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Bludsuager

When is it considered damage padding or contribution

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Hi everyone:)

I had a talk with some clan mates about tactics we were running in a platoon and it came down to playing defensively and only sniping to actually pushing with the main force (2nd line) when we were bottom of the tier. I will admit I am a aggressive player and I over-extend sometimes, but I would like to know when is it considered padding damage and not doing anything for the team to suicide rushing and dying, over actually contributing.

Where is the fine line from being between a damage padder to being a suicider to being a help in bottom tier? I would like to ask your opinions on this. Also does this judgment come from what tanks you play or what tanks you face? (not saying scouts mainly heavies as mediums are A LOT easier to run around with when bottom tier than a slow russian heavy (t-150))

Thanks and hope this hasnt been posted previously posted or is in the wrong section:/
-EDIT: I have "cleaned" up the formatting a bit, and this is not the wrong section. -WW

Blud;)

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Ok, lots of answers can be given.  Mine is this.  

It's considered suiciding if you take your tank and uselessly get it killed, without benefiting your team in any sort of way possible.  Whether that is through passive scouting for instance, or becoming a giant fucking bunker, to even being that asshole medium/light tank that manages to semi yolo/try to stay alive just to distract the enemy long enough for your team to capitalize on the confusion.  If you're getting killed in an intentional play that doesn't benefit the team in any way, that could have benefitted the team in another way, you suicided IMO.

Being a help in the bottom tier really comes down to, did you stay out of the way of the big bois? Did you do damage when you could? Did you track enemies in the open if you had the chance? Did you basically be the support unit that a bottom tier tank usually has to fulfill? If you didn't do these, you were not a help/asset, you were a liability.

Padding is a tricky one, but basically it comes down to this.  Do you play a shit ton of tanks with stupid low expected values ONLY, just to pad stats? Tanks such as the E50, M46 Patton, T62a, various light tanks, AMX30, can all be considered prime padding tanks.  The hard part is this.  The M46 Patton, the E50, T62a, hell even most lights and the AMX30......they are fucking FUN to play.  The problem is that if you really fucking love playing these tanks, it will show on your stats that you love playing these tanks, but some may interpret it as intentional padding.  Personally? If you like the tank (me with the M46 Patton) and fucking LOVE to play it, then who the hell cares if it's padding? If I am a recruiter and I see that a person plays these low expected tanks, I won't flaw them on it.  Maybe they really like those tanks.  I'll just ask them to play some platoons with me, in intentional tanks OTHER than the padding ones and see if they are any good at other tanks as well/can they read a fucking map properly.  Tricky response for this one.

IDK what you mean by judgement though, so I'll give you my version so HA.  Basically, you have my version of judging another person on what tanks they play.  Now in battle, if I come up against like a T62a.....and I'm in a wz-132.  I'm not going to yolo past him and try to win, that's suicide I know for a fucking FACT I won't win unless he is around 1-2 shot and I'm basically untouched.  Now I would run if I didn't meet those conditions.  Next example, as a T34 backing up an E5 fighting an E100, I stay the fuck out of the way of the E5.  He's important, that guy is basically what's keeping me alive.  Now if the E100 fires, I try to track him in place AND do damage, but tracking first so that he doesn't get away.  Arty then can nail him and the E5 can cut him down DPM wise or just retrack him.

Hopefully I answered this to your liking.  Kinda ragey at the moment waiting for a meeting with a CEO to occur so my thought process is a bit BLEAH right now

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The most egregious example I've seen would be people with high-damage guns who don't take easy one-shot kills and shoot something else instead for the sole purpose of getting the full damage out of their gun.

Very few people actually do this though so it's probably not a good example.

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Well there's actually a large line between suiciding as a low tier and Chai sniping/damage farming. The problem is every game is going to be different so there's no one size fits all rule for this.

 

Funnily enough I wrote up a couple of paragraphs as a reply for this, re-read what I had written and deleted it. Im terrible at articulating my thoughts in written form so I think I'll just try and show you.

The first replay is a perfect example (imo) of when it's time to sit back and chai snipe. If I had tried pushing I would have gotten rekt. I knew the IS 7, Jagdtiger and Type 61 would push before the JpE could get across to me and so all I had to do was wait. (Ignore the retarded mm, welcome to early mornings on the ASIA server.)

