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Redesigning World Of Tanks

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I like yours Pity :) but personally I feel World of Tanks is almost a complete game IMO so as a dev I would do the following.

-Reduce RNG to +/- 10%.  RNG is needed in the game.  It keeps it interesting.  However, too much will cause problems and hinder competitive/top tier/end game play.  War Gaming should know about the RNG problem, they have a fucking youtube series dedicated to it.

-Fix map design.  Corridor maps that favor heavy tanks is annoying as fuck, pubbies will load up their e5s now and large fucking TDs and sit there with a "come at me bro" look.  Better map design will counter this and maybe get some fucking team play as well, AS WELL AS benefitting all classes in the game.

-Arty.  Instead of removing it and losing the dedicated 75% customer base and their moooolah, I would keep the class in the game.  Instead, make it more like AW.  Arty cannot fuck your tank up in one shot effectively removing your influence in a match.  Low alpha damage period, 200 max for tier 10 and reduced by tier BUT reload is significantly decreased.  15 seconds max, 13 minimum for tier 10, avoiding FV304 rapid fire shit/perma-track bullshit.  Include a shot warning as well as that is helpful, and other types of rounds (smoke rounds for instance).  "BUT SHIFTY, you're still alive at 20 HP, so what you just lost the other 1980 HP from one arty shot? You're not dead yet?!"  Well good pubbie, I shall explain.  No HP means you can't trade shots, and are reduced to 3rd line play.  Lack of any modules (assuming you don't run large kits) or crew can reduce effectiveness to WIN MATCHES (the whole point of the game) as well.  WG managed to fuck the mechanic up significantly, these changes still make them effective in a fight like in AW (especially in close matches).

-XVM.  Banned.  Illegal from now on.  It results in chasing a number that no one in real life will give a fuck about.  It ruins fun in the game, turning it into a chore to some to "maintain stats" (honestly wtf).  It sponsors taunting and insults online, we're just trying to fucking chill when we play, people will get salty as that is inevitable but no game is more toxic due to 1 fucking mod than World of Tanks.  XVM you're gone.

-Mods.  Will be required for submission to War Gaming devs for approval, by which if approved will be put up on the website. 1 place to get mods, and they will be checked to see if game breaking or not sponsored by the company.  Most mods requiring XVM will be removed due to this, but mainly graphical skins, modified battle results (sexy battles results oo la la), shit like that will be approved quickly.  For mods such as autoaim plus, a damage panel and hitlog, those mods probably won't be approved but instead incorporated in the game with credit going out to the creators.

-Fog of War in pub matches.  XVM may be gone, but you can still tell who is good based on clan tags.  To protect the upper echelon of the player base from focus in pub matches (people who ALSO just want to chill out and blow shit up).  Tank names can only be seen, no names, no tags.

-Add the option to remove gun shake effect after shooting.  It's annoying IMO.

My changes hope you don't mind Pity :) , writing this during my accounting class so sorry for any grammar, spelling, or random words that might be related to accounting and "credits and debits"

 

 

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5 hours ago, Trobs said:

Skill'd MM was put on hold during early access


Are you sure? From what I have read, they select 30 players and distribute them around according to experience, winrate, tank, upgrades etc.

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2 hours ago, Embiggener said:

- The linear damage drop-off is a bit too arbitrary, I think.  

If you're going to go that route, you might as well drop off the damage for kinetic stuff with something that approximates real velocity drop-off.   A cool benefit to that is that projectiles with different ballistic coefficients will drop off differently, i.e, 105mm APDS vs 152mm watermelons.

- Giving, say, APCR reduced damage is also very arbitrary and it's easy to get yourself into trouble there.   However there shouldn't be anything wrong with including bursting charges on normal AP shells in figuring out how much damage to do.

Both your damage dropoff (particularly variations between tank classes) and shell damage variations conflict directly with your other attempts to introduce realism or real-ish mechanics.   Too "game-ey", in other words.  It's a common mistake to pick something arbitrary - the old rock paper scissors sort of thing - and then try to build a complex system around it.

Easiest way to solve some of these design issues is to have a solid understanding of real tanks and tank combat, ID which parts would and would not be fun in a match setting, a fudge a few things to encourage the former and reduce or eliminate the latter.

