Retrofits stacking - Reload time or alpha increase? How it affects your DPM

[Britzz 500]

Following up on the topic by @_WL:

I wanted to try out a few numbers, trying to better understand how the retrofits stacking works and how it can affect your DPM.

In this post I will try to analyze the DPM, alpha and reload time. I will not talk about the aimtime/accuracy/gunnery increases that your firepower retrofits can give as those are heavily tank dependant and which one you stack will be your own choice, depending on what you want to increase on your tank's performance. The alpha increase and reload time decrease are equal for all those "mixed" retrofits, so I will consider the chrome lining barrel and the augmented breech to represent the DPM effect for both classes of "mixed" retrofits. The analysis is done considering single shot cannons only, as the autoloaders/machineguns area bit more complicated and I need to fully understand the effects of the retrofits yet.

Here is a link to the google docs table I compiled: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1buUTQ53DbBbxhmzSr62Jk9tfZZQEpV7AJ2iyAEMOmYQ/edit?usp=sharing

The first table is just a plain analysis of how the Mk.1-3 advanced thermal sleeve and experimental propellant affect your DPM.
This is done considering the same DPM of 500 (placeholder value) and different alpha dmg and reload times to get a combined stock DPM of 500.
It proves that both the retrofits act as an increase in DPM even with different alphas and reload times. Data can be found in the link above. The calculations for the DMP are made according to the topic by _WL: the reload time is decreased and the alpha is increased as he describes it in his topic.

The important result here is the DMP increase that the different retrofits give:

Experimental propellant DPM				Advanced thermal sleeve DPM
Mk.1	Mk.2	Mk.3		Mk.1	Mk.2	Mk.3
525,00	531,25	537,50		531,91	540,54	549,45
% over thermal sleeve				% over experimental propellant
98,7	98,28125	97,825		101,3171226	101,7488076	102,223358

We can see how the difference in DPM given by the thermal sleeve is definetly minor!
The Mk.3 thermal sleeve gives a 2.2% increase in overall DPM compared to the Mk.3 experimental propellant! This is of course done WITHOUT improving the alpha dmg. In my opinion the DMP increse with the thermal sleeve is not as important as the added raw damage increase you get with the experimental propellant. Bear in mind that these calculations are done with the same stock DPM of 500. We all know by now that alpha is somehow the king, since the times you will be able to fully use your DPM will be less than the ones ou will get a single shot and then retreat/break line of fire. In this matter I can affirm that the experimental propellant is better than the thermal sleeve.

Let's consider stacking:

Analyzing the mk.1 retrofits	% buff	What it affects	Denomination
Thermal sleeve	0,94	Reload speed	TS
Breech	0,9604	Reload speed	B
Experimental propellant	1,05	DMG	EP
Chrome lining barrel	1,033	DMG	CLB

 

Combination	DPM	Alpha	RPM	Reload Time	DPM% increase
Stock	500,00	250,0	2,00	30,00	100,00
TS+EP	558,51	262,5	2,13	28,20	111,70
TS+B	553,85	250,0	2,22	27,08	110,77
EP+CLB	542,33	271,2	2,00	30,00	108,47
EP+B	546,65	262,5	2,08	28,81	109,33
TS+CLB	549,47	258,3	2,13	28,20	109,89
B+CLB	537,80	258,3	2,08	28,81	107,56
TS+B+EP	581,54	262,5	2,22	27,08	116,31
TS+EP+CLB	576,94	271,16	2,13	28,2	115,39

The table gives a good overlook at the situation but a graph will be a bit more exhaustive:

OP italian ovelay on the scrrenie of the graph.  

What we gather is that the DPM increase given by "reload retrofits" is greater than the one given by "alpha retrofits". The % change is not that big though, 2.3% roughly if we compare the conditions with pure reload buffs and pure alpha buffs. Again the alpha buffs will increase your single shot capabilities, which makes them a tiny bit better IMHO.

When we get to the point of combining reload retrofits and alpha retrofits we get a negligible difference between the 2 situations (0.5%). If you choose to stack the retrofits this way you can then select what best suits your case for secondary buff and give the primary buff the best buff for your case (arguiably it will still be the alpha dmg buff for theprimary buff).

The triple stacking is rare, but I think it can be done, againg the results are simillar but here you can "play" a bit more and tune your tank a bit better.

