Jump to content
FlorbFnarb

Shit's blowing up in Paris; our EU peeps all okay?

Recommended Posts

I just don't know how we can solve problems like this.

It's not a war against another country that can be defeated in a battle.

They are fanatics, so reasoning is out of the question as well.

They'll die anyway and hope to take as much of us with them as possible, because of their delusions.

And they can easily blend in the regular populace, it's not like they are wearing uniforms or anything. It's not as if we can exterminate the entire muslim population to get the percentage extremists...

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, RutgerS said:

I just don't know how we can solve problems like this.

It's not a war against another country that can be defeated in a battle.

They are fanatics, so reasoning is out of the question as well.

They'll die anyway and hope to take as much of us with them as possible, because of their delusions.

And they can easily blend in the regular populace, it's not like they are wearing uniforms or anything. It's not as if we can exterminate the entire muslim population to get the percentage extremists...

Ideologies can be defeated by defeating their strongest exponent and revealing them as weak; people tend to be attracted to strength.  This is how Nazism and Fascism were defeated - by defeating Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy.  Communism was defeated during the Cold War where the Soviet Union was unable to keep pace with liberal democracies economically; today China is only Communist in name, having abandoned total ownership of the means of production by the state, and all other exponents of Communism are weak states like Cuba and North Korea.

Islamism is no different.  Like all totalitarian ideologies it is dependent upon its image of strength to attract new followers, and so defeating its strongest exponent in the field reveals their weakness, destroying the ideology's image of strength and removing its attraction to potential new converts.

Smash Al Qaeda and especially ISIS and Islamism will inspire less terrorists.  We don't see any Nazis, Fascists or Communists threatening world domination and conducting attacks on western countries nowadays, because their proponents were shown to be weak.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Cunicularius said:

And the first 10,000 mostly military age, male, Syrian refugees have arrived by barge in New Orleans. 

#CulturalDiversity #ReligonOfPeace

I feel for you poor guys.

We get 7000 EVERY DAY!

 

That come because your great country causes unrest across the world. Those 10K people is just a sad excuse instead of taking real responsibility.

I am out of here now, before I say more.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, RutgerS said:

I just don't know how we can solve problems like this.

It's not a war against another country that can be defeated in a battle.

They are fanatics, so reasoning is out of the question as well.

They'll die anyway and hope to take as much of us with them as possible, because of their delusions.

And they can easily blend in the regular populace, it's not like they are wearing uniforms or anything. It's not as if we can exterminate the entire muslim population to get the percentage extremists...

It was the same (ish) deal with the "Brigate Rosse" in Italy, 40 years ago. This kind of battles are the most difficult to fight, since the enemy is almost impossible to find. The Brigate Rosse experience is different from this, but it is just one example of the difficulty there is to fight terrorism in all it's shapes and forms.

Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, How_Terrible said:

I don't remember that working out all that well for you guys.

As guy above me stated, you need to be stronger than their strongest exponent, and he is right.

ISIS is teaching their followers that it is OK to kill those who are different than them, while here governments are trying to teach people that it is not OK to kill those who are different than you. 8)

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've locked the topic for now. I'm sorry to do this because I skimmed over and from what I could tell, you guys have been fairly well behaved, however this is one fucked up area of current world politics where strong feelings can brew up, particularly around events such as the current happenings in Paris. I merely foresee a moderation nightmare ahead if the discussion veers even slightly off course.

@PumpkinSpiceNo

Solono may decide to unlock it if he feel's like it can go ahead, since he is generally the more experienced one in such discussions. (I also need to sleep :P )

Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep this thread politically and idiocy neutral, we've all had time to let our emotions on this matter mellow a bit and I expect that to be the standard with this thread. You post stupid shit, no matter which direction it comes from, it's an automatic RO without warning.

Keep it sane.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Am I the only one asking how it got this bad for these acts of terrorism to happen?

What could be prosperous and wealthy part of the world is now so destabilized that 90% of its populations flees and other 10% blames the west and wants to bomb us.

