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Nisa

Why the Warspite is the Yamato of tier 6s.

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Port over of a friend's post from the Asia forums.
 

14.3

Remember this magic number during this thread.

 

I have myself a Warspite, and tested the Yamato on multiple occasions every now and then.

 

Now for those who played WoT would know what overmatch is. In WoT, if your shell calibre is more than 3x the thickness if your enemy armor, you will always pen.

In World of Warships, if your shell calibre is more than 14.3x than the enemy's thickness, it will always pen.

However you dont really notice this because of overmatching, usually a shell that size compared to an armor than thin would overmatch i.e. DDs and CLs.

 

However, on battleships this is different.

 

Yamato's main guns are 460mm, tier 9 and tier 10bbs have a bow armor of 32mm.

This means than the Yamato will ALWAYS penetrate your bow armor, no matter the angle. And then proceeds to citadel you.

Thats why the Yamato is so OP because angling against her makes no difference. In fact, its worse to angle against her because she can citadel you frontally.

 

But hold up, why does the Warspite have to do with this?

Warspite guns are 381mm.

New Mexicos and Fuso's guns are 356mm.

 

The armor of tier 6 battleships bow are 25mm thick.

Posted Image

Posted Image

 

25mm x 14.3 = 357.5.

This means to overmatch the bow armor of a tier 6 BB, you need a calibre of 357.5mm or above. In which ONLY the Warspite has.

This also explains why Tier 7 BBs and their 16" guns kill Tier 6 BBs very easily.

 

tl;dr, Warspite overmatches the Bow of NM, Fuso is a 50% chance due to the 102mm sides,

Dont angle your front towards the Warspite.

 

This is what makes the Warspite the best tier 6 BB IMO.

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1 hour ago, Nisa said:

In fact, its worse to angle against her because she can citadel you frontally.

no, angling still presents a smaller target and allows you to dodge shots that are properly led by simply turning in.  I personally think the mechanic should be buffed because 25-32mm armor bouncing BB caliber rounds is stupid IMO.

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3 hours ago, Tedster59 said:

no, angling still presents a smaller target and allows you to dodge shots that are properly led by simply turning in.  I personally think the mechanic should be buffed because 25-32mm armor bouncing BB caliber rounds is stupid IMO.

Hope it doesn't get buffed too much though,it would be very unpleasant if 30mm decks start getting overmatched.

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The game and BB play in general is in a weird state.

For example it is easy to oneshot Clevelands in a Warspite, when the Cleveland is not sailing broadside to you, but shows its bow.

Same goes for Nürnberg and Königsberg. The overpenetration is far too common and totally unrealistic. Even if overpens do occur in real life...a DD or Cruiser eating a complete AP salvo from a BB would not go away almost undamaged.

 

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I don't know much about WoWS. Can someone explain to me what "citadel you" means?

Is this like ammo-racking?

I thought the citadel is the big central part of the ship with all the towers and stuff?

If that's the case, how does a shell hitting the front of the ship travel far enough to reach the citadel?

Or am I just totally confused?

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No, you are not confused.

Yeah the citadel is below the chimney and below the turrets there are citadels too.

When you pen a citadel, the shell does its maximum damage, which is a lot more than a shell normally does. Around 15K for the Warspite for example.

You can citadel from the front, the shell really travels through the ship. And why not? Most interior is thin air.

And there is enough armor to fuse the shell too and enough time for it to explode inside the ship.

When you hit a Cleveland broadside, most AP shells just travel through the ship above the citadel, in on one side, and out on the other side, resulting in a measly 1K damage.

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Just now, PrivateBert said:

No, only the citadels have strong enough armor for that to happen.

A battleship shell weighs a ton and travels really fast. That's a lot of kinetic energy.

 

Makes sense given the range they can fire from...

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1 hour ago, PrivateBert said:

The game and BB play in general is in a weird state.

For example it is easy to oneshot Clevelands in a Warspite, when the Cleveland is not sailing broadside to you, but shows its bow.

Same goes for Nürnberg and Königsberg. The overpenetration is far too common and totally unrealistic. Even if overpens do occur in real life...a DD or Cruiser eating a complete AP salvo from a BB would not go away almost undamaged.

 

Accuracy is also substantially higher than IRL. Gameplay > RL. In order to have a not-terrible experience you need a good battleship to land more than 4% of its shots from a reasonable range. That means the over penetration mechanic needs to be more pronounced because otherwise cruisers and destroyers are worthless. 

I think the general class interaction is actually ok at the moment. 

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I still think it would be better if the damage output was more consistent in a BB.

One salvo does 2K, the next does 30K, all depends if you score a citadel or not.

Less citadel damage and more overpen damage might be better.

Class interaction is ok for me too, it just feels a bit weird at the moment when playing a BB.

On the other hand: those big hits are what make BBs so fun to play.

But yeah, I am fine with the balance too. The game is really fun to play, I enjoy 3 of 4 classes a lot :)

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2 hours ago, PrivateBert said:

No, you are not confused.

Yeah the citadel is below the chimney and below the turrets there are citadels too.

