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FlorbFnarb

Shit's blowing up in Paris; our EU peeps all okay?

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1 hour ago, Paaranoja said:

...

Nope, whats wrong is that they were there to overthrow anyone who wouldn't slide with capitalism/west. Thats not the same as totalitarianism.

...

Technically... overthrowing any regime you don't agree with is pretty much totalitarism ;)

 

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On 03/12/2015, 14:39:53, Sidus_Preclarum said:

Yeah, good stuff, but this part :

 

is God awfull. Since, you know, it denies the existence of planes to start with.

Both sides are lying, but only if we assume Russia uses spherical planes suspended in a vacuum.

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5 hours ago, Golem501 said:

Technically... overthrowing any regime you don't agree with is pretty much totalitarism ;)

 

No.

*edit* well, unless you mean that as an image; the world being considered as a society of states. Still, not a very good one, imho.

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7 hours ago, Paaranoja said:

Sorry, i had to stop grinning about what you said.

 

It doesnt, however i fail to see why would you overthrow a government chosen by people just because it doesn't fit your ideology? Holier than thou?

 

Also since when is guerrilla warfare and insurgency a way to change government in a democratic state? I thought its done via elections.

 

Nope, whats wrong is that they were there to overthrow anyone who wouldn't slide with capitalism/west. Thats not the same as totalitarianism.

We are talking about stay behind forces that stayed AFTER the dissolution of USSR, making sure that the any future government is not socialist/communist.

 

Please tell me how do minorities feel in a democracy? Im a white male in Europen white christian country and im missing some basic rights and freedoms and im not even a minority.

 

And since we are on topic on chikeniong out of questions, you avoidet this one:

Maybe forum users from south America, Africa, Asia, Europe can voice their opinions on NATO puppet governments.. Im sure some opinions would be quite negative. Do you recommend those players organize a coupe and get rid of the puppets?

Again with the moral equivalence.  Communist governments are inherently totalitarian.  The stay-behind forces were stood up during the Cold War to be a thorn in the side of Communist puppet governments...or even Communist governments that were actually voted in, rare as that is.

Democracy is not some unique virtue that pays for all other sins.  If the majority votes in a Communist government that strips the people of their rights to free speech, religion, association, bearing arms, property, assembly, petition, due process, and trial by jury, does everybody else owe them some sort of deference solely by virtue of having been democratically elected?  Hitler arrived in power via legitimate democratic and constitutional means, and when he suspended elections it was, at the time, with the assent of the majority of the people in Germany, although they came to change their minds during the war.  Now, how do you think Jews would have reacted to the idea that democracy legitimates all actions taken by the government and all attempts to overthrow any democratic government are inherently illegitimate?

I'm not saying you take this idea to the nth degree, but you are attempting to deligitimize stay-behind forces on the hypothetical of a democratically elected communist government.

Aleo, how are we just discussing the stay-behind forces' status following the dissolution of the Soviet Union?  They date from a time during the Cold War.

5 hours ago, Golem501 said:

Technically... overthrowing any regime you don't agree with is pretty much totalitarism ;)

 

Totalitarianism in a nutshell, by Mussolini, the man who coined the term "totalitarianism": "Everything within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state."  This is why Fascism and Nazism and Communism are all totalitarian: all sectors of life are subject to state direction.  Limited government and totalitarian government are incompatible opposites; limited government confines itself to a few aspects of life, wielding prescribed powers, and is a tool of society, while totalitarian government seeks to govern all aspects of life, takes whatever powers it finds pragmatically necessary, and seeks to shape society.

None of which means every sector of society has to be formally expropriated by the government.  When asked if he planned to nationalize the industries, Hitler said (I'm paraphrasing here): "Why?  I've already nationalized the industrialists."  The same applies to religion in many states; even if the church is not an official arm of the government, the state still seeks to exercise control over religion.

Overthrowing an unfree government or the government of an enemy is not totalitarianism.  Totalitarianism is a philosophy of government, where the state is meant to control the totality of life; nothing is out of bounds.

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You missed the point of my post. 

Freedoms of minorities,  actually for all citizens,  are  taken away in both capitalism and comunism just in a different way. Democracy is a joke because people are not even capable of making the right decisions for their own good on a daily basis and yet the same people decide what is "good" for the entire country. 

The number of smart and capable people  is overshadowed by the mediocrity of general populus whoos voting preferences are decided on, basically, adds and comercials. 

 

Here in Croatia, an parliamentary election was held just few weeks ago. On one side you could choose crooks who robbed the country on the other side you could choose croocks who are robbing it right now. They fucking tied! And now a third option (that got around 15%) is planning to force them to cooperate and make a unified government. Tldr: no matter for whom you voted the end result will be the same shit all over again. Democracy failed. 

