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Mesrith

AP damage mass hysteria

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Gamemodels3d shows the stock Cleveland hull to be bugged, the armor changes significantly when you select the elite hull, though not sure if either of them have the correct armor. 

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2 minutes ago, SeaAdmiral said:

Gamemodels3d shows the stock Cleveland hull to be bugged, the armor changes significantly when you select the elite hull, though not sure if either of them have the correct armor. 

interesting.

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From Wikipedia (I know terrible source):

Armor:
  • Belt: 3.25–5 in (83–127 mm)
  • Deck: 2 in (51 mm)
  • Turrets: 1.5–6 in (38–152 mm)
  • Barbettes: 6 in (150 mm)
  • Conning tower: 2.25–5 in (57–127 mm

The elite hull certainly has 127 belt, 51 deck, 152 barrette, 127 conning tower. It has 165 turret face though. Other internet sources cite 152mm for barbettes and 6.5 inch turret faces, so it seems to be in order. Shipcomrade (which mines Wargaming's API) has stated that the extremities of the Cleveland should be 16, and that the minimum armor should be 13, corresponding to the elite hull. It seems like the elite hull is correct. I can test the stock hull in a co-op vs ai game if you'd like. 

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4 minutes ago, SeaAdmiral said:

It seems like the elite hull is correct. I can test the stock hull in a co-op vs ai game if you'd like. 

It seems that AI in Co-op no longer necessarily have stock configurations anymore. I think their configuration is now randomized to some extent. 

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I took my Cleveland in stock config out for a spin in Coop. Everything that hit the center caused damage, HE or AP, no matter the angle. Completely unable to bounce anything that hits the center. Sailed up next to an enemy New Mex to test, and I still got hurt badly. Doubt the bug is entirely favorable.

Played 2 games, game 1 had a stock enemy Cleveland AI, game 2 had one stock one elite (check prebattle by mouseover and compare ratings). Citadeled the enemy stock Cleveland at ~9km range. Game two faced the nonstock one, failed to pen reliably at 8.4km with him slightly angled, could pen at 6km. Still bounces some of the shots. Again, my HP bar melted pretty quickly. 

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Just picked up my Kongo grind where I left it 5 days ago...and litterally ...WTF??!! I played 7 games so far, all losses....and in over half I did less than 20k dmg. No citadels and I feel that over half my shots now bounces. I don't want to feed any hysteria, but something changed. For the worse...

Also encountered a Ghost-Cleveland just now. Gave me his broadside and I put a full salvo into him....3k dmg!!! This isn't funny anymore.

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I have come to the conclusion that wargaming does not understand history.  Because something *did* happen a few times in history, they are translating it to *must* happen each and every shot.

For example:  Because a shot could possibly knock out all boilers and make a ship completely dead, all shots will do that instead of knocking one boiler offline and lowering response time.

Another:  Because there are cases where a BB shot went right through the hull of a DD and did no major damage, all BB shots will go through and do no major damage (never mind the DDs that got annihilated by single shots).

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Great video from the EU forums:

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/36006-dispersion-penetration-in-051/page__st__260__pid__668526#entry668526

It basically confirms what many of us have noticed over the past few days.

  • Citadel hits against cruisers at a close broadside are rare now.
  • Citadel hits against cruisers at an angle or at a further distance are still possible, or even more likely than before.

Something's going on with the ricochet angles change.  If you shoot at a close broadside, your shell is nearly always getting pushed out the other side of the ship for an overpen.  If you shoot at an angle, there's more ship to travel through, increasing the chance that the shell will get deflected down into the citadel or at least do a 33% standard pen.  If you shoot at greater distances, your shell's downward angle could carry into the citadel instead of passing through.  Battleship vs. battleship seems much less affected by the changes.

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They nerfed AP rly hard, don't know if it was intentional or not, encountered multiple slow broadside Atagos and Pensacolas in my Torpitz today in 8-15km range, only 1 citadel hit, usual salvo count is about 4-6 k for 5+ hits, that would be 2-4 citadels before..

Also hits on BBs are for much lower dmg then usual..

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1 hour ago, Mesrith said:

Great video from the EU forums:

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/36006-dispersion-penetration-in-051/page__st__260__pid__668526#entry668526

It basically confirms what many of us have noticed over the past few days.

  • Citadel hits against cruisers at a close broadside are rare now.
  • Citadel hits against cruisers at an angle or at a further distance are still possible, or even more likely than before.

Possible relevant to something I noticed reading the shell stats. Most battleship shells detonate 0.033 seconds after they're triggered, which at maximum velocity is usually around 25m. The Myoko has a beam of only 20m.

