses it as a point.

 

I've been saying this tank is great for over a year now.


The difference between that weakpoint and say, the 140s turret roof. Is I cant hide the 140 turret roof. There is NO situation in the game where you can shoot and hide your turret at the same time. I can hulldown in a 215B and not expose those shoulders to you. Hulldown in an m103 and tell me how well you can hide that roof.

Winrate is luck... isn't the entire point of this forum to disprove that? Seriously.

 

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1 hour ago, GehakteMolen said:

Fv is middle pack:

I upvoted you because of the great post but I fully disagree with you. Everyone pretty much has different opinions. I absolutely hate the e5. Opposite to you I can't find how people say it has armor when they play it. When I'm playing against it I shoot it on the lfp no pen, I shoot it with gold on the lfp, hell I shoot it point blank with gold still no pen. Then I procced on going to play it myself. VK4502b pen LFP on the move with AP, obj 140 keeps snapshotting lfp with APCR all pens, I can't angle because side has CDC amounts of armor. I play hull down, and that cupola gets penned a million times. I am doing 50% better in the FV than I'm doing in the e5. And the e5 has lower skill floor than the FV as most people say.

On the other hard when I play the FV I can go hull down in some spots rear turret allows me to and I'm not afriad of that stupid cupola, It traverses faster so I save much HP from not eating side shots. And then I play face to face with other heavies its invulnerable. But I do agree that is is an easy tank to kill when playing against it, I guess people don't know how to play it? IDK.

 

Quote

The Chieftain will give you a better gun on a better and less awkward platform. 

As people said you don't really know, from what we know it has a big tumor for a cupola with 0 armor. That pretty much negates the tank fully. You can't peak if people are looking at you. FV has a tiny strip of a cupola that barely no one manages to hit.

 

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19 minutes ago, GehakteMolen said:
  1. dpb means nothing, since it mostly role specific, you wont deal 5k dmg with an E100, you can with an WTF-E100
  2. Winratio is pure dependant on luck / unless you play thousands of games, even 300 games proof nothing + one player doing well doesnt make a tank good, there people doing fine in almost every tank afterall

Winrate is luck confirmed.


Seriously though, if you can't judge a tank on dpg and can't judge it on winrate, what on earth is left?

 

215b may not be as good as the E5 for most players, but it's still a filthily good tank in the hands of anyone who knows what to do with it. You know its strengths so I don't need to point them out, but the thing is that the DPM and handling aren't just good they're amazing, same for most of the good traits of the 215, meaning that it's such a good tank for a supporting role, and can even take an aggressive role as long as you can take a hit, because assuming you'll bounce a shot in the tank is a mistake unless you're hull-down.

Yes, the side armour may suck, but that doesn't matter if you don't let people shoot you there.

215b is an unusual tank, quirky as fuck with many weaknesses, but its strengths are so good that they more than make up. Just because you can't make the tank work doesn't make it bad.

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1 minute ago, Gandaran said:

Says dpb means nothing. next paragraph uses it as a point.

 

I've been saying this tank is great for over a year now.


The difference between that weakpoint and say, the 140s turret roof. Is I cant hide the 140 turret roof. There is NO situation in the game where you can shoot and hide your turret at the same time. I can hulldown in a 215B and not expose those shoulders to you. Hulldown in an m103 and tell me how well you can hide that roof.

Winrate is luck... isn't the entire point of this forum to disprove that? Seriously.

 

sorry, ment dpm, not dpb, hehe (and E100 damage / minute is only 250 lower as Fv, first shot counts very heavy, its the famous ISU thingy, ISU is suchs amazeballs tank not only because of the retarded alpha dmg + pen + soviet bias gun handling, but also because the retarded dpm it gets, 3780 to be precise, thats more dpm AND more alpha dmg as the Fv 215b, the tier 10 heavy with the best dpm...

And yes, single tank winratio is luck / meaningless, forgot the exact number and too lazy to calculate, but you need massive amount of games to get ``reliable`` per tank winrates, think of 500 games to get it down to 1% error margin (at 100 games it can be 10 or 15% to low or high)

ps: richardnixon or one of the other guys from math forum once posted it in respond to those solo challenges, getting a turd team and so on is 50/50, you get the monkey team, if you trow 100 coins the chance you get 60/40 or something like that is suprising big, but i forgot how to calculate this (and cant find back the number either ffs)

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Why is this even a discussion? Stats and multiple opinions of unicums prove that the 215 has a higher skill ceiling but is less noob friendly. How is a unicum actually trying to say that winrate is luck in a tank that he can't do well in? This is such cancer

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16 minutes ago, GehakteMolen said:

sorry, ment dpm, not dpb, hehe (and E100 damage / minute is only 250 lower as Fv, first shot counts very heavy, its the famous ISU thingy, ISU is suchs amazeballs tank not only because of the retarded alpha dmg + pen + soviet bias gun handling, but also because the retarded dpm it gets, 3780 to be precise, thats more dpm AND more alpha dmg as the Fv 215b, the tier 10 heavy with the best dpm...