Don't get me wrong, I do not approve of innocent deaths and acts of terrorism and I feel sympathy with those affected by it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This has been shared on facebook a lot. It's a post by someone who was in the concert hall when the attacks happened. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153885227089893

Quote

Isobel Bowdery

12226948_10153885227089893_2143731031632

you never think it will happen to you. It was just a friday night at a rock show. the atmosphere was so happy and everyone was dancing and smiling. and then when the men came through the front entrance and began the shooting, we naiively believed it was all part of the show. It wasn't just a terrorist attack, it was a massacre. Dozens of people were shot right infront of me. Pools of blood filled the floor. Cries of grown men who held their girlfriends dead bodies pierced the small music venue. Futures demolished, families heartbroken. in an instant. Shocked and alone, I pretended to be dead for over an hour, lying among people who could see their loved ones motionless.. Holding my breath, trying to not move, not cry - not giving those men the fear they longed to see. I was incredibly lucky to survive. But so many didn't. The people who had been there for the exact same reasons as I - to have a fun friday night were innocent. This world is cruel. And acts like this are suppose to highlight the depravity of humans and the images of those men circuling us like vultures will haunt me for the rest of my life. The way they meticoulsy aimed at shot people around the standing area i was in the centre of without any consideration for human life. It didn't feel real. i expected any moment for someone to say it was just a nightmare. But being a survivor of this horror lets me able to shed light on the heroes. To the man who reassured me and put his life on line to try and cover my brain whilst i whimpered, to the couple whose last words of love kept me believing the good in the world, to the police who succeded in rescuing hundreds of people, to the complete strangers who picked me up from the road and consoled me during the 45 minutes I truly believed the boy i loved was dead, to the injured man who i had mistaken for him and then on my recognition that he was not Amaury, held me and told me everything was going to be fine despite being all alone and scared himself, to the woman who opened her doors to the survivors, to the friend who offered me shelter and went out to buy new clothes so i wouldnt have to wear this blood stained top, to all of you who have sent caring messages of support - you make me believe this world has the potential to be better. to never let this happen again. but most of this is to the 80 people who were murdered inside that venue, who weren't as lucky, who didnt get to wake up today and to all the pain that their friends and families are going through. I am so sorry. There's nothing that will fix the pain. I feel priviledged to be there for their last breaths. And truly beliving that I would join them, I promise that their last thoughts were not on the animals who caused all this. It was thinking of the people they loved. As i lay down in the blood of strangers and waiting for my bullet to end my mere 22 years, I envisioned every face that I have ever loved and whispered I love you. over and over again. reflecting on the highlights of my life. Wishing that those i love knew just how much, wishing that they knew that no matter what happened to me, to keep belieivng in the good in people. to not let those men win. Last night, the lives of many were forever changed and it is up to us to be better people. to live lives that the innocent victims of this tragedy dreamt about but sadly will now never be able to fulfil. RIP angels. You will never be forgotten.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, no_name_cro said:

Am I the only one asking how it got this bad for these acts of terrorism to happen?

What could be prosperous and wealthy part of the world is now so destabilized that 90% of its populations flees and other 10% blames the west and wants to bomb us.

Don't get me wrong, I do not approve of innocent deaths and acts of terrorism and I feel sympathy with those affected by it.

We have this problem in part because that part of the world started regressing around the 13th century or so.

We have this problem because freedom of religion and separation of church and state are alien concepts in that part of the world, and always have been.

We have this problem because the Middle East has been culturally moribund for centuries, with a few exceptions, and there is a great deal of blame-shifting and cultural envy in the area.

We have this problem because it's a hotbed of antisemitic fantasies, and always has been.

We have this problem because too many in the west lack the cultural confidence to do more than condemn murder, and no stomach for a long fight against a widespread enemy.  This will never be finished by toppling this dictator or JDAMing that terrorist.  Like I said above, the only possible path is to keep crushing every single major proponent of this Islamist/jihadi crap.  Show them to be weak in the eyes of the world, and they will lose all cultural draw and be unable to propagate their ideology, exactly as the west defeated Nazism, Fascism, Japanese Imperialism, and Communism.  Nobody promotes those except for weak states like North Korea and Cuba.

Islam is not going anywhere, but this jihadist crap needs to be crushed.  People have to learn that they have to leave others the fuck alone. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, FlorbFnarb said:

The only possible path is to keep crushing every single major proponent of this Islamist/jihadi crap.  Show them to be weak in the eyes of the world, and they will lose all cultural draw and be unable to propagate their ideology, exactly as the west defeated Nazism, Fascism, Japanese Imperialism, and Communism.

Islam is not going anywhere, but this jihadist crap needs to be crushed.  People have to learn that they have to leave others the fuck alone. 

Fascism was defeated because Nazi Germany started a conventional war they couldn't win, same is true for Japanese Imperialism and Communism was defeated by its own awful economic practices.

