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WT Pz 4 worship thread

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I searched for a bit and couldn't find a dedicated WT Pz4 appreciation thread. Sue me.

Anyways, welcome to the shrine for the best t9 TD. Many think that the Roomba is the high point of the Waffentrager line - it sports unbelievable camo and great guns. Some vouch for the behemoth that is the WT E100 - the leviathan capable of demolishing a Maus in under ten seconds. In between those, though, lies an oft-overlooked gem - the Waffle 4. 

So, why do I think the Waffle 4's so good? Especially considering its proceeding/succeeding brethren? It's simple. The Waffle 4 improves on the Borsig by mounting probably the second best gun in the game after the British L1A1 - the long 128. The shell velocity, the penetration, the alpha, the accuracy, and the aimtime are all great (well, maybe the alpha isn't "great", but 560 is still perfectly respectable, and it adds up when your reload is less than ten seconds) on this gun, making this probably *the* premier damage dealer in tier, especially at long ranges. The 150 is viable, too - you just have to get up close and personal, playing peekaboom - with surprisingly good dpm for 750 alpha, over 3000. 

The firepower's great. Definitely some of the best in tier. But what I feel differentiates this from the t8 and the t10 is the speed, the camo, and some other features. The speed was kinda a letdown with the Rhm. It wasn't a T95, but it was no, say, JP2. The Waffle isn't, either, but it's noticeably more mobile than the Rhm (around 16 hp/t, compared to 11). Imo, it's around as fast as an IS-3. The decent mobility combined with maneuverability (you won't get circled in this thing, with a combined 54 deg/second traverse) means that you can relocate and set up ambushes in different places as the battle progresses. The camo, while not as good as the Rhm's (seriously, what is?), is still pretty darn good. It has a base camo of around 16%, slightly more than a T-62. With a camo crew and binocs, you'll spot things long before they spot you. Last - the turret. The Rhm has a turret, yes, but the Waffle 4's is so much better, because it's rear-mounted as opposed to center-mounted. This makes peeking out of cover (reversing), firing, and moving forwards into cover astoundingly easy. It just feels right, if you've driven one of these you know what I mean. It facilitates peekabooming by minimizing exposure and allowing you to get into cover faster than something with a front-mounted turret (or a center-mounted one, of course). Something to note - the guns have quirky elevation/depression characteristics. With the 128, you have around 45 degrees of elevation frontally, and only 24 with the 150. You also, with the 128, have a much wider arc in which you have that 45 degrees. The 150's tapers off relatively quickly. You have 2 degrees of depression frontally with the 128 and 5 to the rear; the 150 gets 4 frontally and 5 to the rear. Knowing your amount of elevation/depression at specific points on the vehicle with each gun is tantamount to maximizing your performance in this tank. 

I compared this thing to the Rhm a bunch, what about the WT E100? That's because this is so much more similar (probably bad grammar) to the Rhm than the papa waffle. It's stealthy, it's kinda quick, it has fantastic firepower. The E100, as you probably know, is none of these things (except the speed, that's quite similar). I personally preferred the Waffle 4, which is why I sold the E100 and rebought this. It helped that I was absolute trash in the WT E100 - look at my stats if you want confirmation. This thing is fun to play, the T10 is, in my opinion, not. 

Here's one of my replays, using the 15. http://wotreplays.com/site/2376428#teams The 150, due to the mega damage alpha, has higher carry potential - but the 128 is more precise, and due to the other characteristics, imo a better gun. I was trying to find a specific game I remembered with the 128 (another 5k+), but unfortunately it seems to have disappeared into the ether. 

So, discuss the best t9 tank destroyer :)

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another minor note, the 150 is 3 tons lighter than the 128, meaning you get around 10% more HP/T for a noticeable mobility increase.

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I don't think that HP/ton should count that much to use a fairly inferior gun over the 128.

The 12,8 cm gun has god-like shell velocity combined with really good RoF for that alpha. It is accurate as hell, and shots look like coming above the camera when in sniper mode (sorry, couldn't describe better) which  means you can snipe cupolas of hulldown tanks all day long. Maybe it is just placebo effect, maybe not, I liked it. Did I mention the god-like shell velocity which means you can hit any moving target at the other end of the map?!