To get a citadel (or even 0.33x AP damage), you'd need the shell to be not only triggered by the armour, but slow down sufficiently that it detonates inside the ship, or bounce off the armour on the far side of the ship.

It looks like they've adjusted the mechanics so that AP shells retain much more penetration after passing through a layer of armour, so BB shells are passing straight through un-angled cruiser citadels before detonating.

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13 hours ago, SeaAdmiral said:

A collection of rumors I've heard so far from reddit and the forums (as with all rumors, a lot of them may be false and in fact some of them blatantly contradict each other):

1. Low armored targets seem to be bouncing more

2. Some HE was nerfed, possibly from penetrating less (small reddit thread, though one of the advocates for this is a well known youtuber)

3. Citadels, especially against broadside targets, seem harder to get

4. Cruiser AP seems to punch harder against battleships

5. Some people report still being able to citadel targets

6. Dispersion was nerfed (this one I have a really hard time believing)

7. Longer ranged shots still seem to citadel

8. Shots against angled cruisers no longer pen as easily

9. Shots against angled cruisers still citadel

10. Now, from Mesrith's quote, all angled armor was buff, especially thin internal armored plates

 

There is a lot of hysteria at the moment, but it is physically impossible for each of these to be correct due to some of them having contradictory natures. I'll try to come up with a theory after getting more in game experience myself. There seems to be a lack of data for Battleship v Battleship and Cruiser v Cruiser in general, as most people are focusing and data collecting on Battleships v Cruisers. 

I have two hunches/hypotheses, but I lack in game experience at the moment to back it up

1. Perhaps all pen was increased, but internal armor was made much stronger, resulting in things penetrating outer layers more often but stopping short of citadels. This would explain cruiser AP vs BB getting better, but it would not explain why some salvos against broadside cruisers are not doing 33% pen damage. Looking at gamemodels3d, this would also not explain very well changes vs ships with little internal armor, for instance the Cleveland which has nothing above the armored deck. 

2. Perhaps all pen is better vs flatter armor, and a bit worse vs angled armor, and shells deflect less (important for shell flight after impact) upon encountering armor. This could be done with normalization + overmatch mechanics changes. This could explain why some shells are simply overpenetrating cruisers unless they're angled. Angled armor would mean more thickness to slow the shell/encourage it to drop down and smack the citadel and more ship length for the shell to travel through (and either plunge down or detonate), but also a bit more chance to bounce. I only played 2 battleship games yesterday, but my citadels (vs an Omaha and an Iowa in my Kongo and Tirpitz respectively) were vs somewhat angled targets, shallow enough to pen but not shallow enough to overpen. This theory might have some holes in it, but it seems best fit to my current understanding of the status quo.

From my own testing:

1.  Low armor bouncing - Perhaps at angles, but not straight on.  I have, however, seen 0 damage hits on low armor broadside targets, with no bounce animation.

2.  HE nerf - Not enough evidence to support or deny.

3.  Broadside citadels - BBs as targets unaffected.  Cruisers as targets are much more likely to be overpenned for 10% shell damage, even if the citadel is hit.  Nearly impossible to citadel a broadside cruiser with BB guns.  Exception being more heavily armored cruisers.

4.  Better cruiser AP - I've seen no evidence of this.

5.  Citadels reported - Not enough detail to comment.

6.  Dispersion nerfed - Every patch in every game ever made spawns a comment about some randomly determined factor being worse.  Ignore it.

7.  Long shot citadels - Yes.  Plunging fire has more ship to go through, leading to fewer overpens.  Might also be due to penetration fall off.

8.  Essentially the same as #1.

9.  Angled citadels - Yes.  Just like #7, an angled target has more armor, which may prevent over penetration.

10.  Angled armor buff - Possibly.  The theory does fit some observed actions.

 

Your hypotheses: 

1.  AP Buff + internal armor buff - Does not stand up to experimentation.  I've fired a few hundred shots into relatively weak sided BBs from cruisers, and have seen no more damage than expected.  Furthermore, you state yourself that we're not seeing the 33% damage from partial pens in BB vs CA tests.

2.  Better vs flat, worse vs angles - Something has definitely happened between shell impact and final damage determination.  I think, as stated earlier, they've changed how angles affect the trajectory of shots.  I personally suspect they either nerfed normalization, or made shell trajectory post impact more static.  

 

My principal theory at this point is this:  They now treat citadel areas themselves as 0 armor.  In the past, I suspect any shot that got through the external/internal armor and reached the boilers/mags/skulls of workers in citadel areas, the shell would automatically fuse and do its max damage.  Now, these areas are being treated as empty space, and fusing only happens if the shell does not leave through the other side.

 

In both cruiser vs cruiser and BB vs BB testing, I've had no difficulty at all scoring citadels.  CA vs BB seems unaffected.  BB vs CA...  basically cannot citadel a broadside cruiser.  