 

The second replay is a bit different, just as I kill the Rhm I'm given a choice. I know I could go up the ice road behind the heavies and meds pushing into our base. I would have ample opportunities to use my gun dep and hide in the small hills while casually farming. But I also see the full health VK 4502B pushing past our T54 right into our base. They have enough guns, health and armour to kill what's in base quickly and start capping by the time I make it up the Ice road. So I follow the VK, slap him around with some HEAT, I do 7k and we win. Simple enough but it might have cost us the win if I hadn't gone in on the VK like I did.

 

Also pls ignore my platmates chat antics.

 

 

 

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From what I've seen, the fine line between a damage padder and a primarily passive unicum is that the passive unicum plays like a damage farmer most of the time, but when there's an opportunity to really swing the game by making a push somewhere, the unicum will leap for it, whereas the damage farmer will miss the minimap cues and lose their team the game by failing to leverage the opportunity and crush their respective flank.

 

Example:

I once saw Helionist on my team on Prokhorovka a while back, in a Leo 1 I think (definitely a Tier 10 medium, forget which one though), from Spawn 1. I got one-shotted by arty early on because I was too aggressive in the middle with my T-62A.

Rather than leave the match, I stuck around to see if I could pick up anything from watching him.

He played the back rails for most of the game, yet he eventually picked up on an opportunity when the game was 9-9 and bee-lined straight down the railroad tracks along the side of the hill, and started peeking over the rail road tracks on the side of Spawn 2.

This swiftly won us vision control, and he worked them down until the rest died. A passive damage padder would have likely continued to sit at the very back until one side's pubbies got bored and yolo'd in, or it came down to a draw. By doing what he did, however, Helionist essentially guaranteed our team the win. 

 

I hope this clarifies the difference. It all comes down to making the right calls at the right times on when to take the initiative. Even relatively passive unicums like Sela or Helionist aren't truly passive in the fullest sense of the word, as they dynamically react to what they seeing happening ahead of time.

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Padding is intentionally focusing on your individual performance even if it is a detriment to the team. Shooting at a full HP tier 8 versus killing a tier 10 would be a prime example of that. Contribution is making the best decision possible to ensure a victory, even if it hurts your individual performance.

As for low tier situations, I think you have to work hard to ensure what you are doing is providing the best contribution. Obviously you are not a massive threat as the lowest tier in a game, but you can make yourself into one by playing wisely.  Getting an enemy to turn their gun, or waste a shot on you versus killing a bigger friendly can win a battle. Even if you don't hurt the enemy you can contribute. Obviously, that isn't going to help your WN8, but it should help you to win. When you do get the chance to actually cause damage in low tiers make your shots count. If you can eliminate a high tier, you cripple the enemy team. Don't yolo for a kill, but be smart with shot selection to cause the most overall damage to the enemy team.

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Any sort of damage you do at all to the other team is a contribution in some way, as you're lowering their HP pool after all. But doing the right damage at the right place contributes more than doing it at the wrong place or time. If you leave a critical flank or engagement to farm a lone tank that would have done nothing anyway, I would consider that padding.

I think it's fine to farm on something after the game is 100% won and we all have guilty moments when we stop to get that extra bit of damage but to go a lot out of your way to do it before is pointless. 

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I for one find a huge difference between between farming and padding. Padding is done with low exp values, but farming can be done in anything that isn't retardedly slow. An STB-1 for example can still farm while the values for it is quite high. You go and put yourself in a position where you deal damage on tanks that aren't dangerous or will be able to contribute to the enemy team, I.E. bottom tiers or AFK tanks or whatever.. tanks that can't really hurt you while you put in the hurt on them. Shooting top tier targets should never be considered farming, because you're chipping away HP on their strongest tanks, no matter the situation. The argument can be made that a T-44 can barely touch your top tiers and don't really pose a threat, but removing HP is still removing HP from the team and removing guns quickly is the way to gain an early advantage. I think farming early game isn't bad, rather the opposite, the bigger the HP advantage/gun advantage you have early on the better. Mid game I'd focus on the main threats, since this is where the game is usually decided, and leaving the most dangerous tanks alone is a BAD idea.

The real farming happens midgame, where you focus on dealing damage instead of winning. Winning is made by gaining an advantage in something, whether it's tanks, HP, or extreme map control. Farming is where you only really HP on the HP area, where you're using superior guns that could actually be used better elsewhere, focusing on your individual damage instead of allowing your team to put their guns to use, if their flank is locked down or maybe they're getting zerged and you could have kept them alive a little longer. There's plenty of things that can be called farming, and it's making decisions that don't benefit your team but benefit yourself.

