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andepans

Am I missing something about USN DD high tiers?

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USN DDs were the last ship line I tried because I had read they were not very powerful, but I instantly fell in love with their knife-fight style and am really enjoying the t5 Nicholas. No other ships have the thrill of high speed gun duels at close range amidst smoke and rocks and (friendly) torpedoes incoming from every angle. However, when I look through the tech tree, the t5 Nicholas and its successors seem fairly identical.

 

For example, compared to the tier 9 Fletcher: Using identical 5" guns, Fletcher has ~10% more DPM (Nicholas 4x1 @ 15 RPM = 60 RPM / Fletcher 5x1 @ 13.3 RPM = 66.5 RPM), but Nicholas is harder to spot (6.7km to 7.4km) and is faster (37.5kts to 36.9kts.) Fletcher has slightly better AA on paper but planes also become more numerous and tougher to kill at higher tiers so I'm not sure which is stronger here. Fletcher seems to make up its 4 tiers of lost DPM with really powerful torpedoes (2x5 @19k dmg compared to Nicholas' 4x3 @11k dmg) but they only travel 1kt faster and if the added range is powerful enough for 4 tiers of stagnation then I probably will just give up. Or try the IJN DDs again, who seem to have a massive advantage in the long-range torpedo game at every tier.

 

I am very disappointed in the prospects for advancing up the USN DD line and am wondering if I am missing some hidden stat or aspect of high tier games that suddenly makes any of the high tier DDs an upgrade from the Nicholas. I tried a few searches on the Warships section here without finding anything, so sorry if this has already been covered. I would have expected USN DDs to be popular with Tanks players because it seems the most "active" of the ship lines. What have other players tried for the quick and bloody close-range duels?

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Fletcher has quintuple torp launchers, and it makes one hell of a dogfighting DD (combined with 10km range torpedoes). Also with next patch, it'll get cruiser AA ability.

But really, it's just a gateway ship into a pretty epic tier 10 DD (Gearing). Much like how the pre-nerf Foch compared to the pre-nerf(s) Foch 155.

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Fletcher has quintuple torp launchers, and it makes one hell of a dogfighting DD (combined with 10km range torpedoes). Also with next patch, it'll get cruiser AA ability.

What makes it better at dogfighting than the tier 5? On paper it seems fatter, slower, and 11k or 19k, one torpedo will kill any DD you've already been shooting at. So the torpedo alpha really seems to only be an advantage against cruisers with a lot of HP. Probably ought to avoid those in the first place. Besides all that Nicholas gets more torps (12>10) that reload quicker. I understand there is value in having long range torpedoes but I'm just not interested in spinning in circles behind a smoke screen for 20 minutes hoping my torpedoes hit something. 
 

Are all of the DDs getting the AA ability? If it is only the higher tiers that might be some reason to keep grinding I suppose.

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That's partly why I gave up on the US DD line in beta. They get no better (in some cases even worse) throughout basically the entire line. You're playing virtually identical ships with slightly increasing hitpoint pools until T10.

Now that I think about it, that's a problem with WoWS in general =/

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Disclaimer: My highest tier DDs are the Grem, Sims, Nicholas and Mutsuki.

Short answer, I don't know what you're getting.

Long answer: I'm in a pretty similar boat. I enjoy the playstyle. But I can also see that it doesn't appear to improve dramatically.

That said, the Sims is a much, much nastier proposition than the Nicholas. It can shoot at targets while completely invisible. It's gun track significantly faster. It's torps are much more brutal (important against big BBs. The bigger torps are just keeping track with bigger HP pools). I assume a lot of the gains are in shell weight, krupp factor and the like.

Overall, the problem with the line has very little to do with the platforms – I'm sure the Nicholas would mostly cope with 7 as well as the Sims or Mahan. The problem is that American DDs suddenly have to deal with much, much bigger maps. And because their role is that of "Fleet Destroyer" – which needs to be able to kill other destroyers and (soon) help out against air targets – they feel like sad cruisers.

 

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That's partly why I gave up on the US DD line in beta. They get no better (in some cases even worse) throughout basically the entire line. You're playing virtually identical ships with slightly increasing hitpoint pools until T10.

Now that I think about it, that's a problem with WoWS in general =/

There are certain lines that suffer badly from that (US CAs and DDs in particular) but that isn't insurmountable, and WG at least seem to acknowledge that there's a problem there. The JP BB line is what more lines should look like: Dreadnought, Battlecruiser, Fast Battleship, Dreadnought, Super-Dreadnought, Battlecruiser, Wut, Super-Heavy Battleship. 

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There are certain lines that suffer badly from that (US CAs and DDs in particular) but that isn't insurmountable, and WG at least seem to acknowledge that there's a problem there. The JP BB line is what more lines should look like: Dreadnought, Battlecruiser, Fast Battleship, Dreadnought, Super-Dreadnought, Battlecruiser, Wut, Super-Heavy Battleship. 

US BB line is also pretty good

1st gen dreadnought, South Carolina

2nd gen dreadnought, Wyoming

1st gen Super dreadnought, New York

2nd gen Super dreadnought, New Mexico

the Colorado (feels like pre-dreadnought)

1st modern fast BB, North Carolina

2nd gen modern fast BB, Iowa

Montana which is a mix of fast BB with the pew pew of the New Mex with 16inch guns and all the AA

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The tier 6 and 7 USN DDs are just terrible. The Benson however is very very good. Sure the torps are slow but you finally get good range and decent dmg plus they get spotted very close and are hard to dodge.