The 15 cm on the other hand has trash AP pen and HEAT as premium ammo. The shell velocity sucks diiiicks, you are basically forced to fight in close combat, where your camo doesn't matter. Oh and it has crappy accuracy. That gun is only viable on the E100, but you should NEVER use it on any other tank.

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I don't think that HP/ton should count that much to use a fairly inferior gun over the 128.

The 12,8 cm gun has god-like shell velocity combined with really good RoF for that alpha. It is accurate as hell, and shots look like coming above the camera when in sniper mode (sorry, couldn't describe better) which  means you can snipe cupolas of hulldown tanks all day long. Maybe it is just placebo effect, maybe not, I liked it. Did I mention the god-like shell velocity which means you can hit any moving target at the other end of the map?!

The 15 cm on the other hand has trash AP pen and HEAT as premium ammo. The shell velocity sucks diiiicks, you are basically forced to fight in close combat, where your camo doesn't matter. Oh and it has crappy accuracy. That gun is only viable on the E100, but you should NEVER use it on any other tank.

I think it's a legit gun for a Borzig if you want to spam heat and use chocolate, the ability to two-shot IS-3 at least gives you some leverage in QQ environment. I do agree that 12.8 is better on Rhm for consistency . 

For Mini-waffle 12.8 is the only viable choice however.

 

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2nd game after re-buying it... had i been in any other non-turreted TD i would have lost. i was down to 280 HP vs 3 arties.

sh9ZbNy.jpg

I tries the 150 on the Borsig and absolutely hated it, way to fucking derpy for my taste. Im going to stick with the long 128 in the WFT4, i just love the "laser" feel, and the lol, fuck your armor, 352mm APCR pen. 560 alpha is pretty dam good. I think its the best balance between the high alpha of the 704 and the 400 alpha of the Foch.

Also, only mouting the 2nd radio(550m range) saves you 100kg at the cost of 150m radio range, not much but its something (stock radio is 10kg lighter but only 400m range)

 

 the ability to two-shot IS-3

 

except that your AP will bounce and your HEAT will hit either the tracks or the magic spaced side armor... because russia

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Yea, I got this thing after the nerfs/corridor meta.  Had the roomba before the nerfs.  I used the 1st 150 as well while grinding because camo sniping is no more (mostly), so pop out and hit them with the 150 after they fire at ally.  But I gave up with the 150 and went back with 128 for better flexibility.  I also only have it for missions.

150mm has 0 elevation in the rear. (wtf)  Even the side with 15 elevation can feel shitty when playing around hills.

128mm Front 45/2, Side 45/5, Rear 14/5
u2FWnPj.png

150mm, Front 24/4, Side 15/5, Rear 0/5
aH5boC6.png

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I hated the borsig in general. Fair enouh I got it after they nerfed it and after the accuracy nerf, but man thoose guns suck. Yeah, both.

I played the JP2 as my first T8 ever (okay, maybe IS-3 was the first, whatever) and I have better hitrate with it and I actually enjoyed that tank. You could say hitrate doesn't matter but when you can't rely on armor, you have to rip your enemies apart as fast as possible which is kinda hard when you miss everything. No carry potential either.

The WT Pz4 is a massive upgrade over the Borsig imho. That is like the only high-tier (T8+) TD I love. I enjoy the 704 from time to time (hated the ISU, too. Fuck me, right?) but WT is da TD. 

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There is no arguing that the 1,28cm isn't the better gun. However, the mobility increase with the 1,5cm is significant. With both the tier 9 and 10 waffles, I really wish you could pick which gun to use after you see the map and team compositions. I'd rather have the 1,5cm if I know I'm going to have to do quick pokes in close quarters or flex around a lot.

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 I really wish you could pick which gun to use after you see the map and team compositions.

that would be really great

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There is no arguing that the 1,28cm isn't the better gun. However, the mobility increase with the 1,5cm is significant. With both the tier 9 and 10 waffles, I really wish you could pick which gun to use after you see the map and team compositions. I'd rather have the 1,5cm if I know I'm going to have to do quick pokes in close quarters or flex around a lot.

