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SkittlesOfSteeI

How do you determine if you should wait for enemies to come to you or play offensively and look for fights?

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So I had a battle that made me realize that I'm clueless when it comes to making decisions when I'm the last one left, I thought about putting this in tape study but this is more of a general question rather than asking to review my replay.. Several things that I know are:

  • Indecisiveness leads to losses 
  • Look for a place to overwatch a important part of the map
  • Look for isolated targets
  • Kill as fast as possible so that you don't have to deal with multiple tanks
  • Be unpredictable

But one thing I cannot figure out is whether to wait for them to come or not. I know that if I stay in a defensive spot for too long the I'll end up being swarmed by multiple tanks and if I get too aggressive I risk getting capped out. 

Here's some screenshots of the battle that made me come to this realization. Link to replay http://wotreplays.com/site/2313605#mountain_pass-meows_externally-t54e1

5ApI6we.jpg

Lights are in our base and I know that I can only kill one of them so I wait for a friend to help me.

wk4aUya.jpg

I tell my centurion friend to eat the shot as there is a 140 at f2 and could come around at anytime so at the time I thought we had to kill the foch asap as he is isolated and has one shot left

PnSwk3u.jpg

I set up an ambush with the help of my cent friend spotting for me  

HwHSlcc.jpg

I clip them out and my cent friend kills the T49. But unfortunately since I bounced the cent 7/1 my cent had to dive down to kill the 49 and ends up getting clicked.

iGjsGCi.jpg

 My cent spots these tier 8 heavies though so I wait until they are near the cap circle so I can catch them out.

jIhNe2J.jpg

The plan works and I kill the tiger and the carn dies 45 seconds later. Note that the waffle said "don't make me come over there" that leads me to believe he is base camping because he should be here by now if e was moving down the 1/2 line and I assume that arty is in the back clicking because most artillery players are not very intelligent (our arty)

umy66fM.jpg

Because the waffle said something that would lead me to believe that he is camping and the arty I assumed is somewhere in a bush at their cap I decide to go to their cap But I have 4 possible paths to take with the bridge being the quickest one. If go 1/2 I'll most likely run into the waffle and arty, if I go in the river bed I can get caught out from bridge or the perch, and if I go bridge the waffle could be waiting there for me so I decide to go ice road. Unfortunately they cap and I'm not able to get back in time. 

So my question is how do you determine if you should wait for them to come to you or play offensively and look for fights? And what factors help in making this decision?

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The factor is time.

Estimate how long it would take to go from your camping spot to their cap and cap them out, and wait in somewhere enclosed and comfortable until that time.

 

if your opponents are from a major clan, or if you have XVM and sees their stat as blue or higher, camp, they WILL come to you as long as they have the perceived advantage.

 

But then again, the amount of health on the Waffle is also a factor, if its more than 1600(your clip), then you should probably play active and not get yourself stuck in one place.

 

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Waffles are a bitch without workable armour because of their retarded gun handling and clip potential/alpha in 1v1's...

 

That said, I rarely ever stay on purpose, I'd rather flex somewhere else and have to flex back on the principle that I don't play on the enemy terms. If you wait them in they won't push until they feel like they control the situation and there you'll lose 9/10 times, so I'll always go somewhere else, make my gun useful, not giving them the ability to rape my tank try and be prepared for a capout, there's rarely the CW caps with 3 peeps at a time though so time usually isn't an issue in flexible tanks regarding getting back in time or not. 

If they push you they're either retarded or confident they can win, why allow them that chance at all? IMO there's a difference between staying back in case of a cap or similar, but controlling bases usually don't mean map control (although it means pressure), and staying back to maintain control of an area.

For example, Prokh. My team lost the hill so all my juicy sideshots from the middle are gone and I think they're gonna cross over soon, what do I do? Do I stay there? Ofc not, that'd be stupid, what I do is move up, to a spot where I can stil play defensive (usually the dip at the 3 line) but also keep an opportunity to support my team in what they might be doing.because unless you're 100% alone you're probably always going to wanna stick near your teammate, it makes everything a lot easier and covers more ground by default.

Erlenberg is probably a good example too, this map has probably the most blitz teams in the history of WoT, which is something you can really learn from because it means you're going to have to keep an eye on what the enemy team is actually doing rather than where they are. You spawn south, takes the west because of the hill that wins that entire engagement and the enemy team rushes the east instead. Now you're at a disadvantage because they have cover next to their cap where they can sidescrape and prevent your push while your cap is completely open and you need to go up close to decap. Then you might have to retreat, but you never stay. Unless you have things to shoot at there is absolutely no reason at all for sitting still, ever. 

So yes, you look for the fights. You play them on your terms until you need to fall back, otherwise you keep looking for fights until you run out of them, which is where you either win or have to retreat. 

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2 hours ago, SaintLuna said:

Find enemies with face, kill enemies with face, don't lose face. 

(Will update with more in depth aggro guide)

pretty much this. Play tanks where you can afford to get in close engagements and then just keep forcing brawls on your reload.

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It is far too situational to tell you.