So what we gather from this is that given a DPM (so given a tank!) you will have a very small difference in final DPM increase wether you choose the reload time route or alpha dmg route. This will give IMO a better choice in the DMG retrofits compared to the reload retrofits, considering the fact you will have better single shot capabilities and you will not be "forced" to use the raw RPMs of your gun to get better damage.

Further calculations and considerations can be done according to different reload times and alpha combinations, considering the "time window" you have to fire your gun. This means a reload buff can be better when you have a Xs timeframe to unload your gun: it will give you a better chance to put 2 shots out in that time frame, whereas a damage buff will give you a better damage in the shot you can fire. The discussion can be complicated if you start considering this as well, but I think that my analysis can be a good starting point for further discussions in alpha vs reload buffs

I hope you enjoyed the read and that it wasn't too complicated.

PS: yes I'm bored.

 

[Intumesce 1,695]

So basically, damage retrofits are more or less better than reload retrofits?
Now if only I could bother grinding the T-90 line to get E.P., but until then I'll have to stick to my enhanced shell materials.

[Britzz 500]

9 minutes ago, _WL said:

So basically, damage retrofits are more or less better than reload retrofits?
Now if only I could bother grinding the T-90 line to get E.P., but until then I'll have to stick to my enhanced shell materials.

If you consider the raw DPM increase with the reload retrofits compared to the dmg retrofits, it is minor (2.3%). The latter gives you a better alpha, though! The advantages of better alpha dmg is well known. I would also think that in AW, given the small timeframes you get to fire at enemies since they all have 6th sense, the higher alpha will help you to capitalize on the occasions you get.

The discussion can go on considering the benefits of better reload with different timeframes and different reload times. I plan on doing suchb analysis as well.

[Intumesce 1,695]

It seems that almost all tanks benefit more from increased alpha over decreased reload, especially since like I mentioned in that thread, reload bonuses get worse the more you stack them while alpha is the total opposite.
AFVs benefit from more alpha so they have more salvo damage, with the exception being those with really low salvo damage like the Warrior and Fox. In their case, reload is probably more important because any missed shot is a massive drop in DPM, and in AFVs spending your time reloading can be a death sentence. From my experience it also seems reload retrofits sometimes don't affect ATGMs either, thus giving you more reason to stack alpha.

On the other end of the spectrum, tanks with bad DPM usually also benefit more from alpha. Arty and MBTs come to mind. Arty especially should preferably deal as much damage as possible and still have time to relocate after firing, so if you have a faster reload you can in theory fire faster but you also become more vulnerable to counter-battery if you actually fire as often as possible.
MBTs usually rely on peekaboo tactics and don't have much in the way of good reload times anyway, so if they can get even 50 damage more than the enemy can with their shot then they're at an advantage.
Light tanks are the only tanks I think can get a much larger benefit from reload retrofits than alpha retrofits since they don't have particularly good alpha nor DPM and HEAT shells are a common part of their arsenal.
TDs of course have their sniper bonus which can further stack their damage and will probably never be in a position where they'll get to unload several shots in a row.

Though I guess ultimately it depends on what retrofits you have. I wouldn't take E.P. Mk. 1 over T.S. Mk. 2 because it simply provides a smaller benefit inherent to its mark. So unless you have E.P. Mk. 3 unlocked and another damage stacking retrofit at Mk. 3, I think almost everyone will use a combination of the best alpha retrofit and the best reload retrofit they can mount, since sadly you can't mount duplicates or even a lower mark of the same retrofit.

I'm interested in seeing what your analysis results will be.

[Britzz 500]

8 minutes ago, _WL said:

Though I guess ultimately it depends on what retrofits you have. I wouldn't take E.P. Mk. 1 over T.S. Mk. 2 because it simply provides a smaller benefit inherent to its mark. So unless you have E.P. Mk. 3 unlocked and another damage stacking retrofit at Mk. 3, I think almost everyone will use a combination of the best alpha retrofit and the best reload retrofit they can mount, since sadly you can't mount duplicates or even a lower mark of the same retrofit.

Totally agree, therefore I made my analysis considering same mk retrofits. What I've done it's just to give an idea of what happens with the different setups you can get and to have a rough idea of how different setups affect your DPM. Knowing this each player can choose according to the tank he is playing, the retrofits he has unlocked and the max mk he has. 