 

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I'm fine with this change btw. It was very tame to play as a CA and have a pubbie use his RNG shotgun, miss every shot but one and magically deal 9k damage. Also whoever did the video of him aiming for citadel hits on those Myokos was aiming really fucking low.

13 minutes ago, Deusmortis said:

in both cruiser vs cruiser and BB vs BB testing, I've had no difficulty at all scoring citadels.  CA vs BB seems unaffected.  BB vs CA...  basically cannot citadel a broadside cruiser.  

At any range? I find this impossible to believe and will need some actual evidence on the matter. Something could have gone wrong with the patch but overpenetration at short range could very well be a thing, considering most cruisers don't have a lot of actual armor protecting their citadels from BB shotguns anyhow.

Same way as I'm able to citadel American Battleships in my low caliber ships from the front if they're angled, as I hit their "all-or-nothing" nothing armored part and the shot goes right through the ship and towards the citadels.

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3 minutes ago, AntonioHandsome said:

I'm fine with this change btw. It was very tame to play as a CA and have a pubbie use his RNG shotgun, miss every shot but one and magically deal 9k damage. Also whoever did the video of him aiming for citadel hits on those Myokos was aiming really fucking low.

At any range? I find this impossible to believe and will need some actual evidence on the matter. Something could have gone wrong with the patch but overpenetration at short range could very well be a thing, considering most cruisers don't have a lot of actual armor protecting their citadels from BB shotguns anyhow.

No, close range.  Distant shots could still score citadels.

And I agree, I don't mind the cruiser survivability buff.  Just bugs me that you have to make an otherwise dumb mistake (show your broadside) to be effective.

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3 minutes ago, Deusmortis said:

No, close range.  Distant shots could still score citadels.

And I agree, I don't mind the cruiser survivability buff.  Just bugs me that you have to make an otherwise dumb mistake (show your broadside) to be effective.

Taking 9k+ damage on penetrations alone (possibly more if these BB pubbies would aim for the superstructure) at close range from a single volley is nothing to laugh at.

This doesn't unfuck the lame, high-tier meta where everyone camps because battleships are sniping everyone on sight though, but actually made it worse if pubbie-hearsay is to be believed. No cruiser is ever going to get within range of a battleship anyhow, so what's the point.

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I have been playing my BB's today and I wrecked CA's shooting HE. I killed 3 of them at medium range with a single broadside from my Nagato. Similar results from Warspite. Just switch to HE against CA's. It looks like intentional or not they have nerfed spike damage. I personally think that is a good thing. I wish they had it in the patch notes. I think you can citadel a CA at long range with plunging fire, but at mid to close range HE for the win.

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Maybe someone else can confirm in training room but what seems to be weird is that this "bug/buff" only seem to affect cruiser class but not other classes. I would have expect that cruiser to CV conversions like the independence would be affected as well but it still feels the same as before. 

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14 minutes ago, ncc81701 said:

Maybe someone else can confirm in training room but what seems to be weird is that this "bug/buff" only seem to affect cruiser class but not other classes. I would have expect that cruiser to CV conversions like the independence would be affected as well but it still feels the same as before. 

The Cleveland (& Independence) should both be largely unaffected because they barely have any citadel above the waterline. Most citadels from BBs would either be plunging or through the water. In both cases the shell speed would be relatively low on impact, and so the round should detonate before passing through the hull.

It's quite likely that shooting HE at Clevelands is optimal anyway, and always was. There's just too little citadel to be worth shooting AP at.

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45 minutes ago, ncc81701 said:

Maybe someone else can confirm in training room but what seems to be weird is that this "bug/buff" only seem to affect cruiser class but not other classes. I would have expect that cruiser to CV conversions like the independence would be affected as well but it still feels the same as before. 

Just ran Tirpitz vs CVs.  At close range, broadside angle, every single hit was an overpen.  Did not matter where the shot was placed.   Could citadel the boilers if I applied some angle.   

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I hope this is unintentional.

Because it is not intuitive at all and, frankly, retarded.

If they want to nerf BBs vs Cruisers, then please find something else and less stupid :)

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2 hours ago, Deusmortis said:

Just ran Tirpitz vs CVs.  At close range, broadside angle, every single hit was an overpen.  Did not matter where the shot was placed.   Could citadel the boilers if I applied some angle.   

What carriers are you testing it against?

I can cit Lexingtons and Shokakus at close range broadside with Iowa, but it's not reliable at all.  Even at long range it's not reliable.

I can't cit the Ranger at all unless if it's from front or back, though if you just shoot HE at it somewhere in the back, it'll cit pretty reliably.

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