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9.10 New Map/Tier system - T4-7 LTs no more in city maps?

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Don't you ever get tired of kicking puppies?  I spent over 450 games in the loltractor when I first started playing and after enough 8+ kill games, it started feeling dirty. 
I think the only real solution to this problem is to have the first couple of tiers play training missions against bots only.  Tier 1 should be solo play like the intro mission.  Tier 2 should be team play against bots.  Tier 3 starts the real game.

It's not about the newbs.  I'm currently in the process of writing another blog post about all the motivating factors for playing lower tiers, and it reaches far beyond getting to play against freshmen tankers.

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http://worldoftanks.eu/en/news/pc-browser/46/wot-ver910-changes-team-battles-maps/

Looking at the graph with the bars that indicate the number of the maps per MM spread I think I have finally understood what was lost in translation on Rita's blog:
the (LT) she put on the T4-7 MM spread should only have indicated the T4 LTs in that spread and the T5 LTs in the next spread respectively, no the whole category! It has been so misplaced that it caused some major "concern" on this topic, yet I really enjoyed the low tier map discussion, so I guess this topic was a success, even though it started with information that was wrognly translated.

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I'd rather they make it so you won't get a city map when you play arty.  Hell, they don't even have a place to drown yourself.

I was very opposed to the dowvotes this comment got until I read the second sentence...

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I was very opposed to the dowvotes this comment got until I read the second sentence...

joke
jōk/
noun
noun: joke; plural noun: jokes
1.
a thing that someone says to cause amusement or laughter, especially a story with a funny punchline.

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Alright, so it's been a few days. Is anyone noticing any difference, especially players who're mainly playing T5/6/7?

Personally, from grinding the new Japanese line, the map rotation feels a lot more stale. I'm seeing the same maps over and over, while some maps I've yet to see at all. It's somewhat frustrating but mainly boring. I didn't realize the change would have that much of an impact, but the net result here is that I'm going to really think twice about playing below T7 or 8. I totally get not dropping new players into a ton of maps, but I just can't agree with how long it takes. I have to get into tier 8 to see all the maps when top tier? Really? The map rotation should be completely open by tier 6, MAYBE 7. If you've played however many hundreds of battles it takes for a new player to get into T7, you can deal with playing on more maps.

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It is very stale. Just started a new account and himmelsdorf for the third time in a row is a definite killer. So far the Leo 16.02 has more open and varied mm but su85 and t34 are very limited in the maps they see. Redshire, himmelsdorf and steppes feature heavily if memory serves 

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The map rotation should be completely open by tier 6, MAYBE 7. If you've played however many hundreds of battles it takes for a new player to get into T7, you can deal with playing on more maps.

Have you seen how many tier 6 games you get in a tier 4 tank?

They'd have a lot more flexibility with the maps if they restricted standard tier 3 & 4 tanks to +1 tier MM. To dissuade sealclubbers, they can simply enable +2 tier MM after 2500 battles. Extend +2 tier sealclubber MM to tiers 1 & 2 and you can dump the newbie/sealclubber separation to reduce complexity.

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Tier 4 doesn't need +1 MM.  There are plenty of excellent tanks in the tier and the turds are soon enough shat out to get to the (hopefully better) Tier 5 that comes after.

Tier 4 should see the full map rotation, maybe even Tier 3, meaning BT5+ should be all maps.  Anybody who has reached a Sherman doesn't need their hand held with maps.

That said, IMO it's the HIGHER tiers that need some maps removed.  Mines has become utter shit to play above BT7.  If I get Ensk in my M103 one more fucking time, I'm gonna have an aneurysm.  I mean, these are maps I like, but I despise them in high tiers, where everybody can almost always see everybody else at all times, and they're just too cramped for high tier tanks.  I like Himmels in all tiers, but I cannot abide Ensk or Mines above BT7.

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Tier 10 Province was the best.  I LOVED playing it in clan wars as a yellow shitter because tactics were pretty much foreign to us and we would yolo straight in against another yellow clan who did the exact same thing.  E100s brawling everywhere

It was glorious......

I think they should bring it back personally. Put it very randomly in the rotation so every once and a while this map will pop up.

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Alright, so it's been a few days. Is anyone noticing any difference, especially players who're mainly playing T5/6/7?

Personally, from grinding the new Japanese line, the map rotation feels a lot more stale. I'm seeing the same maps over and over, while some maps I've yet to see at all. It's somewhat frustrating but mainly boring. I didn't realize the change would have that much of an impact, but the net result here is that I'm going to really think twice about playing below T7 or 8. I totally get not dropping new players into a ton of maps, but I just can't agree with how long it takes. I have to get into tier 8 to see all the maps when top tier? Really? The map rotation should be completely open by tier 6, MAYBE 7. If you've played however many hundreds of battles it takes for a new player to get into T7, you can deal with playing on more maps.

feel free to peruse my info on vbaddict to see the map rotations I get since i play mostly mid-tiers (no mocking my attempts to get better please *lol*)
 

http://www.vbaddict.net/battlehistory.php?go=search

 

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Tier 4 doesn't need +1 MM.  There are plenty of excellent tanks in the tier and the turds are soon enough shat out to get to the (hopefully better) Tier 5 that comes after.