I don't agree with your statement, it would be the same with the current wot, they claim historicity and some sort of realism, but the game is arcade. No question asked. What you describe is definetly not a design issue, since the design of the game mechanics shall not be realistic at all cost. Pity tried to take a part of realism and built a GAME design around it. It has to feel realistic, not to be realistic. It's different... 

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3 hours ago, Embiggener said:

- The linear damage drop-off is a bit too arbitrary, I think.  

If you're going to go that route, you might as well drop off the damage for kinetic stuff with something that approximates real velocity drop-off.   A cool benefit to that is that projectiles with different ballistic coefficients will drop off differently, i.e, 105mm APDS vs 152mm watermelons.

- Giving, say, APCR reduced damage is also very arbitrary and it's easy to get yourself into trouble there.   However there shouldn't be anything wrong with including bursting charges on normal AP shells in figuring out how much damage to do.

Both your damage dropoff (particularly variations between tank classes) and shell damage variations conflict directly with your other attempts to introduce realism or real-ish mechanics.   Too "game-ey", in other words.  It's a common mistake to pick something arbitrary - the old rock paper scissors sort of thing - and then try to build a complex system around it.

Easiest way to solve some of these design issues is to have a solid understanding of real tanks and tank combat, ID which parts would and would not be fun in a match setting, a fudge a few things to encourage the former and reduce or eliminate the latter.

Don't get me wrong, everything I introduced was purely focused around buffing the effects of player skill, I had no intention of making the game "realistic". I chose linear because that was something we could work with as a start, it has a maximum over a set distance followed by the drop and finally reaching a minimum at a set distance. Just seems an easy method.

Giving APCR reduced damage is purely for balance, not realism, if a round has high penetration then we need to trade-off with something else like damage.

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7 hours ago, TheMarine0341 said:

Biggest changes to improve the game, IMO

Limit arty to 2 per team
Reduce penetration of arty HE shells by 50%, increase splash radius by 10%. Will still potentially 1-shot very thin skinned tanks, but less chance for better armored tanks. Better area denial, and wont get shit on by more than 2 arty at a time
Damage dealt RNG reduced to 10% (400 alpha now swings between 360 and 440). Exception is arty
Penetration RNG reduced to 15% (200 pen now swings between 170 and 230). Exception is Arty
"Premium" rounds reduced cost to "normal" shell prices, but at a cost of reduction of 10% damage over the standard rounds (excluding HESH). Unless, premium round has less penetration, then an increase in damage done is fine.
In the case of Big HESH: Reduce alpha of 183/4005 to 1500, increase normalization significantly for all HESH/HE rounds

Change that stupid HE mechanics so splash will no more kill crew or destroy internal modules. Also unification of bushes's camo would be nice. 

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I have terrible twitch reflexes.  your game would be unplayable to me.  

other people would have no trouble owning me, while I would struggle to perform.  It is not a BAD game, but it is a very different game, and one that I wouldn't enjoy. 

It also nerfs the hell out of light tanks, because people could swing their hulls and gun at full speed and reliably hit shots that are currently low percentage.  

---

I'd decrease the power differential between the tiers.  I describe a very simple way to handle that in THIS thread.
The point would be to keep the variety that +-2 tiers offers, without making bottom tier tanks severely over matched, especially at the low tiers where beginners need to start.

 

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Just now, Cunicularius said:

Just cause it's easier doesn't mean it's better. I'm sure you've autoaimed and lost shots to spaced armor cause the ideal hold isn't center of mass. 

Nah i don't auto aim on spaced armor. Or i haven't for a long long time.

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7 minutes ago, The_direwolf said:

Nah i don't auto aim on spaced armor. Or i haven't for a long long time.

It's usually not something you get to decide. Autoaim on an IS-3 as you're circling him and have the shot go into the belt when you could have aimed a degree lower and been a good deal more likely to've penned. 