[Crossfader 1,142]

The only tank i have reload boosted is the RDF/LT. I have it down too 2.94 sec. Its alpha is so low to start of with anyways, i just decided to focus on the already low reload.

are they going to fix the commander skill for reload, none of mine ever work.

[Intumesce 1,695]

Supposedly they will be fixed in 0.11, but knowing Obsidian's track record I doubt it's actually fixed for good.

[Politx_Killer 803]

I preferred alpha over reload* and this confirms my belief. Cheers for the leg work.

 

*Tank class dependant. Basically anything that already hits hard and fast gets both EP and Reload reduction (TDs and Light tanks mainly)

 

Another thing to consider is AP only tanks (basically british) and the AP/HEAT slingers. As overmatch reduces damage from AP shells, is it worth hitting harder or faster? (Mainly thinking about the cheif and chally)

[Zinn 1,333]

DPM vs alpha depends on your play style, mostly, especially since the difference is so low. Do you have good enough positioning to be able to keep firing (often doable in camo vehicles) or do you poke once, shoot and retreat (MBT)?

It's kinda hard to do a real analysis without the replay system because what you have to keep track of is how often you actually fire vs how often you could fire and decide towards which end of the alpha/reload spectrum you fit. On most guns, a single extra shot from faster reload can cancel out the effect of increased alpha on several shots, so you need to find out which situation you tend to fit.

Likewise, some egghead needs to do HP comparisons to figure out when extra alpha may be worth it vs certain tanks, depending on what your'e driving. There's no point in doing 20 extra damage per shot if the opponent is still in a hitpoint range where you have to two-shot him to get the kill. At that point, reload is superior. So often will those few points of alpha actually save you time and boost your overall output?

[MntRunner 223]

I was about to post pretty much the same thing that Zinn posted. Alpha/DPM really depends on the vehicle you are playing, and your play style. Also in WOT, only the best players were able to maximize DPM so there could also be a skill factory to consider. 

 

The other thing that I want to say, which Zinn also mentioned, is the benefit you get from the alpha enhancing modules. With the enhanced propellant you get 5%, 6.3%, and 7.5% increase to alpha. When you think about it's that's a tiny increase. For a gun that does 100HP in damage that gives you an extra alpha of between 5 and 8 HP. for a 500 alpha gun that's between 25 and 40HP. For an autocannon that has an alpha of 30-40HP you only getting a boost of 1-2 HP. I just don't see the alpha being worth it except for the Mk3 module and then only on tanks that already have a high alpha. I'd much rather take modules that improve gun handling (aimtime/accuracy/moving accuracy) which allow me to get a shot off quicker and get to cover quicker. Damage plus avoiding return fire is better than slightly higher alpha and eating a round.  

[FrankyMcShanky 31]

Huh, interesting.  Taugrim posted his work on the reload rate formula over on Reddit and it seems like the more reload % you can stack the better it becomes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still gonna stack alpha on brawlers but it seems like reload is very good for snipers or anything that wants to maximize DPM output. 

[Britzz 500]

2 hours ago, FrankyMcShanky said:

Huh, interesting.  Taugrim posted his work on the reload rate formula over on Reddit and it seems like the more reload % you can stack the better it becomes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still gonna stack alpha on brawlers but it seems like reload is very good for snipers or anything that wants to maximize DPM output. 

Same formula I used here, considering retrofits only
As I said I based my calculations on the topic cited above

[Britzz 500]

11 hours ago, MntRunner said:

I was about to post pretty much the same thing that Zinn posted. Alpha/DPM really depends on the vehicle you are playing, and your play style. Also in WOT, only the best players were able to maximize DPM so there could also be a skill factory to consider. 

 

The other thing that I want to say, which Zinn also mentioned, is the benefit you get from the alpha enhancing modules. With the enhanced propellant you get 5%, 6.3%, and 7.5% increase to alpha. When you think about it's that's a tiny increase. For a gun that does 100HP in damage that gives you an extra alpha of between 5 and 8 HP. for a 500 alpha gun that's between 25 and 40HP. For an autocannon that has an alpha of 30-40HP you only getting a boost of 1-2 HP. I just don't see the alpha being worth it except for the Mk3 module and then only on tanks that already have a high alpha. I'd much rather take modules that improve gun handling (aimtime/accuracy/moving accuracy) which allow me to get a shot off quicker and get to cover quicker. Damage plus avoiding return fire is better than slightly higher alpha and eating a round.  