Tier 4 tanks have less than half the hitpoints of tier 6, and far lower power level.  With the exception of TDs and a handful of mediums, nearly everything has very poor pen, including of their premium rounds.  There are also plenty of mediocre mobility, insufficient armor, blind tanks whose only in-tier advantages are overshadowed against tier 6 tanks.  
The problem is NOT that experienced players are incapable of leveraging their tanks (I love me some T-28), but that brand new players are thrust into a tier that is completely overwhelming for their ability.  You can get to tier 4 in your first 1-2 sessions, and then you are thrown to the wolves.  

It would be better to buff the tanks tier 1-4, but let them keep their current MM.  

I'm a bit biased perhaps, since I've told friends "don't worry too much about tier 3-4, they aren't great, and the game gets awesome at tier 5-6", and then had them STILL crash and burn at tier 4, leaving the game forever.  Hell, I was platooning with them, giving them tips, and encouraging them, and it was still a horrible experience.  This, was not a VG newbie like I was when I started, but a competitive individual that likes all manner of VGs.  

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do you think isolating Tiers 1-4, 5-7 and 8-10 would work? By this I mean Tier 4 would never see anything higher, Tier 7 would not and of course tier 10.

no, that would be terrible.  
tier 5 is a wonderful tier, but you would turn it to a tier that never got to be on top.  you would remove variety from all the tanks.  You would make grinding non-top tier tanks painful.  

And to what end?  just to fix tier 3, 4 and 7?  If you design tanks that can't handle being 1-2 tiers down, then buff the tanks, don't screw everything else up.
Tier 7 should be awesome.  It has lots of variety, and avoids seeing tier 10.  But the difference in power between tier 7 and 9 is much too high.  Basically, you could make the whole game better by decreasing the power gaps between the tiers, and you'd get less complaining too.

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 T4 and T5 is the transition point too for this game, you either learn that yoloing into the furball is bad thing and start using tactics, or you die. T4 tanks can hold thier own in a T6 match but the skill set isn't there. Plus the skill difference is major from 4 to 6, since the number of games basically needed to play to get from one tank to the next increases alot. A t6 player could easily have 3 times as many games under his belt, that's alot more experience and knowing the mechanics of the game

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It would be better to buff the tanks tier 1-4, but let them keep their current MM. 

I'm not sure that you realise what "current MM" means for tiers 3-4. Those tiers see an average tank half a tier higher, so unless the tier 4->5 gap is unreasonably small (eg. everything at or beyond T-28/Matilda/T40/SU-85B level), it'll never be palatable for newbies. Rebalancing the low-tier tanks is important but I think any legitimate solution starts with explicitly restricting the MM for new players. It makes sense even without the map limits.

Note that if tiers 3-4 became more popular, their MM would improve as a consequence. However, other methods of improving popularity (buffing tanks, increasing credit rewards, missions) seem more likely to appeal to experienced players than newbies, which defeats the point.

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 T4 and T5 is the transition point too for this game, you either learn that yoloing into the furball is bad thing and start using tactics, or you die. T4 tanks can hold thier own in a T6 match but the skill set isn't there. Plus the skill difference is major from 4 to 6, since the number of games basically needed to play to get from one tank to the next increases alot. A t6 player could easily have 3 times as many games under his belt, that's alot more experience and knowing the mechanics of the game

The below is a difficty curve per tier, as I see the game.
Green is ideal, Red is actual:
dif_zps7ccghoxd.png

(hyperbole lol)

The problem is not that tier 3-4 get harder, but that they get MUCH harder at an early part of the game for new players.
The new players are not even close to ready for this.
They don't have the crew skills, the equipment, and their tanks are very weak.  The game asks them to take a huge step up, and not in a way consistent with the learning curve of other games.

The game SHOULD get harder, and more complicated, and more skill rewarding, but it does it way too fast at tier 3-4.


 

I'm not sure that you realise what "current MM" means for tiers 3-4. Those tiers see an average tank half a tier higher, so unless the tier 4->5 gap is unreasonably small (eg. everything at or beyond T-28/Matilda/T40/SU-85B level), it'll never be palatable for newbies. Rebalancing the low-tier tanks is important but I think any legitimate solution starts with explicitly restricting the MM for new players. It makes sense even without the map limits.

