Jump to content
Okeano

Slippery slope of arty complain to TD complain

Recommended Posts

Have dumb pubs who used this argument been the broken clock that was right twice a day? 

 

Garbad made his first thread asking for TD nerf, then other loud anti-arty people like WarStore also joined in. I really hate letting the windowlicking arty defender being "right" once. 

 

I really don't see problem with most tier 10 TDs, not even the FV183. I can count the numbers of times I've been full pen by that thing since its release on a single hand. Foch is the only one that's OP due to all 3 combination of mobility, fire power and armor. Nerf one of the 3 and it should be fine. 

 

I think the main cause of the appearance of TD being OP is that they were underwhelming before compare to other 10s (with Foch being the exception because god forbid devs release one version of the French tanks that weren't OP as hell to begin with). E4 had its moments and then was quickly nerfed to silence. The rest of the TDs were predicable, limited, and easily countered. All the argument about alpha, pen and DPM seem to conveniently ignore how much more effort it is to place those guns onto target. There are exceptions for bottle necked parts of the map I suppose.

 

To me, it seems TDs are just brought up to the same competitive level as the other class of the same tier. If a well played medium or heavy can dominate and carry a game, why shouldn't a well played TD? Bad players still die before they get out more than 2 shots in them (other than 155 where you yolo 3 shots and die), and good players are still kept in check by their less combat flexibility. They are in no way as devastating to the game flow as a whole compare to arty.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone will always find that one line of vehicles that has become the bane of their existence and insist the game is broken and they must be nerfed...

As a TD player i hate auto loaders with a god given passion, doesn't mean I'm going to sperg out in GD calling for their nerf.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Mediums are not able to compete as well as they should in Tier X.

 

I think the big issue is small maps. Double map size and raise medium spotting range; I bet a lot of the issues would vanish.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Agree with you, i don't mind other tier 10 TDs save for the foch 155.

 

But one thing to keep in mind is that the average to bad player could hide from arty by humping a big rock or building. Now with less arty they can move out and about but they don't know how to deal with TDs. They haven't figured that that big barrel will hurt them if they get in front of it, so they keep feeding themselves to TDs and then they cry because they hit so hard.

Link to post
Share on other sites

They haven't figured that that big barrel will hurt them if they get in front of it, so they keep feeding themselves to TDs and then they cry because they hit so hard.

 

I swear it should have worked m8, I saw it in a movie once

 

TBH TDs as a class aren't a huge issue, they definitely have an enormous ability to swing games in their favor with that alpha strike, but that's the compensation they get for lacking a turret, etc. For me the only thing that makes me sad is loading into a T10 match and seeing 6-8 TDs a side (which has been more common than you'd think), since that's a huge amount of alpha no matter where you go!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Really, all they have to do is nerf foch 155 armor... the main characteristic of the French TD's is high ROF, good damage, high mobility.  There must've been some miscalculation when giving the 155 its armor, and they just kept it that way.  With a 3 clip, high alpha cannon, it shouldn't be able to fire and sit there aiming straight at the enemy without fearing return fire.

 

I like the idea of increasing draw distance to an entire map (seriously, tanks like the Tiger should be able to shoot further than 500m...), and then increasing the view range of end tier meds.  

 

Problems solved. (?)

Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree Okeano.  I didn't think the arty was all that bad..just needed some tweaking of how many were on a team per battle imo.  TDs have always been the boogie man.  It was not till the arty were pretty much gone after what was done to them that people got to see just how dangerous TDs are.  Now I do not think that there is any reason what so ever to touch the TDs in any way other than to play them.Those who think TDs are bad only think that way when they are not playing TDs.  It was the same way with arty.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree Okeano. I didn't think the arty was all that bad.

You misunderstood my position on arty then. They are now where they should be, low risk low reward class. TDs are fine too, excpet for the 155.
Link to post
Share on other sites

IMO arty was the natural enemy of TDs. And it is working like in nature. You wipe out the predator, another comes up to take his place.

 

Again IMO arty was nerfed too hard. It needed a nerf and it is good that nerf happened but I think it basically made it extinct and even if its present you do not need to fear it so much. I could probably count on my one hand times I was one shooted by arty after the nerf or on count on two hands I was seriously damaged by it. As a consequence TDs came out from their holes and took up an empty space in the food chain of tanks.