I can only give insight on what could have been done based on screenies:

  • if you choose to go ice-road due to the fact the waffle is most likely heading from 1 line, you have the following pros and cons
    • pros
      • you kill arty and avoid the waffle
      • you proceed to cap as if the waffle is heading to your base for cap, there is no chance of a reset.
      • capable of heading back to base if waffle goes on cap before you are too committed
    • cons
      • if the waffle is capping, it is very easy to defend as you are forced to commit to one side (there is not enough time to go from ice road to 1/2 and vice versa.
      • possibility of full hp waffle
      • 50/50
  • remain on top of hill or utilize a similar position and abuse the 54E1's camo value (relative to the waffle) to your advantage (leaving just enough of your turret to shoot at a possible 1/2 push
    • pros
      • you are guaranteed to spot the waffle first as its camoflauge value is significantly worse than the an E100 on the move when sitting still (therefore it would be likely that you would spot the waffle long before he could spot you
      • this would enable you to get upwards 2 shells or even 3 if you are lucky.
      • this leaves you the option to back off after getting those first shells and flank and/or fake a flank if the waffle sits on cap or poke from a slightly different angle.
      • waffle not at full HP
    • cons
      • chance of arty splash
      • chance that the waffle is still camping
  • head towards the bridge
    • pros
      • chance of waffle being caught, if you position yourself properly to catch the waffle as he crosses into your base, you should be able to permanently track him and unload your clip
      • dead waffle assuming not full hp
      • option to drop down into the dead lake
    • cons
      • bridge is not safe from arty
      • waffle could already be right in your face by the time you turn your tank for bridge

Tl;dr

There is no best answer and only a series of hypothetical plays you can make. At the end of the day, each of these are equally likely to win you the game.
 

 

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First, ignore what the waffle says.  If it's a tomato camping you'll figure it out soon enough, and if not then he's just trying to trick you.  A lot depends on the situation and the map, but you really want to control all the engagements on your terms; if you are going to continue to defend base make sure it's from unexpected locations and always have options for retreat and attack.  If you are going to go to their base, make sure that you can still retreat (or attack) and can either detect or react if they go for cap.

 

Most importantly, try to figure out how to engage them independently. Don't give them time to group up; if they are grouped up try to take advantage of any separation between them or come from an unexpected direction.  Mountain Pass is pretty bad for this since there aren't many 'flanks', but you can use them.

1) How many tanks are they likely to put on cap

If they are likely to be able to get two tanks on cap, then you cannot win by capping and need to plan on how to kill them.

2) When they might get on cap compared to you

Even if it's just a single tank, if they get on at the same time it's a draw.  If it's two tanks even if they get on later it's a draw, but if they are really slow tanks you possibly can get enough cap points to win a cap race, but it's high risk.

3) How long it takes you to get to cap

It doesn't seem like a lot of time while you are driving to cap, but even if you go balls out it is a fair amount of time.  If they were already near cap they will probably get tired of playing it safe and get on cap.

4) Keep track of the timer

You want to leave yourself enough time to kill or cap out, but it looks like that gives you a decent chunk of time since it looks like the timer was at 6:30.

5) Are the enemies platooned or do you have reason to expect them to work together?

In your case I wouldn't generally assume that arty is going to move around much, so that's a bit unlucky to get an arty with half a brain and waffle that's willing to wait for support before driving in.

 

In your specific case, I wouldn't go the ice road because you lose too much information and ability to react to the map; you are giving them too much advantage.  If you push up the 9/0 line once you get spotted by arty the waffle gets a free release to cap for a draw or win, or knows where you are to try for the kill shot possibly coordinated with arty.  Trying to kill arty while coming from that direction is also hard, because they have a spotting advantage and can use terrain to slow down your attack; it is far less likely that they'll be in position for early lights and good spots on anyone coming from middle.  You need to get damage or kills as soon as you get spotted; if you deal no damage or take 10-20 seconds to get a kill shot on arty you have probably lost the game.  On other maps you have more flexibility, but on Mountain Pass you don't have enough options and it's too slow.

 

Use the ridge at your base to try to detect the waffle down the 1/2 line.  Don't wait around to get shot, but pop up and see if your sixth sense goes off.  If the waffle is there, you can control his progress there by spotting him from different locations but it's risky because now they both know where you are.

 

The other option is to figure out how to surprise him, or figure out how to surprise him; for example you can go ice road through the middle and maybe catch him from behind - if he knows that you are in base it's unlikely that he'll move to spot middle since that's very exposed, and if he just drives onto cap you'll have enough time to reset still.  Arty takes awhile to aim and has limited shots, so even if you get spotted you should be able to deal with it before being clicked.

 

While you are correct that the middle in general is an exposed area, it is not nearly so bad when there are only two tanks.  Think about what the waffle is trying to do; hanging around the south perch watching middle is not defending base and is not attacking, and the waffle doesn't have great depression so it can be a dangerous spot.  It's just not a place you will expect to see the waffle.  You also don't need to derp in, if you go ice road you can see if there is someone on the bridge, then you can get under the bridge and see if there is someone on the ledge/perch and only move forward after confirming that.

 

The other thing is that you have to change your risk assessment based on the game situation.  While diving into the middle might be risky, it is probably less risky than other options (assuming waffle is still 1/2 line).

 

 

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I am more scrub than you but map knowledge is important... but first NEVER trust what the enemy team says PERIOD. Those bastaards lie to confuse you... that's what I do anyway. 

On this map both the ice road and middle dip are slow and exposed. If you go low, you are slow. If you miss the enemies they reach your cap you saw that. 

They were never spotted, this means you have to search for them where you can dodge. Bridge is crap for that but a quick check  without crossing is worth the time.  I would probably think about going down as well but getting back up is so painfully sloe :(

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