However, radicalised religious terrorists have so far managed to resist decades of invasions by armed forces far superior to their own, the Soviets tried and failed, then the Americans and their allies tried and are still failing, parts of the Middle East have been in near-continuous conflict with the West and the East for decades, it's all well and good to make hyperbolic statements about how we ought to utterly crush these people once and for all, but so far it seems no-one actually has a way to do just that.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This isn't an army, who all conveniently mark all their equipment and uniforms so you can tell them apart. You can't 'utterly crush' an opponent you can't find, who can turn a corner and instantly become one of the people you are trying to save.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The point where it got really bad was when Gee Dubbya got his revenge trip against Saddam. Even ignoring that the US put him in power to begin with and were besties with him until the late 80s, Saddam was all about Iraq as a socially stable country. Yes, he was a cunt about it after the Iran-Iraq and Gulf War but it mostly worked (the US betraying the Kurds and others during this time was also not a great way to gain allies) and the biggest problem was one that was reasonably contained (Al Qaeda was just not all that popular in the wider scope, just hyped due to actually doing something for once).

There is literally nothing the West can do about this shit as it is because the entire area is filled with people who've been backstabbed countless times. At best, we can try to install some proper anti-islamist dictators or spend a couple of generations trying to un-fuck those places. It's not like the average dirt farmer feels great love for these assholes because, you know, they're assholes to muslims in particular but what can you do about it? Take some cash to feed your dirt poor family for a while in exchange for your life or have your family raped and murdered because you didn't sign up, that's usually how it goes.

Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Storm said:

Fascism was defeated because Nazi Germany started a conventional war they couldn't win, same is true for Japanese Imperialism and Communism was defeated by its own awful economic practices.

However, radicalised religious terrorists have so far managed to resist decades of invasions by armed forces far superior to their own, the Soviets tried and failed, then the Americans and their allies tried and are still failing, parts of the Middle East have been in near-continuous conflict with the West and the East for decades, it's all well and good to make hyperbolic statements about how we ought to utterly crush these people once and for all, but so far it seems no-one actually has a way to do just that.

The problem isn't in the crushjng of the jihadists; they've been crushed many times.  The key is to stick around and keep them down.  We didn't leave Germany and Japan two years after we beat them - we're still in both countries.  We decisively pounded both into the ground and stuck around to ensure neither Nazism, nor Fascism, nor Japanese pseudo-Bushido-Imperialism cropped up again.

With Communism there was no decisive defeat of the enemy on the battlefield, we simply contested their moves around the globe, putting them to an expense they couldn't afford.

With the Islamists, the blowing them up isn't the end.  Stick around, stomp uprisings before they become large, show the strength of the west and the weakness of the Islamists - and you end their appeal.  They gain recruits because they look strong, they look like winners to people in that area and to some western Muslims.

Remember bin Laden's analysis of the effect of perceived strength?  "Show people a strong horse and a weak horse, and they naturally prefer the strong horse."  He was basically correct.  Strength has an appeal; if you want to beat an ideology and keep it beat, you have to show it and its adherents to be weak, and end their appeal permanently.

It's worked before and it can work again.

12 minutes ago, Zinn said:

The point where it got really bad was when Gee Dubbya got his revenge trip against Saddam. Even ignoring that the US put him in power to begin with and were besties with him until the late 80s, Saddam was all about Iraq as a socially stable country. Yes, he was a cunt about it after the Iran-Iraq and Gulf War but it mostly worked (the US betraying the Kurds and others during this time was also not a great way to gain allies) and the biggest problem was one that was reasonably contained (Al Qaeda was just not all that popular in the wider scope, just hyped due to actually doing something for once).

There is literally nothing the West can do about this shit as it is because the entire area is filled with people who've been backstabbed countless times. At best, we can try to install some proper anti-islamist dictators or spend a couple of generations trying to un-fuck those places. It's not like the average dirt farmer feels great love for these assholes because, you know, they're assholes to muslims in particular but what can you do about it? Take some cash to feed your dirt poor family for a while in exchange for your life or have your family raped and murdered because you didn't sign up, that's usually how it goes.

Let's leave the partisan political references aside, what say?

As for ISIS and others supposedly being these untraceable ninjas that just pop smoke and disappear, it doesn't matter.  History question: read up on Tet and the Viet Cong, and what it did to them.