 

I do not have a problem personally with TDs, some are harder to counter than others but this is still normal and in reasonable numbers 2-3 per game (I am still talking about high tier games) they are not a problem. But due to not having a natural enemy their numbers are increasing and that becomes at least in my eyes a problem, cause 5-8 TDs per side with the amount of alpha they can pump out means they can one shot (2 TDs shooting at the same time) you pretty much anywhere (slight exaggeration) on the map while you need few well aimed shots due to most having a good armour.

 

I knew that the whiners will come after TDs as soon as I heard about the arty nerf, but nerfing them is not a solution, because then they will move to whine about heavies, then about meds and so on until we will be left with nothing more than bicycles and sticks to put them in the wheels. For me the solution will be to slightly buff the arty, mind you very slightly, only to the level where TDs start to be afraid again to stand in the open in packs. That's my personal opinion on that matter.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with the notion that the only TD that is really out there is the 155 - and it has a very big downside.

 

I was actually thinking that if the game became World of Tank Destroyers, that more people would end up playing arty again to counter the TDs.

 

I also agree that arty in general was nerfed too hard, and in the wrong way.  It was, however, very effective at getting people to stop playing it, which very effectively increased enjoyment of the game for me and many people.  The dispersion nerf was the worst part of it - I could see major hull movement being given enormous bloom, but even with a tiny bit, it just explodes, so you need to focus on locations and don't have the ability to "flex", however, this is in addition to slower travel time (good), lower arcs (higher arcs would reduce camping better), and a relative alpha buff and DPM/ROF nerf, the effects of what they did is completely scattershot and ridiculous.

 

Maybe they just wanted to nerf it in to the ground and then gradually fix it until the population level hits a good balance, because the population level of arty was the biggest issue with it by all means.

 

Whatever, we will see.  The meta is always going to be changing, and the best players will generally be on top of how to take advantage of it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Its because after arty was nerfed to hell and back it has become something with little effect during a battle. TD's on the other hand have the potential to dominate a match when in good hands and thus Garbad and his followers now have no arty to complain about so they have begun a new campaign against TD's. IMO why constantly call for nerfs? Why not call for buffs on other tanks? Make the game/tanks better, not worse.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The only problem with TDs (some of them) is the game-breaking alpha.  That has always been the root of the arty-hate: people hate getting their game wrecked by a single shot.  The act that it was from an unseen enemy across the map only made it worse.  I think the line is somewhere around 700 damage.  That's a big hit for the TD to get off, but it won't completely ruin someone's game if they poke once in the wrong place.  No one really hates the 268 or the E3/4, the only ones that are problematic are the 183 and the Foch.  The JgE-100 would be that way too if it weren't such utter dogshit in every other area, making it unplayed.

 

Now, the 183 and the 100 aren't overperorming in a balance way (the Foch is, no question), but they crap up gameplay the same way arty did, especially the 183.  If making a move means exposing yourself to 1000+ damage, no one moves because taking one of those hits ruins your game.  TDs in general don't need nerfing, but some of them DO need a redesign.  Mega-alpha is flat-out bad for the game even if it's not imbalanced.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The only problem with TDs (some of them) is the game-breaking alpha. That has always been the root of the arty-hate: people hate getting their game wrecked by a single shot. The act that it was from an unseen enemy across the map only made it worse. I think the line is somewhere around 700 damage. That's a big hit for the TD to get off, but it won't completely ruin someone's game if they poke once in the wrong place. No one really hates the 268 or the E3/4, the only ones that are problematic are the 183 and the Foch. The JgE-100 would be that way too if it weren't such utter dogshit in every other area, making it unplayed.

Now, the 183 and the 100 aren't overperorming in a balance way (the Foch is, no question), but they crap up gameplay the same way arty did, especially the 183. If making a move means exposing yourself to 1000+ damage, no one moves because taking one of those hits ruins your game. TDs in general don't need nerfing, but some of them DO need a redesign. Mega-alpha is flat-out bad for the game even if it's not imbalanced.

I agree large alpha guns have an effect but its more of a fear factor than anything else. TD's don't crap up gameplay IMO because players who are more skilled than your average pubbie generally don't peekaboom with TD's the same way pubbies do and therefore don't have the same "OMG such OP tanks! NERFPLS"reaction. There is generally a counter to their position from retreating so as attack from a different angle to simply taking the hit for a rush on the TD. All the TD's have a disadvantage over other tanks so people just need to learn to play to their weaknesses, not strengths.
Link to post
Share on other sites

 They haven't figured that that big barrel will hurt them if they get in front of it, so they keep feeding themselves to TDs and then they cry because they hit so hard.