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The tier 6 and 7 USN DDs are just terrible. The Benson however is very very good. Sure the torps are slow but you finally get good range and decent dmg plus they get spotted very close and are hard to dodge.

That's also the tier that nets you the camouflage upgrade.

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With the IJN DD line it's not much different, you get upgrades until Tier 5 Minekaze, and from there it goes down again, with torpedo load times and detection range increasing, compensated by slightly better main battery which is still useless.

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shimakaze's main guns are actually fairly decent IIRC.  low arc and semi-decent RoF makes them decent for taking out other DD's, though using them blows your stealth.

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Played through T10 US DD's is beta.  The T9 DD was better than T10. Torps had longer range. US DD's are basically ultra light cruisers. The torps do more damage, and turret turns get a bit quicker, but you really don't change much going up the tiers. Play is the same. Same for IJN torps get better and much longer range. (20 km, but that is as dangerous to your team as the enemy) BB's, and CV's change the most going up tiers. CA's stop changing from T7-T9, but De Moins is crazy good at T10. IJN from T7 to T9 is pretty much the same ship. The T10 Zao is crazy good to. The major difference at higher tiers is you have to learn to hit stuff at very long range with guns. 

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Played through T10 US DD's is beta.  The T9 DD was better than T10. Torps had longer range. 

Fletcher has 10km torps, gearing has 16.5. The Fletcher's reload faster and do more damage but they definitely don't have more range.

You could make an argument that the torpedoes on the Fletcher are better since spamming long range torps isn't likely to net much success, but the Gearing still has nearly twice the overall shell output with its guns.

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This seems to be the conundrum with both DD lines.  You don't really get better ships with higher tiers, just different.  Sure you get more hit points and AA, but you're also way less maneuverable and sneaky. DDs seem like they're always going to be the odd man out, since you don't have all the rocks and concealment to hide behind like you do in Light Tanks.  

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At least the US DDs get decent fire power on their guns which is extremely important high tier since torps are next to worthless. Also Its not as bad to only get 10km torps at T9+ since the only torps you will hit are 7km max because at that tier everyone will dodge your torps and after 7km people will just slow down or shift a hair to the right and it throws all your torps out off target. 

I just bought my Fubuki last night but have yet to play it. After the Minekaze its has been hell for me to play this game. Since the Japs are known for their torps they get shit guns that cant defend against it self to make up for the extra range. 

 

But either US or Japs, high tier DDs (except Both T9,10s) are utter garbage and really show you how imbalanced this game is and how much BB and CV are the only thing worth playing. Plus no one ever talks about DD balance and I dont know why

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At high tiers all DD's are very map dependant. If there are a lot of islands you can dodge around them and maybe pop someone with a torp. Also, if red team DD lays smoke and ships are behind the smoke screen, fire torps into it. They won't see them coming. DD's need a buff, but all the new players complained about getting torped, so DD's were over nerfed.

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At least the US DDs get decent fire power on their guns which is extremely important high tier since torps are next to worthless. Also Its not as bad to only get 10km torps at T9+ since the only torps you will hit are 7km max because at that tier everyone will dodge your torps and after 7km people will just slow down or shift a hair to the right and it throws all your torps out off target. 

I just bought my Fubuki last night but have yet to play it. After the Minekaze its has been hell for me to play this game. Since the Japs are known for their torps they get shit guns that cant defend against it self to make up for the extra range. 

 

But either US or Japs, high tier DDs (except Both T9,10s) are utter garbage and really show you how imbalanced this game is and how much BB and CV are the only thing worth playing. Plus no one ever talks about DD balance and I dont know why

You would be suprised how hard is is to dodge tier 8+ USN DDs torps as they are much slower then the IJN but also get spotted much closer

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I had a Farragut, and just plain had to get rid of it, the damned thing took me from 48% wins and improving to 44% and tanking. Like CV's, I'd like to learn to play DD's, but unlike CV's I find myself not improving in DD's, but rather getting rapidly worse. I feel compelled to get in and do real damage before too long in the battle, and the DD's simply get trashed. Every single hit I take disables the engine and the rudder, leading to the ship being a blazing wreck soon to be extinguished by sinking.

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DD's are like light tanks in wot. You just have to use terrain to avoid getting hit and dodge incoming shells. You basically try to cap in suck a way where you have an escape route. Then you sort of lurk around and look for a hole to get to the CV's or torp a BB when he is shooting at someone else. Not easy to do. For every 120k damage game I have, there is are 2 or 3  400 damage games where I get killed early. Not an easy class to play.

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DD's are like light tanks in wot. You just have to use terrain to avoid getting hit and dodge incoming shells. You basically try to cap in suck a way where you have an escape route. Then you sort of lurk around and look for a hole to get to the CV's or torp a BB when he is shooting at someone else. Not easy to do. For every 120k damage game I have, there is are 2 or 3  400 damage games where I get killed early. Not an easy class to play.

Not my idea of fun, not going to play that way. That's just miserable. Just another reason wargaming doesn't earn any of my money. They do not know how to balance game pieces, nor do they know how to balance battles.

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Well I don;t like CV play. If you don't like DDs, then play one of the other classes. I think all the classes need some balancing, but in any MMO type game, balance is a moving target. All games are constantly making changes as the meta changes.

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