Also; ISIS is not a terrorist group that can simply disappear, . They hold land, and their claims to being the legitimate caliphate are dependent upon them holding land.  To control land, they have to counter any intrusion.  That means they have to engage in a conventional battle.  Hell, Al Qaeda fought conventional battles in Afghanistan.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Remember what the term "ISIS" stands for: Islamic State in Iraq and Syria.  They aren't just a different entity than Al Qaeda, they're a different kind of entity.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's almost like you didn't read what I wrote. Nowhere did I call them unassailable ninjas, I have zero clue where that comes from, and the "partisan" thing is historical fact, especially if you weren't born in 1995 or later so you'd remember the US and Iraq being friends (where do you even think the tinfoil "muh oil" conspiracy comes from? It's Iraq you used to get it from back in the day). The population of Afghanistan fucking hated the shit out of Al Qaeda, just like the average person in Syria and Iraq isn't a particularly big fan of ISIS (you may have noticed something about refugees lately). These people do not ask you if you want to volunteer for their army, they make you do it and it's called pressing someone into service. As popular as hating random muslims is and as much as I want religious extremists vaporized, they do spend 99% of their time murdering the shit out of the local population, not us, and especially so if you dare not being the right kind of muslim as well (think Spanish Inquisition, only worse and with modern weapons).

If you think the solution to problems related to Islam, or rather the power hungry "religious" nuts who profit from it, is to park a gigantic coalition of Christian armies on what people consider holy ground, I think you're a bit off. Another big problem in these countries is that they're still fairly tribal in nature, meaning that you don't just need to control the government, you need to control 200 village elders who don't give a shit about you or why you're here. It's not his problem a terrorist attack happened in your country, he has 500 km2 of harsh land with no infrastructure to manage and you need to present a better solution than ISIS, who probably have locals in their ranks. He probably also has to betray his neighbor's son to do what you want him to do, along with risking the lives of himself and the entire population of the area, so it better be a damn good offer. Literally nobody likes foreign soldiers on their land, especially from a radically different culture who don't speak their language. The only way to combat this shit is to change the culture and that can't be done with boots on the ground in modern times. There simply aren't enough soldiers in any army to cover that amount of land and since the entire place is plastered in AKs and explosives, it is really damn hard to get rid of the bad apples since everyone has weapons. It's why I think a local dictator would be the best solution to the problem, since he'd know what's up and can pressure the various tribes into doing what they're told because his army is bigger, badder and better funded than ISIS/Al Qaeda/whoever.

The whole "show of force" shenanigans you refer to are misguided because what you want is enough people who follow "you" (that is, someone you control) willingly to make the change you desire. Even the Romans did that shit by incorporating all kinds of heathen gods and religious elements into their own and so did the Christians. Why do you think Jesus was suddenly born a couple of days after Winter Solstice, something pretty much every civilization on Earth celebrates in some way? Why do you think the names of the weekdays are what they are? You're not going to find a whole lot of Thor in the bible, you know, but they let it slide. Hell, even though it's a Christian holiday now, with the same shenanigans you have, we still technically celebrate Yule in Denmark rather than "Christmas".

You're also 100% wrong on the cause of Nazism being defeated and it's something you can easily look up in any book on the subject. The reason Nazism even became a thing in the first place was because the major powers after WWI told Germany to go fuck itself, which resulted in the most hilarious inflation of all time, something any person in Europe has heard of as part of basic history lessons. Paying insane reparations to the allies, losing all of their colonies, being blockaded and having massive forced tolls on everything they import sort of makes them dislike you. How hard was the punishment the allies doled out in post-WWI Germany? Well, by November 1923, one US dollar was worth 4,200,000,000,000 marks. Also, Hitler fixed their economy right up (ie. solved their problems), so he seemed like a nice chap and pretty much all of the West liked him, right up until he decided that Ze Vaterland needed an expansion. The all important distinction after WWII was that the Western powers (Britain, France and the US in particular) sat down and decided not to plunder the shit out of the remaining part of Germany again and actually rebuild it. You may have heard of something called The Marshall Plan in passing, 11% of which went to Germany, right? As for the US staying in Germany, that had a whole lot less to do with Nazism 2.0 being a possibility and a whole lot more to do with everything on the east side and beyond being Commie territory. You needed Germany safe, strong and secure so Stalin wouldn't roll all over Europe and your soldiers were not there because you were displaying the awesomeness of democracy (which Germany already had pre-Hitler, he was "voted" in after all) or why capitalism is super duper awesome (you may notice Germany being a pretty solid empire until the end of WWI).

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, FlorbFnarb said:

 

Remember what the term "ISIS" stands for: Islamic State in Iraq and Syria.  They aren't just a different entity than Al Qaeda, they're a different kind of entity.

It's worth noting that referring to them as 'Islamic State' is something we should get out of the habit of doing. Words have power and 'IS' implies an established Caliphate. 

 

I like the idea of using 'Daesh' to describe them: http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/10/09/words-matter-isis-war-use-daesh/V85GYEuasEEJgrUun0dMUP/story.html?event=event25?event=event25

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...