 

You just described the Echelon of FAIL perfectly.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The art nerf made TDs seem amazing for a little bit, but now with the arty number returning to normal I think things will be ok. TDs are probably the best defined tanks for their role. They are strong but I do not believe a nerf is too needed.  I personally still smell something fishy about the new camo, and believe perhaps a small camo nerf for tds would be more than enough, 

Link to post
Share on other sites

People will always find something about the game that's "broken", when, really, the only thing that's broken is the automatic "I win" button.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Once Garbad starts the march toward a goal, he's relentless. His arty campaign lasted 2ys+. http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/49723-show-me-the-last-time-your-tank-did-this-to-an-opponent/page__st__160__pid__776341#entry776341 , this is evident by the acknowledgment of it in this reply.

 

Some say that he's influential in bringing about the arty changes. I maintain that it's not the turd in the room that gains attention but the stink it creates. This is where he excels. Creating attention to the campaign by whatever means necessary, good or bad attention is irrelevant. The way the attention is achieved is irrelevant as long as those who disagree with you are put down solidly and indiscriminately - noob or unicum be damned.

 

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=search&andor_type=&sid=c1c6b8c046b16b2d0f1bb47f6371046d&search_author=Garbad&search_date_start=01.%20January%202010%2019:00&search_date_end=01.%20August%202013%2019:00&search_app_filters[forums][sortKey]=date&search_content=both&search_app_filters[forums][sortKey]=date&search_app_filters[forums][noPreview]=0&search_app_filters[forums][pCount]=&search_app_filters[forums][pViews]=&search_app_filters[forums][sortDir]=0&search_term=REMOVE+ARTY+FROM+THE+GAME&search_app=forums&st=0#top 

 

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=search&andor_type=&sid=c2f1a9d1b89e5aef45361adfbc0327f9&search_author=Garbad&search_date_start=01.%20January%202010%2019:03&search_date_end=01.%20August%202013%2019:03&search_app_filters[forums][sortKey]=date&search_content=both&search_app_filters[forums][sortKey]=date&search_app_filters[forums][noPreview]=0&search_app_filters[forums][pCount]=&search_app_filters[forums][pViews]=&search_app_filters[forums][sortDir]=0&search_term=arty&search_app=forums&st=0#top

 

2yrs+ of stink, it got attention. Even SerB acknowledged the next stink would be about TD's.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a bit irritated that everyone's ignoring the bigger balance issue: clan wars.  If TDs were so overpowered, you'd see people mass them in clan wars like people mass heavies, but they are not.  If excess win rate is the issue, that's what matchmaking weight is for.  Lower the MM weight of tier 10 heavies and mediums, and raise the MM weight of tier 10 TDs.  Boom, problem solved.

 

And unicums will always find a way to dominate in pubs, and trying to stop a platoon of 3 unicum TDs from pubstomping will probably worsen the balance of the game elsewhere.

Link to post
Share on other sites

IMO arty was the natural enemy of TDs. And it is working like in nature. You wipe out the predator, another comes up to take his place.

 

Arty was the natural enemy of everything. I believe the main boost in TD population came more from the dispersion buff than arty nerf. People were sicked of their 20 second loaded shell flying wildly and miss - not as big of a problem for other tanks with more steady DPM.

 

Heavies benefited the most from arty nerf, with more map open to them to maneuver and fight with combination of their turret. Medium loss out slightly, gaining much room to work with and maneuver/flank, but loss the lolairstrike on things they spot.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree large alpha guns have an effect but its more of a fear factor than anything else. TD's don't crap up gameplay IMO because players who are more skilled than your average pubbie generally don't peekaboom with TD's the same way pubbies do and therefore don't have the same "OMG such OP tanks! NERFPLS"reaction. There is generally a counter to their position from retreating so as attack from a different angle to simply taking the hit for a rush on the TD. All the TD's have a disadvantage over other tanks so people just need to learn to play to their weaknesses, not strengths.

I admit the fear factor is a big part of TDs. For example last night I was platooning tier 9 with rrw and Altorax. On cliff, rrw in his T30, his game crashed while he was sitting at the bottom of the hill to with the lighthouse, his gun facing towards the donught. While he was trying to restart the game (which wouldnt work 3 times) an enemy WZ-120 was popping out from the donught onto our side, he could of just come round and popped any of us three, but the fact that rrw's AFK T30 was sitting there with its gun pointing to him held him there for a full 5 minutes. Thats just the scare factor from these TDs.
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...