Dpm of the 215B is 3885.5 Dpm of the E100 is 3592.86. dpm of the Tort is 4,670.96. Tort is obviously the best tank in game right?


also since when is the BL-10 Soviet Bias gunhandling. That tank gun you just as much as it trolls the enemy.

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Just now, Gandaran said:

Dpm of the 215B is 3885.5 Dpm of the E100 is 3592.86. dpm of the Tort is 4,670.96. Tort is obviously the best tank in game right?

 

Yes /thread

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Gentlemen,

 

Please ignore if this already has been posted.

In tanks.gg the data for 9.14 lists Chieftain as Premium Medium T 8

http://test.tanks.gg/wot/tank/chieftaint95#

Chieftain test data 9.14.JPG

Edited by hijoton
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5 minutes ago, hijoton said:

Gentlemen,

 

Please ignore if this already has been posted.

In tanks.gg the data for 9.14 lists Chieftain as Premium Medium T 8

http://test.tanks.gg/wot/tank/chieftaint95#

Chieftain test data 9.14.JPG

Chieftan hull with T95 turret <> Chieftan

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Agreed, overlooked the TX entry,

Mods, could you please remove this to avoid further confussion?

Thanks.

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11 minutes ago, kariverson said:

Yeah not chieftain xD But another tank that I'm getting wet over!!!

Needs to be changed for a tier 8 heavy premium plz.

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10 minutes ago, Gandaran said:

Needs to be changed for a tier 8 heavy premium plz.

Is there any point to that other than being more expensive? xD

 

EDIT: Oh I get it, for the crew. That way you're right, I got a 5 skill fv215b crew that'd love this tank :D 

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2 minutes ago, kariverson said:

Is there any point to that other than being more expensive? xD

 

EDIT: Oh I get it, for the crew. That way you're right, I got a 5 skill fv215b crew that'd love this ank :D 

yea my action X crew is ok but I have a 4202P to train it in strongholds. I need a heavy prem for my 215B crew.

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4 minutes ago, Gandaran said:

yea my action X crew is ok but I have a 4202P to train it in strongholds. I need a heavy prem for my 215B crew.

I'm sure TOGether we can solve this problem...

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12 hours ago, GehakteMolen said:

Many words.

All fine and dandy, but I suspect you wont find a single FV lover who plays the thing because of its stronk armor, which kinda renders the point entirely moot.

You can play a similar game with just about any tank you choose, even the most OP FotM (E5...) will still have something that a dedicated denier will claim cripples it (I actually know a guy who reckons the E5 is still a little weak, and has quit TS rather than listen to others point out all the ways its broken). But bagging a tank just because you dont enjoy playing it is the sort of shit that belongs on the official forums, not here. 

Spoiler

E5_Fv_winr.png

That is not the WR curve of a shit tank. 

/rant

12 hours ago, GehakteMolen said:

ps: richardnixon or one of the other guys from math forum once posted it in respond to those solo challenges, getting a turd team and so on is 50/50, you get the monkey team, if you trow 100 coins the chance you get 60/40 or something like that is suprising big, but i forgot how to calculate this (and cant find back the number either ffs)

Gaussian distribution curve. You could probably work out p values for it from a Student's Table if you cared to recall high school stats (I do not, stat maths bores me to tears). Of course the problem there is youre making an awful lot of assumptions regarding the equivalence of flipping coins and playing tanks.

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12 hours ago, Gandaran said:

what does the server have to do with anything?

Because being put down to 100 hp in the first minute of a match by 2 arty and doing 4k+ damage is favorable mm, also if you are blind the second picture is my damage over 50 games. Hell any tier 10 game should have favorable MM because OH HEY LOOK YOU'RE TOP TIER.

The platform isn't the cookie-cutter tank style. Again WHY is that a bad thing? It has a high skill ceiling. just because YOU find it awkward doesn't mean it is to everyone. I imagine the problem with the hull being shit is that you cant get it to work for you.

Zero proof. Have you tested the tank? no. Have you seen it tested anywhere other then the Chinese server? no. And lets be honest here. The Chinese server can't be used to estimate how a tank will work.

Since when is "ugliness" a factor to base whether a tank gets replaced? I think the 57 and 50B are ugly, so they should obviously get replaced right?

Also its not the fabric of imagination. There were blueprints of it, it just was never built( and wasn't supposed to have a 120mm). And don't say that's ground for removal because then we need to remove a large portion of tanks in this game.

Because apparently NA is gold spam city, so a different meta by descriptions thus your 'everyone knows everyone' server has little relevance to me or how the tank plays on EU. 

And the tank is not just awkward for me, it's awkward full stop, it's a rear turret tank with 50mm side armour, very obvious weakspots and very little armour full stop.

It's piss easy to deal with a sidescraping 215b, it's the size of a moon so is the easiest arty target around and the whole tank is made of fire basically. In the current meta as Gehakte says if you don't have alpha or armour then you need either excellent armour or excellent mobility, the FV has neither, any sensible E5, IS7 or E100 player won't let you use your DPM and even complete tards can out trade it with ease. The gun handling is excellent and so is the DPM, but then nothing special when you compare it meds, you are way more mobile, aren't huge and in the case of the Soviet ones have as good a turret they can use more easily. 