 

My point is to show you, Florb, how wrong you can be about the "right ideology" and the proof is our reality. 

Thy sytem of democratic elections is flawed, we are just hypnotised by the elaborate "panem et circenses " to keep us compliant and docile, and funny thing is, thats very much like the totalitarian comunism you loathe so much with more bullshit and less political imprisonment. 

 

Anyway, about those NATO puppet governments? 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Paaranoja said:

Anyway, about those NATO puppet governments?

No such thing as NATO puppet governments, there are only legit governments and EVIL COMMUNISTS.

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1 hour ago, FlorbFnarb said:

even Communist governments that were actually voted in, rare as that is.

It happened in multiple municipalities in the netherlands, in 1930 or so the communist community council got overruled by a commisar from the central government. The exact same happened in 1950 (1930 in Beerta and 1951 in finsterwolde)

Overthrowing an unfree government or the government of an enemy is not totalitarianism.  Totalitarianism is a philosophy of government, where the state is meant to control the totality of life; nothing is out of bounds.

Tell that too all the Latin American governments that got dumped by the US / CIA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions

the entire ``freedom`` and ``democracy`` crap is only to have an excuse to serve the big multinationals

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2 hours ago, Paaranoja said:

You missed the point of my post. 

Freedoms of minorities,  actually for all citizens,  are  taken away in both capitalism and comunism just in a different way. Democracy is a joke because people are not even capable of making the right decisions for their own good on a daily basis and yet the same people decide what is "good" for the entire country. 

The number of smart and capable people  is overshadowed by the mediocrity of general populus whoos voting preferences are decided on, basically, adds and comercials. 

 

Here in Croatia, an parliamentary election was held just few weeks ago. On one side you could choose crooks who robbed the country on the other side you could choose croocks who are robbing it right now. They fucking tied! And now a third option (that got around 15%) is planning to force them to cooperate and make a unified government. Tldr: no matter for whom you voted the end result will be the same shit all over again. Democracy failed. 

 

My point is to show you, Florb, how wrong you can be about the "right ideology" and the proof is our reality. 

Thy sytem of democratic elections is flawed, we are just hypnotised by the elaborate "panem et circenses " to keep us compliant and docile, and funny thing is, thats very much like the totalitarian comunism you loathe so much with more bullshit and less political imprisonment. 

 

Anyway, about those NATO puppet governments? 

 

 

Capitalist societies are free; communist societies are totalitarian by nature.  There is no moral equivalence there.  Your complaints about democracy are only solvable by limited government; restrict the sphere where the majority rules, and outside of that the individual does as they please.

Are these "puppet governments" of NATO that you refer to free countries?  Again, there is no moral equivalence between NATO and the Soviet Union.  One was a powerful and aggressive totalitarian state, the other an alliance formed to block it.

 

1 hour ago, GehakteMolen said:

It happened in multiple municipalities in the netherlands, in 1930 or so the communist community council got overruled by a commisar from the central government. The exact same happened in 1950 (1930 in Beerta and 1951 in finsterwolde)

Tell that too all the Latin American governments that got dumped by the US / CIA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions

the entire ``freedom`` and ``democracy`` crap is only to have an excuse to serve the big multinationals

Oh goody.  Weird conspiracy theory crap.  It sounds like the same crap that spread after WW1 that the war was a plot cooked up by arms manufacturers to crreate a market for their product.

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5 minutes ago, FlorbFnarb said:

Oh goody.  Weird conspiracy theory crap.  It sounds like the same crap that spread after WW1 that the war was a plot cooked up by arms manufacturers to crreate a market for their product.

wut? the communist municipalties got ousted by the government, those ``government commisars`` are used 3 times past 100 years and that was twice to overrule a local election: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regeringscommissaris

And the CIA certainly supported all sorts of scum, that is also no secret.

And ofc Iran, the most blatant case of ``freedom`` and ``democracy`` meaning jackshit, but also colombia, panama, venezuela, Cuba, US was (or is) involved in almost all countries in central and south america, and almost never to in a positive way (they somehow always support the far right / semi-fascist / dictatorship like people)

This has nothing to do with conspiracys, these are real events which happened and probably still happen right at this moment.... 

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5 minutes ago, GehakteMolen said:

wut? the communist municipalties got ousted by the government, those ``government commisars`` are used 3 times past 100 years and that was twice to overrule a local election: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regeringscommissaris

And the CIA certainly supported all sorts of scum, that is also no secret.

And ofc Iran, the most blatant case of ``freedom`` and ``democracy`` meaning jackshit, but also colombia, panama, venezuela, Cuba, US was (or is) involved in almost all countries in central and south america, and almost never to in a positive way (they somehow always support the far right / semi-fascist / dictatorship like people)

This has nothing to do with conspiracys, these are real events which happened and probably still happen right at this moment.... 