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5 hours ago, Shifty_101st said:

-Arty.  Instead of removing it and losing the dedicated 75% customer base and their moooolah, I would keep the class in the game.  Instead, make it more like AW.  Arty cannot fuck your tank up in one shot effectively removing your influence in a match.  Low alpha damage period, 200 max for tier 10 and reduced by tier BUT reload is significantly decreased.  15 seconds max, 13 minimum for tier 10, avoiding FV304 rapid fire shit/perma-track bullshit.  Include a shot warning as well as that is helpful, and other types of rounds (smoke rounds for instance).  "BUT SHIFTY, you're still alive at 20 HP, so what you just lost the other 1980 HP from one arty shot? You're not dead yet?!"  Well good pubbie, I shall explain.  No HP means you can't trade shots, and are reduced to 3rd line play.  Lack of any modules (assuming you don't run large kits) or crew can reduce effectiveness to WIN MATCHES (the whole point of the game) as well.  WG managed to fuck the mechanic up significantly, these changes still make them effective in a fight like in AW (especially in close matches).

 

I know I am opening a can of worms with this arty debate, but allow me to play devil's advocate here.

200 max dmg (if it hits, if it pens) on a tier 10 that shoots maybe every 13 seconds? (Perhaps even with a warning shot?)

Don't get me wrong, I hate arty too but this seems a little excessive. There would be no point to playing artillery if you do less damage than a light tank 2 tiers lower. (And don't get me started on having that damage reduced by tier. Tier 5s will be doing something like 40dmg a shot)

What you would propose would allow someone to essentially ignore the presence of artillery on the battlefield. 200hp in a tier 10 is around 10% of your hp, and the warning shot will only give you more time to hump the nearest rock and completely "out-skill" an entire class of vehicles. (I understand the irony in that statement)

I agree with lower alpha (and perhaps a slight accuracy (but not aimtime) increase to compensate) but you are taking it too far.

How is this for a counter-proposition?

-600dmg max at tier 10, with reload/aimtime around the same they are now (slightly increased accuracy) 

-Instead of a warning shot, make tracers easier to see (specifically in the top-down view arty has) to promote CB. 

-Implement an automatic blurb in chat (ex/ Artillery XXX has fired and hit me for YYYhp).

-Limit arty to no more than 2 per side.

-+/-1MM for arty, allowing for better balancing potential as they see a smaller spread of tanks.

This allows arty to do what I think it does best: break tough tanks in stationary positions (like that hull-down IS7) without blowing them off the face of the earth. The more visible tracers would promote a kind of chess match between artillery that would punish the stationary clicker. The chat blurb would allow for better coordination, especially among skilled players as they could take advantage of artillery's reload once they know it has fired. Limiting the number of artillery will also help with this.

Thoughts?

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1 hour ago, FavreFan4ever said:

I know I am opening a can of worms with this arty debate, but allow me to play devil's advocate here.

200 max dmg (if it hits, if it pens) on a tier 10 that shoots maybe every 13 seconds? (Perhaps even with a warning shot?)

Don't get me wrong, I hate arty too but this seems a little excessive. There would be no point to playing artillery if you do less damage than a light tank 2 tiers lower. (And don't get me started on having that damage reduced by tier. Tier 5s will be doing something like 40dmg a shot)

What you would propose would allow someone to essentially ignore the presence of artillery on the battlefield. 200hp in a tier 10 is around 10% of your hp, and the warning shot will only give you more time to hump the nearest rock and completely "out-skill" an entire class of vehicles. (I understand the irony in that statement)

I agree with lower alpha (and perhaps a slight accuracy (but not aimtime) increase to compensate) but you are taking it too far.

How is this for a counter-proposition?

-600dmg max at tier 10, with reload/aimtime around the same they are now (slightly increased accuracy) 

-Instead of a warning shot, make tracers easier to see (specifically in the top-down view arty has) to promote CB. 

-Implement an automatic blurb in chat (ex/ Artillery XXX has fired and hit me for YYYhp).

-Limit arty to no more than 2 per side.

-+/-1MM for arty, allowing for better balancing potential as they see a smaller spread of tanks.

This allows arty to do what I think it does best: break tough tanks in stationary positions (like that hull-down IS7) without blowing them off the face of the earth. The more visible tracers would promote a kind of chess match between artillery that would punish the stationary clicker. The chat blurb would allow for better coordination, especially among skilled players as they could take advantage of artillery's reload once they know it has fired. Limiting the number of artillery will also help with this.