When you pen a citadel, the shell does its maximum damage, which is a lot more than a shell normally does. Around 15K for the Warspite for example.

You can citadel from the front, the shell really travels through the ship. And why not? Most interior is thin air.

And there is enough armor to fuse the shell too and enough time for it to explode inside the ship.

When you hit a Cleveland broadside, most AP shells just travel through the ship above the citadel, in on one side, and out on the other side, resulting in a measly 1K damage.

Only the max damage?

It doesnt, you know, blow the ship out of the water like in the battle of Jutland or anything?

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2 minutes ago, Serene_Potato said:

Only the max damage?

It doesnt, you know, blow the ship out of the water like in the battle of Jutland or anything?

Oh, there are 1-shots in the game. Either by a salvo with several citadels or by magazine detonation (like the one that happened to the Hood).

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You will get magazine hits. They show up as a detonation ribbon. You also get flags to reduce the chance of detonation by 100 percent. Every time a ship of yours detonates or detonates an enemy you will get 10 flags to reduce detonation if that makes sense.

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2 hours ago, PrivateBert said:

Was taking the numbers from my head, that is why I wrote ~15K.

Is it 13K? I think the point is clear anyway.

Yamato used to break 15k (15840), now it's at 14800.

Other shell values:

Izumo: 12900

Nagato/amagi: 12600

Fuso/kongo: 10200

Myogi: 10000

Kawachi: ~8200

 

Iowa/Montana: 13500

NoCal: 13100

Colorado: 12600

NM:10500

NY: 10300

Wyoming/SC: 8300

 

Tirpitz: 11600

Warspite: 11400

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The damage consistency is what irks me about BBs.

I feel alot more effective ladling the decks of enemies with HE in a pew-pew Cruiser like the Murmy or Mikhail.

Warspite is still lovely though, cos once you get close (but not too close RIP torps) it's so easily to brutalise enemy cruisers with the for once not terribad accuracy & dispersion.

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4 hours ago, OOPMan said:

Oh. I thought the interior would have enough bulkheads and stuff to slow the shell down enough :-/

There are two different kinds of armor, a solid thick deck of steel or layers of steel with  gaps in between them (i.e. spreading your armor over several decks). Typically citadel armor is the former and Torpedo Bulges are the ladder, but spaced armor can be effective against shell hits. 

As to the armor modeling in WoWS (please correct me if I'm wrong), this is greatly simplified to a ship armor model and a citadel box armor model that's inside of the ship armor model. As a consequence to this simplification of the armor system, certain ships that were design to rely more on spaced armor perform less than what you'd expect in the game when compared to what is theoretically possible out of the game.  

11 minutes ago, Pocktio said:

The damage consistency is what irks me about BBs.

I feel alot more effective ladling the decks of enemies with HE in a pew-pew Cruiser like the Murmy or Mikhail.

Warspite is still lovely though, cos once you get close (but not too close RIP torps) it's so easily to brutalise enemy cruisers with the for once not terribad accuracy & dispersion.

I find that BB is pretty consistent if you consider the damage dealt over the entire length of the engagement rather than a per salvo damage. It averages out the peaks (citadel hits) and the bottoms (bounce/overpen) so that over the course of the engagement. But I think this is somewhat subjective depending on what you expect out of an engagement. 

I don't like CA as much as BB because I feel like I have less map control with CA. A solid salvo from BB typically cause your enemy to cede ground or at least reduce their momentum. You also have enough armor/hp to stay in a contested area provided you have teamates to screen DDs. 

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7 hours ago, PrivateBert said:

Same goes for Nürnberg and Königsberg. The overpenetration is far too common and totally unrealistic. Even if overpens do occur in real life...a DD or Cruiser eating a complete AP salvo from a BB would not go away almost undamaged.

The problem's largely down to WG's decision not to have any RNG on damage or penetration (aside from the ricochet check). Amusingly, most players think it does anyway. IRL some proportion of AP shells would overpen a cruiser, while others would hit enough junk to detonate internally.

Another issue with the absolutist mechanics is that BBs can reliably overpen cruiser citadels at close ranges and flat angles, which does the same damage as overpenning anything else.

Any changes would need to be balanced, though. If AP hits on cruisers were less likely to overpen then they'd probably need to be compensated by reduced citadel damage. As citadels would still need to deal much more damage than standard hull penetrations, there's not much scope for change.

Of course, you do already have a low-RNG option against cruisers. It's called HE :P

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36 minutes ago, Tedster59 said:

the armor model is extremely complex and detailed, just the nature of a HP-based system can hurt some ships based on the arbitrary coefficients they've chosen.

Stand Corrected

18 minutes ago, RichardNixon said:

Of course, you do already have a low-RNG option against cruisers. It's called HE :P

It is surprisingly effective in some instances by knocking out turrets and torp tubes. AP/HE choice is definitely not a cut and dry single right choice option like in WoT

 

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26 minutes ago, ncc81701 said:

Stand Corrected

yeah, from what I've seen of Yamato's armor model, they model nearly every single bit of it.

and it's complex

(massive picture, recommend opening in new tab and zooming in)

Spoiler

Fig_1-31.jpg

 

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