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Any sort of damage you do at all to the other team is a contribution in some way, as you're lowering their HP pool after all. But doing the right damage at the right place contributes more than doing it at the wrong place or time. If you leave a critical flank or engagement to farm a lone tank that would have done nothing anyway, I would consider that padding.

I think it's fine to farm on something after the game is 100% won and we all have guilty moments when we stop to get that extra bit of damage but to go a lot out of your way to do it before is pointless. 

Pretty much this. It's not always the amount of damage you do in a match but rather how, and when, its done.  If your damage is giving you an advantage in the area its much better then just shooting enemy tanks that are out of the engagement. If you're sniping at tanks that are 500 meters away while your team is being pushed by tanks that are 100 meters away from you then you are being useless. If you create an advantage in your engagement then your team will generally have health/tanks left when it is done, this force can then help other flanks or push to their base.

 

Of course it is acceptable to punish an enemy push with sniper fire if your team is capable of dealing with your flank without your help, it all depends on the situation.

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Very good question. What a lot of people mistake for damage padding is sitting in the back, and I think the problem people have with this (In particular, very vocal pubbies "CAMP NOOB NEED GOLD STATWHORE"), is you're not sharing your hp in any fight the pubbies may have gotten themselves in.

I feel the pubbies are very vindictive of players who snipe in:
Lights because they feel everything that is "LT" means "Scout" where the two are not always interlinked.
Heavies because you're not pushing with them (no matter if it's a good idea or not)
TD's, because "Useless camp TD noob"
I feel mediums get the least bad rep for trying to shoot from a distance.

(I just felt I might add what problems people might have and why they distinguish between the two as I Dia has already covered it entirely)

Any damage added always helps your team regardless of target, but target prioritization is very important. Like Trobs said (wow a Trobs post i agree with) Shooting an IS-3 over the loading JPE-100 while you have a chance or loaded Waffle would probably be just blatant farming, and someone who had half a brain would probably take the opportunity to point out that you're being dumb.


Anyways, on a basic level the two things are practically the same, but when it comes down to I guess the "public" reaction between always trying to brawl and over extend or in a way bait your team mates and support them, depends entirely on how you're doing it.

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I think it's fine to farm on something after the game is 100% won and we all have guilty moments when we stop to get that extra bit of damage but to go a lot out of your way to do it before is pointless. 

been there, done that, nearly fucked up and lost because of it many times.

 

"Shit, they are almost at our cap, I gotta go back and Res- OHHH Perfect side shot of a Jagtiger! SHOOT IT SHOOT IT!!!!!"

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Thanks everyone:)

I think i am getting the just of what you all mean and thanks for those replays Va1heru. Basically it comes down to what situation i catch myself in and making the best of it for the team over individual glory. Am trying to up my win rate over my wn8 at the moment since when a team folds and i was top tier i sometimes feel like i could've should've done more for the win:( Guess it comes with the learning curve i am stuck in atm.

But again thanks everyone:)

Blud

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I had a post on the main forums a long time ago that kind of discussed this. 

There are really two types of damage in any game (my definition):

  1. Contributing damage
  2. Non-contributing damage

Contributing damage is damage done that actually contributes to the winning chance of your team. Non-contributing damage is damage that does not contribute to the winning chance of your team. Very often, damage done late in games is "non-contributing". You know. You're team is down 13-5 and the enemy is just mopping up, yet you, in your ISU-152, still get off two good hits from cover before being overwhelmed. At the end of the match, your damage, and therefore your WN8 looks good. You can say "I did my part" (I really hate it when players say that, btw). But really, it's more likely your ISU was poorly played and therefore unable to generate contributing damage when it would have mattered.

To me, non-contributing damage is "padding", especially in those (possibly) rare cases when people play in such a way that maximizes the chance that their damage will be non-contributing. 

Of course, it's difficult to tell just exactly when a game goes from winnable to not-winnable, so identifying non-contributing damage is often impossible. It's more of a mental thing.

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Thanks Dingbat

My ability to use english and articulate my thoughts are difficult but your response seems to be the closest to what i meant:) i guess the right words for this should have been Chai sniping rather than padding damage (if i am using chai sniping correctly)

+1 and thanks for the input

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If you are neither sharing your hp/tanking shots or spotting, then you are only padding damage.

If you are doing lots of damage without winning, you are only padding.