Note that if tiers 3-4 became more popular, their MM would improve as a consequence. However, other methods of improving popularity (buffing tanks, increasing credit rewards, missions) seem more likely to appeal to experienced players than newbies, which defeats the point.

The +2 MM is really cool from the perspective of variety, and how it changes the game to be top or bottom tier.
But it would be better if the distance between the tiers was decreased.
I don't want the newbies to be sheltered from fighting fun and powerful tanks...I want them to have useful vehicles when they are at -2.  Something that they can reasonably be expected to learn in.

If the tiers were closer together, and more people were interested in playing tier 3-4, that would be net positive.  
There are lots of things that could be done to ease the players from tier 1 to tier 6 without making it a breeding ground of seal clubbers.  

First of all, tier 5-6 should remain the best credit earning tiers.
Buffed lower tier tanks would make it tougher for seal clubbers to get away with murder because the newbies would be fighting people, not the controls of their tanks.


Besides the buff of low tier tanks, I'd also want things that lessened the gap like:

  • all 6th sense all the time
  • minimum crew ability (90% primary?) for new players
  • beginner equipment that either comes with the tank, or is cost effective (can't be removed without breaking it?)
  • forgiving HP with respect to same tier guns (if you can be clipped out at tier 1, you don't get a lot of chances to learn.  should take about 5-6 single shot hits to die)
  • tutorials that lead them through important mechanics, positioning, strategy, etc.  

Clubbers would naturally decrease if they aren't shooting fish in a barrel.  

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no, that would be terrible.  tier 5 is a wonderful tier, but you would turn it to a tier that never got to be on top.  you would remove variety from all the tanks.  You would make grinding non-top tier tanks painful.  

And to what end?  just to fix tier 3, 4 and 7?  If you design tanks that can't handle being 1-2 tiers down, then buff the tanks, don't screw everything else up.
Tier 7 should be awesome.  It has lots of variety, and avoids seeing tier 10.  But the difference in power between tier 7 and 9 is much too high.  Basically, you could make the whole game better by decreasing the power gaps between the tiers, and you'd get less complaining too.

See now I did think about this and on the surface its true that T5 may never be on top but there are those occasions where you could be in an all T5 battle (if enough players are online) or all T5 & T6 tanks. 

Again it was just a thought but I don't think there really is any one good way of doing this as it would only serve to piss off one group or another. 

I suppose it brings up the old argument of skilled MM? A revamped MM? I don't know. I don't presume to know. What I do know is that being relatively new to the game that T4 can be a horrible experience

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I suppose it brings up the old argument of skilled MM? A revamped MM? I don't know. I don't presume to know. What I do know is that being relatively new to the game that T4 can be a horrible experience

Because many tier 4 are terrible and buffing t4 wont fix anything, since a hetzer is also shit in t6 games, while its OP in t3/4 same for matilda or any other good t4, all it would do is make t3 totally crap, so unless WG is willing to buff almost all t1-4 tanks A LOT it will always stay bad

The solution is like Richard says, +1 mm for anyone with less as 2000 or 3000 games, expierence players who use some equipment and gold ammo can already do much more vs t6 tanks as a newb with 800 games, 75% crew, no equipment and only AP and HE....

 

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Restricted MM for noobs isn't gonna do much.  The ONLY thing that WG can feasibly do is what they've done:

• Try to separate very low-battle-count players in the low tiers, 1-3.  It doesn't seem to work well due to server population, but it probably works okay during peak times.

• Remove vision control oriented maps from BT1, BT2 and BT3.

Anything else - making low tier equipment cheaper - is just tinkering at the margins.

 

The real answer is to stop treating low tiers as where you learn the game.  They aren't.  The middle tiers (4-8) are where you learn the game.  Low tiers (1-3) are where the new players learn the bare essentials, middle tiers (4-8) are where they really learn the game, and high tiers (9-10) are where these things are assumed to be known.

 

Low tiers serve two functions: (1) noobs learn how to control the game, meaning how to steer, how to aim, the reticle and bloom, reloading, magazines, depression, consumables, and how to move a crew, and (2) fun blowing off steam for more experienced players.  The solution for new players is to get them out of low tiers and into middle tiers as soon as possible, so they can learn the game for real.  Farting around in a Tier 3 tank is only gonna teach them so much.  They should play through to their first Tier 4 as soon as possible, starting moving through the middle tiers, then come back and play some low tier keepers once they know what they're doing.

So that's it.  That's the counterintuitive truth in my opinion: low tiers are not for learning, they're for introducing new players to the game and for experienced players to fart around in zoomy, pew-pew tanks that cost little to run credit-wise.  New players shouldn't be in Tier 9, but they shouldn't be twiddling their thumbs in low tiers, which are (to them) the lobby of the game.  Move them up to the middle tiers and let them learn.