Agreed. I ground through it with the 128; when I rebought it, I initially used the 150 - it's more fun, and dat alpha. However, I've since switched to the 128 because better pretty much anything. It's just so much more reliable, even on city maps. When peeking, it's nice to know that you can autoaim the majority of targets and expect to pen, instead of having to aim for either weakspots or non-tracks/spaced armor. 

Also that elevation. Almost as nice as the flak bus. 

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There is no arguing that the 1,28cm isn't the better gun. However, the mobility increase with the 1,5cm is significant. With both the tier 9 and 10 waffles, I really wish you could pick which gun to use after you see the map and team compositions. I'd rather have the 1,5cm if I know I'm going to have to do quick pokes in close quarters or flex around a lot.

I would've used the 150 for minimizing exposure if it wasn't for cancerous depression/elevation.  Nothing worse that aiming in on someone only to hit a little bump and not be able to reach them.

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This thread makes me wanna rebuy the wtfpz4. I sucked hard with it. Rage sold it to buy the WTF100 which I sucked with even more.

Dat shell velocity tho...

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This thread makes me wanna rebuy the wtfpz4. I sucked hard with it. Rage sold it to buy the WTF100 which I sucked with even more.

Dat shell velocity tho...

Do it :oscar:

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Played 12.8 cm gun. Love it. Then decided to try the 15cm gun. Sold the gun after playing two battles with it. lmao.

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I hated the borsig in general. Fair enouh I got it after they nerfed it and after the accuracy nerf, but man thoose guns suck. Yeah, both.

I played the JP2 as my first T8 ever (okay, maybe IS-3 was the first, whatever) and I have better hitrate with it and I actually enjoyed that tank. You could say hitrate doesn't matter but when you can't rely on armor, you have to rip your enemies apart as fast as possible which is kinda hard when you miss everything. No carry potential either.

The WT Pz4 is a massive upgrade over the Borsig imho. That is like the only high-tier (T8+) TD I love. I enjoy the 704 from time to time (hated the ISU, too. Fuck me, right?) but WT is da TD. 

Thank you for this post.

I played the Borsig this weekend and had the same experience. It's nice to hear that the tier 9 will be a nice improvement. I'm trying to get it for missions.

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I like the WT4 for its versatility compared to other TDs. Just like you said, it does the sniping game very well (camo/turret/laser-gun) and on the city maps you can handle the peek-a-booms by reversing around corners. Like it a lot more than the WTF100, which I only play to finish missions.

Too bad it lost some of its view range, because I liked to move up and scout for myself :awyeah:

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I don't mean to hijack this thread, but how do you lot rate the T30 (after the HD model) compared to the WT Pz 4? 

I'm currently trying to decide where to spend some free xp, and I don't really enjoy TD's so I'll only do one of the lines. My goal used to be the T30, but the HD model has made me uncertain of my choice.

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This tank was OP, and the best in line even before the nerfs to the Roomba and WTE100.

It had no roomba cloaking device, or monstrous clip, but it had no autoloader downtime, workable camo, better acc, shell speed and gun depression than roomba. Radio operator and 2 loaders meant sexier crew skills. Top it up wit the speed of a sluggish medium, and it was the most flexible TD of camping meta, best  in getting forward sniping positions , capable of relocating from winning flank to the falling one, and then slaughtering the enemy heavies that broke through by camo advantage...and when it fails, by sheer dpm.

But now is obsolete, with the meta changes. I have almost 500 battles in it, and less than 30 in last year.

no more long firing lanes...and even the draw range changed...best tank for 700 m sniping...BL-10 is better at ranges under 300 m, and that is now 90% of the time (and half of which is 150 m now)

I was constantly purple in it, the first tank i truly excelled. 2 MOE, and many purples played it all the time, very hard to ace. 5-7 k dmg games happen almost every open map.

Now i struggle in it, and ISU is easier for me to grind the missions with. 

150 is a good gun to grind the long 128 and tracks, since you need them to mount the sexy gun.