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If you do damage and lose, you are padding.

if you do damage and win,  you are contributing.

 

Obvious aside, i've seen players from both sides of the aggression spectrum do extremely well while farming damage, so im not eager to say what works, because every way works in the right hands.

 

In the end, its the result that judges you, if you win doing it, you will be praised and the reverse will be hold true.

成王败寇.

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I may give an example of what i think is "farming-will" in oposit to "contribution-will". Yes, I think  that it is more mind-set and not some particular action, because actions are based on the mindset:

Prochorovka: going middle with good viewrange tank and just shoot, not trying to spot middle enemy force.

Himmelsdorf: being hidden on the route to the hill and wait to peek up "hulldown style", just after enemy peek-a-booms into your team on the hill and then again backoff after shot... continuing untill teammates died. Just before they die, just run away and find other "meat for enemy guns" to "peek up just after enemy peek-a-booms".

Generally farming is:

Prioritizing target that team is able to shoot to death in a second over target, that just you are able to shoot  (two tanks pop up from the corner and you are in position to shoot the one cover with body of "early dying mate", but still you shoot the one that regardless of your shot will die in a second or so... shooting with the mind that if I shoot this guy, there will be more dmg for me.)

Prioritizing target that is not able to "contribute" over the rushing enemy, that will kill your reloading teammate in the mind, that you will punish him later. And to extend this, every time one select to sacrifice teammates health for sniping oportunity (is part of attacking force and select to stop, aim, snipe into enemy, that is "juicy target" and is not part of any threat with the idea of "farm dmg" or idea of "i will manage near enemy just before our attack collapse").

Using just gun as a tool (not using HP, mobility or armor to help the team, but just as a tools to farm dmg longer).

Many green and better WN8 players I see on the public give up on cooperation.... changed the game to 1:15 fight, using the teammates just as meat for the enemy and as spotters. I know that cooperation in public is a dream, but many of them think that there are just 2 possible types of gameplay : cooperation vs. "alone wolf against all" and it leads them to "farm as much as you can". I think there is some other approach, that is more exciting type of play then just pure dmg/kill approach. Call it "colaboration" or maybe "assistance" type of play... green and better players are able to think about the game in more deep view.

I like zeven exactly for this... he thinks not just about his HP or how HE will contribute to the win mostly (e.j. most kills, most dmg), but about "whole team HP" and how to contribute (use gun, mobility, armor, HP pool) the way you maximize "team win propability" and that is the most exciting difference in the mind set between him and most other purple streamers.

======= sory for this, but it continues :)

Let me do some simplified theory of win (no capping this time, to make it shorter)...
Let say that the soul of a win is that our team need to stay alive longer then enemy team, so there are basicly 2 things everybody may do to win :
 - contribute to enemy fail to stay alive
 - contribute to our team stay alive longer
This leads to conclusion, that Trying to be better and better in the way "do more dmg by myself and stay alive longer" have its limits to winrate, because it overestimates ones capability to "win alone":
1. contribution of enemy fail to stay alive longer focuses just to 1/15 of wirepower of the team
2. because you focus just to 1/15 of "team alive" or 1/15 of "HP pool" to stay alive.

Changing this to proposed "contribution effort" is more demanding, but may break the limit and may be good theory.

I think by myself that there is nothing wrong on farming dmg, it is one of possible gamestyles... but it doesnt mean "dmg farming" is good play style, player that just "farming dmg" is just good farmer. Suicide runner is good one, if he successfully run into cap of the enemy in the first minute... and yes he may by successfull in this (successfully suicide)... I know that farming dmg have better potencial to contribute to win, then suicide runner style (at least winrate statistics and my theory of "stay alive vs. kill" may give me a clue why). But... farming may not be optimal way to win... ok... some proof?
http://wot-life.com/na/player/SchnitzelTruck/

IS-7 is tank that has armor and this armor may be used to "contribute to win", because it is asset, that gives advantage to your team... but if you deny your armor advantage from your team and use it just to protect yourself when you snipe, this may happen and well he have 90% lifetime in battle  (he dies last)

http://www.vbaddict.net/tank/schnitzeltruck-na-d5fd36ceb1258e63f0edb7e04015cd7b/soviet_union-0/is_7-28

IS-7 :  wn8 4 540,  winrate 50% solo (56,10% overall).