I do not totally agree with you.
While it is right that an autocannon will gain 2-3HP worth of dmg in ONE SHOT, can we talk about the actual salvo? Take the M113 (my data is from the wiki, it might be slightly off): single shot dmg 22HP with a salvo size of 30 rounds: 660HP of stock salvo dmg. Add the mk.1 propellant: 693. It's like you had a salvo of 31.5 shots while firing it (and being in exposed) for the same amount of time. An opponent M113 has 660HP, on average you will kill it 50% of the times with one salvo if you pen all your shots, with the exp. propellant this chance increases, making you capable of one salvoing an opponent. Also I do not think the intraclip reload is affected by the reload retrofits, as _WL said the reload on ATGMs also seems not to be affected (more tests are needed). Why would you get a better reload on AFVs when you might have both an autocannon and ATGMs?

Also it's a matter of playstyle as well, I stated that dmg retrofits are better in my opinion, I tried to put facts behind my statement. Other playstyles might need better reload times, but for now I think that dmg suits me best. That's the beauty of having setups that are viable in one way or another. We are not discussing optics/vents like in wot. Here you have a choice that can go in more depth, I'm loving it!

[DracoArgentum 116]

On 18/11/2015, 8:59:00, _WL said:

From my experience it also seems reload retrofits sometimes don't affect ATGMs either, thus giving you more reason to stack alpha.

 

I am sure it is supposed to, but is buggy. On my Swingfire I have the thermal sleeve and the in match reload is different between matches. Could be the loader skill doing that though. Training rooms available in a few hours!

 

IMO Alpha is better than DPM in a vacuum. When you add in the fact that you will often start a fight loaded alpha is even better. Aim time trumps both on most vehicles though.

[MntRunner 223]

On 11/19/2015, 1:57:50, Britzz said:

I do not totally agree with you.
While it is right that an autocannon will gain 2-3HP worth of dmg in ONE SHOT, can we talk about the actual salvo? Take the M113 (my data is from the wiki, it might be slightly off): single shot dmg 22HP with a salvo size of 30 rounds: 660HP of stock salvo dmg. Add the mk.1 propellant: 693. It's like you had a salvo of 31.5 shots while firing it (and being in exposed) for the same amount of time. An opponent M113 has 660HP, on average you will kill it 50% of the times with one salvo if you pen all your shots, with the exp. propellant this chance increases, making you capable of one salvoing an opponent. Also I do not think the intraclip reload is affected by the reload retrofits, as _WL said the reload on ATGMs also seems not to be affected (more tests are needed). Why would you get a better reload on AFVs when you might have both an autocannon and ATGMs?

Also it's a matter of playstyle as well, I stated that dmg retrofits are better in my opinion, I tried to put facts behind my statement. Other playstyles might need better reload times, but for now I think that dmg suits me best. That's the beauty of having setups that are viable in one way or another. We are not discussing optics/vents like in wot. Here you have a choice that can go in more depth, I'm loving it!

I see your point with the salvo, being able to clip out a tank. However, you also have to make sure every shot pens, so misses/bounces could easily prevent you from clipping them with one salvo. If you clip out without having killed them, then the faster reload becomes extremely important. However, I wasn't really advocating taking reload modules over the damage modules. I personally prefer taking the aim time and accuracy modules.I like to aim in and start shooting faster, and I like the accuracy modules more to help make sure I don't miss as often. I find making sure your shells hit is more important than extra alpha and potentially missing.

I know this thread is about comparing alpha and reload/DPM, but I don't think it's a worthwhile comparison unless you include the other firepower modules.

 

[Shackram 4,285]

For MBTs i go with aim time > alpha > reload, because it doesn't matter how fast you reload or how hard you hit if you waste too much time aiming or miss because of bad fire control.