 

Whilst I haven't played the Chieftain, it's plainly obvious on current stats we've seen that it will be an improvement on the 215b because it corrects some of the worst aspects of the tank, rear turret, huge size, meh gun depression, whilst retaining it's strengths, decent turret, high DPM and excellent gun handling. You then ever get even higher DPM, even more mobility as well and a better UFP to boot. 

So no proof is needed, it's obvious, just compare them. Hell the Cheiftain even gets more engine HP and has half the fire chance.  

You like the tank, that's nice, but someone people like poor tanks, just because a few purples like the tank doesn't suddenly make it a good one. General consensus, even from most good players is that the tank is not great.

As alternative we have a tank that on current stats improves on what the 215b does, negates some of it's obvious weaknesses and is a very iconic tank that is far cooler looking. Most people are hyped by the Chieftain and ultimately disappointed by the 215b, especially as no the Conqueror is tier for tier flat out better than it, so I don't see the fact a few souls like the tank a good enough reason to not make the switch, plus I would be pissed if I had to grind out a new tier 10 when we've been told the Chieftain would replace the 215b.

 

 

 

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To feed the flames a bit, a few months ago (nov of last year, so right as we got the E5 buff) Nixon mentioned the hierarchy of T10 tank performance:

On 11/4/2015 at 1:45 PM, RichardNixon said:

For unicums, E100 = IS-4 >> IS-7 > Maus > Fv215 = E5 >> 113. The heaviums do increasingly well at higher skill levels. ST-I is still top dog at tier 9 by a distance.

I'm not going to say his word is law, but the guy does have quite a lot of data to play around with. I'd be surprised if the above isn't largely true.

I also agree that the flavor of the month attitude around here is a bit awkward, but it's something you learn to live with. It keeps things fresh to hear some random shit tier vehicle is suddenly worth playing, even if it turns out to be hogwash. Keeps me trying new things! :biglaugh:

edit: also you guys need to be more lighthearted in your debates, tanks are not srs business :ohnyes:

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1 hour ago, tajj7 said:

And the tank is not just awkward for me, it's awkward full stop, it's a rear turret tank with 50mm side armour, very obvious weakspots and very little armour full stop.

It doesn't have "very little armor full stop"

The turret is almost invulnerable and it has a little tiny strip for a cupola. Unfortunatelly JPZs and FV183s can overmatch the roof.

Side is only 50mm in theory. Add the fat tracks and the small strip of spaced armor and it's more. At first I thought the side armor was shit also but then I started using it at extreme angles and pubbies still shoot me and it absorbs anything like that.

FV is also the facehugging god. Rear turret means you can shoot the enemy easily but they simply can't shoot any of your weakspots. It's harder vs a retarded tank like the IS7 but possible because he can't shoot you either.

And I do often play it because of the armor and dpm combination. 

I still dislike the tumor of a cupola on the chiaftain it will make hull down useless and that roof and deck armor... At least it's small but a splash would take half its HP.

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1 hour ago, Rexxie said:

To feed the flames a bit, a few months ago (nov of last year, so right as we got the E5 buff) Nixon mentioned the hierarchy of T10 tank performance:

I'm not going to say his word is law, but the guy does have quite a lot of data to play around with. I'd be surprised if the above isn't largely true.

I also agree that the flavor of the month attitude around here is a bit awkward, but it's something you learn to live with. It keeps things fresh to hear some random shit tier vehicle is suddenly worth playing, even if it turns out to be hogwash. Keeps me trying new things! :biglaugh:

edit: also you guys need to be more lighthearted in your debates, tanks are not srs business :ohnyes:

IYO how does the 113 buff affect that ranking?

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11 minutes ago, woe2you said:

IYO how does the 113 buff affect that ranking?

I haven't played the 113 in a very long time, so I don't know. Statistically it seemed to increase the tank by 1% winrate across the board. That's a pretty good buff, but I think it might be a little off to say it has suddenly gone from being the worst T10 HT to something particularly good.

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2 hours ago, Rexxie said:

To feed the flames a bit, a few months ago (nov of last year, so right as we got the E5 buff) Nixon mentioned the hierarchy of T10 tank performance:

I'm not going to say his word is law, but the guy does have quite a lot of data to play around with. I'd be surprised if the above isn't largely true.

I also agree that the flavor of the month attitude around here is a bit awkward, but it's something you learn to live with. It keeps things fresh to hear some random shit tier vehicle is suddenly worth playing, even if it turns out to be hogwash. Keeps me trying new things! :biglaugh:

edit: also you guys need to be more lighthearted in your debates, tanks are not srs business :ohnyes:

Note, though, that those stats are from before both the E5 and 113 buffs.  (edit: you actually said that yourself... Eyes, plz)

If i recall correctly, Nixon said later that the stats for post buff E5 (unsurprisingly) put it at the top of the list. 

 

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