==========uf... thats not all?
And now to the "damage farming" rage, or let say "purple hate thingy":

many players try to "contribute to win"...
many players have its limits in the way they are not able to use theyr tank properly and
they are not aware what is going to happen in the progress of the battle (situational awareness).
they think that they do their best to contribute to win and yes, they are true, they really try, just not the optimal way, and yes, many times, they make things more complicated.

But at the same time they see more skilled players are not using its better knowledge of the game to help the team... it looks that they just try to farm. Thinking that farming is easy (stay behind and shoot, then back off) and that this is wasting potential of good player... what is happening is that pubies overestimate farmer skill the same way as farmer overestimates his value to the team and underestimates teammates contribution to battle.

OK ... summary: dmg farming is a gamestyle... not optimal but way better then not shooting at all. DMG farming means using just your gun as a tool to win, the way you maximize dmg regardless of the tank you are in and using other advantages of your tank just to do more dmg faster / longer.

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Padding is a tricky one, but basically it comes down to this.  Do you play a shit ton of tanks with stupid low expected values ONLY, just to pad stats? Tanks such as the E50, M46 Patton, T62a, various light tanks, AMX30, can all be considered prime padding tanks.  The hard part is this.  The M46 Patton, the E50, T62a, hell even most lights and the AMX30......they are fucking FUN to play.  The problem is that if you really fucking love playing these tanks, it will show on your stats that you love playing these tanks, but some may interpret it as intentional padding.  Personally? If you like the tank (me with the M46 Patton) and fucking LOVE to play it, then who the hell cares if it's padding? If I am a recruiter and I see that a person plays these low expected tanks, I won't flaw them on it.  Maybe they really like those tanks.  I'll just ask them to play some platoons with me, in intentional tanks OTHER than the padding ones and see if they are any good at other tanks as well/can they read a fucking map properly.  Tricky response for this one.

I feel this is most important. Sometimes it doesn't even necessarily have to be a low expected value tank. If there is a particular tank that one is good in and they play that almost exclusively, and then only play a few other tanks well at all, I would consider that padding, When I am measuring e-peens I look to see how many tanks a player can play at or above their overall WN8, and if it's below, how many are within a couple hundred.

For example, I am a 2168 WN8 player according to wotlabs. But I have 38 tanks that I play at or above my overall WN8 level, and another 15 within 200 WN8 points of it. I personally don't consider myself much of a padder, as I play tanks that I find fun for the most part, and a large variety at that.

Another player I know, unnamed as I don't wish to shame them, is a 2432 WN8 player. Obviously better, right? Not when I look at the tanks... He only has 2 tanks at or above his overall WN8, and 1(!) within 200 points of his overall. The problem is he has 18k+ of his battles in those 3 tanks (nearly 16k in his best WN8 tank) out of just shy of 26k battles. And I understand he really likes that one particular tank... but IMHO that is padding. Not to mention he only has 9 tanks total that he is better than dark green in.

The way I look at it, good/great players can replicate WN8 numbers in a wider variety of tanks than padders, even if the player in question isn't necessarily playing a low expected value tank/ tanks.

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I seem to be struggling with this, I use wn8 to improve my gameplay, its something that pushes me and allows me to set targets, but for some reason I am stuggling to really increase my win rate by an similar amount that would seem in line with people of similar wn8.

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I seem to be struggling with this, I use wn8 to improve my gameplay, its something that pushes me and allows me to set targets, but for some reason I am stuggling to really increase my win rate by an similar amount that would seem in line with people of similar wn8.

Do you platoon? If you solo exclusively, know that it is difficult to get a really high win rate and wn8 at the same time.  Soloing gets you a high wn8 (less damage to share with your friends who will most likely be accompanying you around the map).  That being said, people who you can rely upon escorting you around the map tend to net really high win rates.  A 3 man purple platoon can EASILY influence a battle.  That's 3 players out of 30........

What I recommend you do is to look at some map strats by Okeano, Rexxie, Sela, Garbad, etc.  Those are the first that come to mind.  If you know the maps, you know how tanks play out on certain maps, you can start to increase your win rate by soloing as well.

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If you're playing a medium tank above tier 5 the difference between farming damage and "contributing" is pretty little.. After all, dealing damage is generally how games are won.

 

That being said, if you notice something that requires you to push, IE other flank is retarded and is going to collapse while killing no one, it's in your best interest, for both wn8 farming and getting the win to push your flank.

Basically, you're a shit damage farmer if you don't push your flank when you need to.. Because winning your flank will give you more time and opportunities to do even more damage ^_^

 

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