Which ends up being aim time > (alpha = reload) because of the the retrofit options. :P

[Hîr-am-Helcaraxë 27]

Just my two cents, I downloaded the game 3 days ago so I'm just still testing varius things and getting the hang of it. Mostly played MBTs. Not sure if it's for the game being played on larger maps (longer distances) than wot or for the considerably minor rng when fully aimed compared to when not (at least I found it so) but I feel that aim time is crucial in this game: less exposing time and being able to quickly snapping peaking targets. However, regarding alpha damage vs sustained damage/dpm I think alpha is the obvious choice on MBTs since they clearly concentrate on that and have generally bad sustained damage to begin with, also dpm here is a lot less important than wot in my opinion (or at least at the low tiers when I am atm). Not sure about AFVs that relies on dpm, just played till tier 2, they don't peekaboo of course and they have really good sustained from what I saw so I guess they probably just shred the opponet with the insane dpm and maybe any % increase on dpm is magnified by the big numbers, have to test better on this.

In the end, yes I think that having 8,5% more alpha and 15,4% more sustained is better than having 5% more alpha and 16,3% more sustained (TS+EP+CLB vs TS+EP+B). Btw Britzz, I would've done an "alpha % increase" column too.

As I said aim time is important in my opinion, not sure if more than alpha (for the moment I this yes) and how much, having a game that let you play more like the tank needs as aw seems to be (aka not glass cannon sniping in Himmelsdorf) maybe will give us more options to fit the tank and situation. What I mean is that if the game developes correctly we'll be able to maximise (or rather minimise) aim time for snipey tanks and alpha for brawlers (or short range engagers as brawling in no near as common as in wot) and really make use of such improvements. But this thread is about alpha vs sustained so no point of discussing this further.

 

On 18/11/2015, 11:14:01, Britzz said:

The table gives a good overlook at the situation but a graph will be a bit more exhaustive

 +1 on this but the "area del tracciato" thing is really making me unconfortable...

[Britzz 500]

@Hîr-am-Helcaraxë

I thought the alpha% increase was clear enough with the raw numbers, but you are right I'll add it to the google sheet  

[SACRISTAR 2]

I'm no number cruncher but as some have mentioned, it's quite situational. Personally I just hate the reload time on the MBT-70 for example (and aim time for that matter). But I'm quite happy with the alpha. I also like to brawl with it and that's where I find the slow reload hurts me the most. So I'm inclined to go for reduced reload time. Very subjective choice I know =)

What I'm more interested in is how does aim time compare to improved accuracy. Not sure if there's a topic on here that covers that aspect. I haven't browsed through all of it yet

[Britzz 500]

8 hours ago, SACRISTAR said:

What I'm more interested in is how does aim time compare to improved accuracy. Not sure if there's a topic on here that covers that aspect. I haven't browsed through all of it yet

Unfortunately I do not have the "numbers" behind that. That means I don't really know the mechanics (ie max/min aim circle, aim time affected by max/min accuracy changes and all that stuff).
If I had more data I would try to get it analyzed, but since I don't have precise info on the mechanics it is difficult for me to analyze it.

[Intumesce 1,695]

Britzz, I think one important feature to bring up is crew skill bonuses, like the 7.5% from Mk. 3 Crew Intercoms and 10% from some commanders.
Naturally this only affects certain tanks, mainly only those who have a loader (or a loader as a secondary role) but it can be much more effective than most reload boosts.
For example, if you put on a retrofit piece that buffs reload speed by 4% and accuracy by 10%, you can instead compromise and get 7.5% with both by using Crew Intercoms, but you also get 7.5% in every stat covered by another crew member.

Since your loader doesn't affect your damage, you can obviously only get DPM from reload speed with Crew Intercoms, but unless you have to use a universal slot then you can easily put it in your technology slot for a free boost.
Wouldn't this mean that if you want to minmax your stat boosts, then you should always stack damage before reload as long as you have a technology slot?

[LamaLeif 92]

Are they fixing the intercoms to work like commanders 10% bonus? because at the moment it doesn't and is a huge waste of a slot.

[Intumesce 1,695]

 

Are they fixing the intercoms to work like commanders 10% bonus? because at the moment it doesn't and is a huge waste of a slot.

Yes. I believe 0.12 fixed it since I tested it very briefly on the RU test server.
It should provide the listed boost now which will make it a VERY good retrofit piece.

[LamaLeif 92]

Oh very nice indeed

[DracoArgentum 116]

 

Yes. I believe 0.12 fixed it since I tested it very briefly on the RU test server.
It should provide the listed boost now which will make it a VERY good retrofit piece.

I'd rate it as blatantly overpowered. The only reason it isn't autopick is that optics has a niche in the tech slot for scouts. Other than that I'd rate it over everything else, even the alpha retros.