As for Tier 4, I just don't see the problem.  Unless the new people unwisely choose to start with French tanks, Tier 4 has lots of great tanks that can be a serious threat to Tier 5 and 6 tanks.  Yes, Tier 6 has a lot more HP...but the biggest jump in HP in the game is between either 5 and 7 or 6 and 8, I forget which.  The problem is the newness of the players, not the tanks.  A little patience will work wonders; I learned to like my Lee before I had to sell it for the garage space.

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Restricted MM for noobs isn't gonna do much.  The ONLY thing that WG can feasibly do is what they've done:

• Try to separate very low-battle-count players in the low tiers, 1-3.  It doesn't seem to work well due to server population, but it probably works okay during peak times.

• Remove vision control oriented maps from BT1, BT2 and BT3.

Anything else - making low tier equipment cheaper - is just tinkering at the margins.

 

The real answer is to stop treating low tiers as where you learn the game.  They aren't.  The middle tiers (4-8) are where you learn the game.  Low tiers (1-3) are where the new players learn the bare essentials, middle tiers (4-8) are where they really learn the game, and high tiers (9-10) are where these things are assumed to be known.

 

Low tiers serve two functions: (1) noobs learn how to control the game, meaning how to steer, how to aim, the reticle and bloom, reloading, magazines, depression, consumables, and how to move a crew, and (2) fun blowing off steam for more experienced players.  The solution for new players is to get them out of low tiers and into middle tiers as soon as possible, so they can learn the game for real.  Farting around in a Tier 3 tank is only gonna teach them so much.  They should play through to their first Tier 4 as soon as possible, starting moving through the middle tiers, then come back and play some low tier keepers once they know what they're doing.

So that's it.  That's the counterintuitive truth in my opinion: low tiers are not for learning, they're for introducing new players to the game and for experienced players to fart around in zoomy, pew-pew tanks that cost little to run credit-wise.  New players shouldn't be in Tier 9, but they shouldn't be twiddling their thumbs in low tiers, which are (to them) the lobby of the game.  Move them up to the middle tiers and let them learn.

As for Tier 4, I just don't see the problem.  Unless the new people unwisely choose to start with French tanks, Tier 4 has lots of great tanks that can be a serious threat to Tier 5 and 6 tanks.  Yes, Tier 6 has a lot more HP...but the biggest jump in HP in the game is between either 5 and 7 or 6 and 8, I forget which.  The problem is the newness of the players, not the tanks.  A little patience will work wonders; I learned to like my Lee before I had to sell it for the garage space.

the problem is (i think), many people already quit before they reach tier 5 or 6, tier 4 takes a lot of time to get past, you will fight higher tier tanks 80% of the time, and with some gold ammo a KV-1 is fightable, but with 50% crew and no gold ammo?

They hae no chance, its basically forcing you to suicide for 100 or so game to get past that (16k exp with 160 exp/battle is 100 games, and when looking at VBaddict, thats how much exp a t4 gets every battle...) so for 100 games you are totaly useless, 100 games, even with yolo, thats like 2 days playing to get a stock tier 5 (if you even have the credits)

The powergap between tier 1-4 and 5-6-7 is ay, way to big, WG should buff the gun handling and hp of all tier 1-4 tanks a lot, perhaps give some t5 also a bit more hp, and seehow it goes, more hp means arty is less punishing, people wont die in 1 sec and they are in general longer alive + tier 4 wont get butchered so hard by even tier 5 tanks... 

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The solution is like Richard says, +1 mm for anyone with less as 2000 or 3000 games, expierence players who use some equipment and gold ammo can already do much more vs t6 tanks as a newb with 800 games, 75% crew, no equipment and only AP and HE....

 

Seems like heaven for rerollers to me.

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Seems like heaven for rerollers to me.

I'd be surprised if it was useful for padding. My experience is that once you know what you're doing in low tier tanks, you make at least as much damage in the bottom tier battles as the top tier. Spamming gold rounds into the back of a KV-1 gets you past the superuni mark pretty fast.

The current system is strongly paddable at tier 2 because you get to beat up newbies for 2.5k battles, at least on EU.

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What's really retarded about their attempts to dissuade "clubbing" is half the reason it happens is tier 2 is the only tier where the MM is what it really just should be at -1/+1, which makes people want to play it more than the rest of the tiers with shit MM. They've stuck themselves with a conundrum, they want the game to become more randomized "tier 7 facing a tier 9 head on" shit as you go up the tiers to twist players' arms into buying gold ammo, but they can't just start the noobs at being useless 1/3 of games right at tier 2 or they'll say "fuck this" and quit. Really if they extended the -1/+1 MM up to 3, 4, whatever, you'd just see more players beating on more seals because you get a playable game every time you hit battle instead of 2/3.

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