In the good old days you could slaughter heavies all day from 500 m distance...Sand River dune top out of draw anyone?

Now it is just a fragile tinderbox, like the Leo...your hitpoints are a lie...you will get engine destroyed, a fire and 1-2 injured crew members by the time you lose 50% of health...meaning you are too crippled to return fire effectively. 

It was not a one trick pony, but it is now out of all its trics

While Jag was exactly the opposite...one dimensional as all German boxes...but that dimension is matters now.

Jagdtiger is now better on 90% of maps. It can tank heavies now, thanks to the sheer hitpoints/dpm advantage, and only module that gets damaged is now the engine...for such a slug not a problem anyway...since you do not burn any more, just getting stuck...which is fine if you are in a typical WG map an narrow alley...which you will block with your huge ass when you die anyway.

And if you get clicked you will not loose 1/5 health like Jag...you will lose 2/3 if you get lucky...and even splashes could cripple you.

Only tank where you need all 3 big kits....

This tank was nerfed by meta change harder than KV1S or hellcat...which went from OP to good tanks even now...

And being blind as tier VI does not help at all. It had 410 view range!. With BIA, optics,Sit aw and recon it could outspot russian mediums by a huge margin.

Try using binos now. just try. 50% of times you will get 2 shells before 6th sense turns on.

For camping in a bush Jagdtiger is now better. At least people need to aim and load HEAT to kick your ass when you get spotted, and you have hitpoints of tier X. And its vision is now 20 m better, at 390 is best in the whole game for TD class...many tier X tds have less.

Also, "silent" nerfs to reload happened, previously the waffle line had a few % better reload than "armor" line, but now the situation is reversed. Not sure was it a buff to armor line of a nerf to waffles.

They have butchered my mistress:cri:

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T 30 is best tier IX td now. My bro got it recently, and in this meta, this thing is a blast.

Obj 704 had mostly camo as better quality than T 30. Now irrelevant. T30: Turret + actual armor + gun depression+ buffed acc means that 704 is now nerfed by taking the vision game away from it, and its armor is only 190 mm thick at most...it relied on troll armor factor from range, and now in close encounters it suffers a lot. Its dpm advantage was also more important before, in sniping meta. Now it is only trades and peekaboo. having the hard turret means you could avoiding damage...704 means you get permatracked going around corners.

jag 2nd best, but very close. Has no turret and weaker alpha, but everything else better, so it keeps up. T30 gold round is not a silver bullet like the jag shells...which penn everything from any direction, once aimed (E3 and E 5 cupolas, even the IS-7 turret weakspot if he does not wiggle).

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I've just recently bought WTF 100 and WTF 9 is a lot better imo.....

Can someone explain me why I to 2500 DPG in WTF 9 compared to 2200 in WTF 100?...........

Thinking of stopping to play WTF100

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Can someone explain me why I to 2500 DPG in WTF 9 compared to 2200 in WTF 100?...........

 

The 100 in WTF100 stands for 100% team dependent. You can't push because you'll get spotted and die. You can't really flex because you'll get spotted and die. If you don't have enough competent backup, then you'll get pushed and die during reload.

All it's really good for is farming damage off your team's HP. Sometimes it can work as a deterrent if the other team knows where you are, but in that case you aren't doing any damage.

The tier 9 has a good combination of camo, mobility, size, alpha and DPM. It can be useful in a lot more situations. The WTF100 has to hide, pounce and hide again while the tier 9 can provide a constant presence.

I bought it for doing missions, but I'm starting to think that I may have been better off keeping the Waffle4 and grinding out the Jg100, FV183 or Obj263. Hell, I have a higher DPG in the T110E3 and it's as slow as molasses.

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Pure diarrhea

Complete lack of depression makes me envious of Chinese tanks

thats why you always turn your side / back to the enemy, that way you have much more gun depression

Infact, you should always fight in reverse, more gun depression, no engine damage, a smaller target, and you can run away much faster

WTF-P4 is akward to play, but very good

ps: its a bit like archer, except you dont have to stupid bad forward speed, but just like archer you need to turn around a lot

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