Thoughts?

No, 200-250 max is what I feel is right.  This is based on more commonly seen tier 10s such as the IS7, and E5 for example having around 2k hitpoints.  Hitting for 10% of that tanks HP (or less) about every 13 seconds will still be a threat on the field.  The point of the severe cut off in damage is to promote actual play and to prevent camping.  You see a LOT of camping and people not pushing flanks because they are scared shitless of getting one-shot by arty.  I myself am guilty of this at times.  In AW for example though, arty is still a threat, but not a "OMG IF I MOVE OUT I'M GOING TO GET FUCKED".  Plus, this still does not limit their ability to affect the outcome of a match towards the end (in a tight 4v4 situation).  

As for the rest of your proposals.

-No for the easier to see tracers.  They're nice to have and I would totally put them in as a player, but in a dev's perspective, adding better tracers would over-nerf arty as everyone would know where it is, the CB will be instant, and the class will be more than likely removed before a battle reaches the 2 min mark.  That's bad for profits if 75% of your base leaves the game because they keep dying early due to CB.

-Chat blurb would cancer up the chat (every 10 seconds at times, bleah the spam would be real).  We don't need to know arty hit you or fired.  People should have to be paying attention to that themselves (both as a GOOD player and as a dev's perspective IMO).

-Limiting arty per side will increase que times IMO and will start forcing lower tiered arty into higher tier matches.  Effectively making it a solo pub only tank.  Cap remains at 5 (as much as I as a player hate to say that).

-+/- 1 MM might cause more problems that good IMO, even in combination with the limiter.

You say this is to do what arty does best.  Break tough positions.  This (no offense) is a orange/yellow player mentality that has been preached by armchair generals far and wide.  Yes that's the original intention of arty on the battlefield.  But this is a video game, not real life, otherwise if it WAS realistic we would be playing WT, not this HP based game.  Map design counters the campers (and I am a pleb for not explaining it better :( ).  I believe @Garbad preached this as a solution LONG ago and personally I think this is great.  Take OLD OLD El Halluf.  You know, heavy tank corner where you had to fight an uphill fight? Yeah shit map design as if you tried to FLANK that corner you would get fucked by the TDs just sitting their in their spawns waiting for some poor idiot to do so.  New El Halluf is still shit in that area as the EXACT FUCKING THING remains but War Gaming got it closer.  Fjords in clan wars, south spawn? Yeah, shit map design there too.  The infamous turtle area.  IDK what can be done to such a cancerous map IMO other than to remove it.  

Good thoughts, but I'm pretty solid on my position in this area.  Not likely to convince me changing it unfortunately, but nice attempt and well argued I will say! :D 

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Reduce RNG to 10 or 15%, blap arty out of the game and make it a call in a la War Thunder. Significantly low single-shell damage, wide area, slow to hit and broadcasted to the area. Easy to avoid, forces most people out of spots, won't fuck you up too much. And no surprise one shots.

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2 hours ago, Shifty_101st said:

No, 200-250 max is what I feel is right.  This is based on more commonly seen tier 10s such as the IS7, and E5 for example having around 2k hitpoints.  Hitting for 10% of that tanks HP (or less) about every 13 seconds will still be a threat on the field.  The point of the severe cut off in damage is to promote actual play and to prevent camping.  You see a LOT of camping and people not pushing flanks because they are scared shitless of getting one-shot by arty.  I myself am guilty of this at times.  In AW for example though, arty is still a threat, but not a "OMG IF I MOVE OUT I'M GOING TO GET FUCKED".  Plus, this still does not limit their ability to affect the outcome of a match towards the end (in a tight 4v4 situation).  

As for the rest of your proposals.

-No for the easier to see tracers.  They're nice to have and I would totally put them in as a player, but in a dev's perspective, adding better tracers would over-nerf arty as everyone would know where it is, the CB will be instant, and the class will be more than likely removed before a battle reaches the 2 min mark.  That's bad for profits if 75% of your base leaves the game because they keep dying early due to CB.