Seriously?  You think it's bad that the CIA tried to get the Cuban government booted?  They're a totalitarian communist dictatorship that suppresses religion, free speech, and dissent.  What is it with people on the left and their fucking boner for totalitarian governments?

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29 minutes ago, GehakteMolen said:

wut? the communist municipalties got ousted by the government, those ``government commisars`` are used 3 times past 100 years and that was twice to overrule a local election: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regeringscommissaris

And the CIA certainly supported all sorts of scum, that is also no secret.

And ofc Iran, the most blatant case of ``freedom`` and ``democracy`` meaning jackshit, but also colombia, panama, venezuela, Cuba, US was (or is) involved in almost all countries in central and south america, and almost never to in a positive way (they somehow always support the far right / semi-fascist / dictatorship like people)

This has nothing to do with conspiracys, these are real events which happened and probably still happen right at this moment.... 

The conspiracy comment was about you saying that freedom and democracy are a farce and an excuse to "serve the multinationals".

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8 hours ago, FlorbFnarb said:

The conspiracy comment was about you saying that freedom and democracy are a farce and an excuse to "serve the multinationals".

That is not even a theory now, it is a known fact.

 

MI0002127113.jpg?partner=allrovi.com

 

...

Doesn’t matter what you see
Or into it what you read
You can do it your own way
If it’s done just how I say

Independence limited
Freedom of choice
Choice is made for you, my friend
Freedom of speech
Speech is words that they will bend
Freedom with their exception

...

 

the song is appropriately named Eye of Beholder.

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11 hours ago, FlorbFnarb said:

The conspiracy comment was about you saying that freedom and democracy are a farce and an excuse to "serve the multinationals".

But are they? The banana wars are named like that for a reason, to allow the US Fruit Company easy money, it was comparable to european colonialism at that point

Iran was also to help out big busniness and at a time european colonies wheree mostly gone. Iran (wanted too) privatised their oil industry, and as reward the US backed the sjah in a new coup, they afterwards backed him untill he got put aside in the 1979 revolution

Same for Chile, they wanted to nationalize their copper industry and the US simply backed opponents, this led to Pinochet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

US foreign policy is in a part based on protecting business interest, this is done is many ways, either by force, like in south america or by supporting dictatorships, like in the middle east (Saudi Arabia)

ps: ``containing communism`` was ofc also an important part, but it got certainly (ab)used for other reasons....

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9 hours ago, Paaranoja said:

That is not even a theory now, it is a known fact.

 

MI0002127113.jpg?partner=allrovi.com

 

...

Doesn’t matter what you see
Or into it what you read
You can do it your own way
If it’s done just how I say

Independence limited
Freedom of choice
Choice is made for you, my friend
Freedom of speech
Speech is words that they will bend
Freedom with their exception

...

 

the song is appropriately named Eye of Beholder.

o_o

 

Please tell me you're either joking or fifteen.

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8 minutes ago, Paaranoja said:

Joking about what exactly?

"Known fact", and you're quoting Metallica lyrics?

I mean, come on, at least make me work a little.

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4 minutes ago, FlorbFnarb said:

"Known fact", and you're quoting Metallica lyrics?

I mean, come on, at least make me work a little.

Metallica is just for amusement. As for the fact part, nope, not a joke, but that shouldn't be anything new. The veil of lies and fals intentions has fallen long time ago 

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10 minutes ago, Paaranoja said:

Metallica is just for amusement. As for the fact part, nope, not a joke, but that shouldn't be anything new. The veil of lies and fals intentions has fallen long time ago 

:look:

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4 minutes ago, FlorbFnarb said:

:look:

Sorry, once information got so easily obtainable ti became impossible to hide the real intentions.

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3 hours ago, Paaranoja said:

Metallica is just for amusement. As for the fact part, nope, not a joke, but that shouldn't be anything new. The veil of lies and fals intentions has fallen long time ago 

Only for those who chose to see beyond the lies. There are still plenty of people spouting the lies and plenty of people who believe them.

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5 hours ago, Paaranoja said:

Sorry, once information got so easily obtainable ti became impossible to hide the real intentions.

 

1 hour ago, General_Fault said:

Only for those who chose to see beyond the lies. There are still plenty of people spouting the lies and plenty of people who believe them.

<facepalm>

 

yEXrkiD.jpg

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11 hours ago, FlorbFnarb said:

 

<facepalm>

 

yEXrkiD.jpg

How come Africa has no WMD, you know where they kill people all the time for decades now?

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33 minutes ago, Paaranoja said:

How come Africa has no WMD, you know where they kill people all the time for decades now?

That's completely different. Everyone's ok with free range organic artisanal killing.

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