-Chat blurb would cancer up the chat (every 10 seconds at times, bleah the spam would be real).  We don't need to know arty hit you or fired.  People should have to be paying attention to that themselves (both as a GOOD player and as a dev's perspective IMO).

-Limiting arty per side will increase que times IMO and will start forcing lower tiered arty into higher tier matches.  Effectively making it a solo pub only tank.  Cap remains at 5 (as much as I as a player hate to say that).

-+/- 1 MM might cause more problems that good IMO, even in combination with the limiter.

You say this is to do what arty does best.  Break tough positions.  This (no offense) is a orange/yellow player mentality that has been preached by armchair generals far and wide.  Yes that's the original intention of arty on the battlefield.  But this is a video game, not real life, otherwise if it WAS realistic we would be playing WT, not this HP based game.  Map design counters the campers (and I am a pleb for not explaining it better :( ).  I believe @Garbad preached this as a solution LONG ago and personally I think this is great.  Take OLD OLD El Halluf.  You know, heavy tank corner where you had to fight an uphill fight? Yeah shit map design as if you tried to FLANK that corner you would get fucked by the TDs just sitting their in their spawns waiting for some poor idiot to do so.  New El Halluf is still shit in that area as the EXACT FUCKING THING remains but War Gaming got it closer.  Fjords in clan wars, south spawn? Yeah, shit map design there too.  The infamous turtle area.  IDK what can be done to such a cancerous map IMO other than to remove it.  

Good thoughts, but I'm pretty solid on my position in this area.  Not likely to convince me changing it unfortunately, but nice attempt and well argued I will say! :D 

Thank you for not just dismissing me as a terribad and actually taking the time to respond.

I still think 200dmg is a tad too low, especially for vehicles that aim in for an ice age and are hit-or-miss in terms of accuracy.I just don't think that they would be able to influence a match consistently. 

With your proposal (200dmg/shot) would there be any changes to aimtime/accuracy? Also to clarify would it be a 200dmg HE shell?

 

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No matter what anyone says, arty will never be balanced. No matter what you do, someone is going to be able to slap you from across the map every time you try to make a move, and there's nothing you can do about it. No one will ever be able balance that. 

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26 minutes ago, FavreFan4ever said:

Thank you for not just dismissing me as a terribad and actually taking the time to respond.

I still think 200dmg is a tad too low, especially for vehicles that aim in for an ice age and are hit-or-miss in terms of accuracy.I just don't think that they would be able to influence a match consistently. 

With your proposal (200dmg/shot) would there be any changes to aimtime/accuracy? Also to clarify would it be a 200dmg HE shell?

 

lol no problem, everyone here is trying to play their best and this is NOT the official forums where I tell people they suck so I can get upvoted :P 

Yeah, completely forgot to mention, aim time is buffed, dispersion is buffed.  Basically it would turn the long aim time, RNG based mechanic into something that is more reliable, and something that can consistently do damage and support a team.  On top of that I should mention since I didn't before, HE mechanics will need to be changed FOR ARTILLERY ONLY.  Otherwise each shot you take will break a gun, kill a crew man. That should not be happening.  It will still be able to do things like that but it will be much much much more rare.

Might as well add in one more thing I would change.  Premium time.  As it stands, you can barely scrape by profit wise (2k-4k a match in tier 10) in profit if you go full balls to the wall, fire gold, lose a shit ton of HP, and use kits.  Otherwise you still lose money, even with prem time.  Change up the economy a bit so you make more money overall.  Not enough to reduce the amount of credit packages being bought in the store but enough to make grinding credits a thing of the past.

14 minutes ago, Cunicularius said:

No matter what anyone says, arty will never be balanced. No matter what you do, someone is going to be able to slap you from across the map every time you try to make a move, and there's nothing you can do about it. No one will ever be able balance that. 

Coming from player to player who fucking hates arty with a passion, yes that is true and I know this.  This is from a "if I were a dev" point of view where the objective is to create a good game AND to make money off of the game still.  Thus creating a COMPLETE product.

If it was from a player perspective these replies would not be here.  Instead it would be "FUCK ARTY UR GONE U FUCKING BITCH MECHANIC"

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