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1 hour ago, zippy_the_cat said:

So you're saying participation is a bad thing.

I'm saying that clans having to run two teams for 1-2 hours a night for maintenance and upkeep cost of their few provinces on the map in addition to clan wars is a bad thing.  Somehow, you think it was good to require clan members to run stronghold battles 6 or 7 nights a week for a few hours a night just for maintenance costs is a good thing?  That's exactly why so many top clans and top players are no longer around.  Its the reason I left the Relic community last year.  I dreaded stronghold skirmish battles after doing them several nights a week for a few hours a night for months on end.

 

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I'm not arguing the tier 10 economy in 2.0 was anything but screwed up and would concede the point if the same argument's made for tier 8. What I am arguing is that there's a place for tier 6 CW. What we had with CW 1.0 was also a screwed-up economy, one that gave the VILINs and MAHOUs of the world (or their contemporary equivalents) more gold than they could possibly spend and made it possible for their members to run all-prem loadouts all the time at any tier they chose to play. And diplomacy, not game play, made it free money; there was so much non-aggression going on that the 1.0 map was static, in my observation (I didn't have to play 1.0 to see the map). 

I see absolutely no place at all for tier 6 clan wars.  Its like little league T-ball where nobody keeps score.  Its a feel good about yourself event.  For most players, tier 6 clan wars doesn't teach you anything more than you learn doing tier 6 stronghold skirmish battles. In addition to that, The tiny bit of gold isn't worth the time put into it.  It doesn't teach most players what they need to know for tier 8 and tier 10 clan wars.

Many of the clans you saw on the tier 6 map during season 1 were playing tier 10 clan wars several nights a week in clan wars 1.0.  However the tier 10 map became so small that they were no longer able to compete at tier 10.  Most of the tier 8 map the first season was clans who participated in tier 10 clan wars in clan wars 1.0.

If you think that most of the top clan players were spending only gold instead of credits for the premium consumables and ammo then you are most likely wrong.  Most of the players in the top 20 clans can make enough profit playing regular battles and strongholds that they don't need to spend gold for premium consumables and ammo.  Even I can turn a profit playing tier 7 and 8 pub battles without a premium account.

In Clan Wars 2.0 on the tier 10 map it was pretty much stagnant last year.  There was very little fighting among the top clans for most of the season.  Its the same situation, free money.  Its no different than clan wars 1.0 was in that regard.  The top clans carved out their spots and sat there collecting gold.  Its the way thing work at tier 10 with the top clans until a campaign starts or someone gets really bored and stirs up some shit.

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In no way should tier 6 CW have the same pay-outs as tier 8 or tier 10; it of course should pay less, given the smaller team size, etc, and the imperative to encourage clans to develop. But it needs to be an available option, so there's an entry point into competitive play other than the weekly tourneys. I don't think the argument that its existence takes away from tier 8 or 10 CW holds any water. What affects those is the overall economy of the game. If you're able and willing to buy prem time and prem tanks, you can have and play a large tier 10 stable. If you're not, you can't, period.

Like I said before I played tier 10 clan wars in two clans without having premium time and credits weren't an issue.  The entry point should be tier 8.  Saying that tier 6 clan wars prepares players for tier 8 and 10 clan wars is a joke.

Having 49% of the clan wars map be tier 6 clan wars does take away from tier 8 and tier 10.  It restricts the number of players who can participate in clan wars at higher tiers.  There was no lack of activity or participation in clan wars 1.0 with tier 10 clan wars.  Now very few players can play tier 10 clan wars.  I've even seen players on the regular forums say that their tier 10 tanks have been collecting dust since clan wars 2.0 came to be and they wish they could participate in tier 10 clan wars again.

In the end, I see no logical reason why the tier 6 map has the largest number of provinces other than to make players feel good that they are participating in clan wars.  Its a participation trophy.  It does not teach players the skills they need for higher level clan wars.  It does not teach players higher level skills and strategies. It takes away from higher tier clan wars participation.

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4 hours ago, zippy_the_cat said:

one that gave the VILINs and MAHOUs of the world (or their contemporary equivalents) more gold than they could possibly spend and made it possible for their members to run all-prem loadouts all the time at any tier they chose to play. And diplomacy, not game play, made it free money; there was so much non-aggression going on that the 1.0 map was static, in my observation (I didn't have to play 1.0 to see the map). 

Simply inaccurate.  1.0 never gave that much gold, not even in the NASA days.  At most it could pay members' premium time.

The idea that 1.0 was stagnant is simply ignorant.  The Arctic Circle almost always had action, and at least once every six months a war would break out amongst some the better clans as well.  Once every 1-2 years every major clan on the map went to war in a true server war. 1.0 stagnation was and is a myth perpetuated by the jealous and uninformed from that era.

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16 hours ago, Bavor said:

I'm saying that clans having to run two teams for 1-2 hours a night for maintenance and upkeep cost of their few provinces on the map in addition to clan wars is a bad thing.  Somehow, you think it was good to require clan members to run stronghold battles 6 or 7 nights a week for a few hours a night just for maintenance costs is a good thing?  That's exactly why so many top clans and top players are no longer around.  Its the reason I left the Relic community last year.  I dreaded stronghold skirmish battles after doing them several nights a week for a few hours a night for months on end.

You're putting words in my mouth. I never said any such thing. In fact, I said the tier 10 economy was screwed up. Probably the tier 8 economy was too. At tier 6, however, the maintenance cost was pretty reasonable. Four-five wins a night in SH covered them. And the guys in my clan like doing SH; for many of them, it beats pubbing. Hell, last night after tournament and a multi-hour landing battle to win a province I had guys who were begging to start a SH. Me personally, I can take or leave it; I've got plenty of SH battles under my belt and mainly join when it's the difference between the squad having 7 tanks instead of 6. Keeping that going is why clans have junior officers.

16 hours ago, Bavor said:

It doesn't teach most players what they need to know for tier 8 and tier 10 clan wars.

Focus-fire and hitpoint conservation are universal. 

16 hours ago, Bavor said:

If you think that most of the top clan players were spending only gold instead of credits for the premium consumables and ammo then you are most likely wrong.

I suspect they're buying prem time with their gold, or prem tanks. With those there's no reason to spend anything but silver on ammo and consumables. But like I said, after a certain point, you can make more gold in this game than you can possibly spend. If you look at the new season, OTTER's already pulling down 10k a night as they pillage England, with more provinces on their to-do list.

16 hours ago, Bavor said:

Having 49% of the clan wars map be tier 6 clan wars does take away from tier 8 and tier 10.  It restricts the number of players who can participate in clan wars at higher tiers.  There was no lack of activity or participation in clan wars 1.0 with tier 10 clan wars.

If you look at the leader boards for the new season, tier 10 is the usual suspects ... OTTER, VILIN, MAHOU, R-7, etc. Tier 8 is clans that were or would've been occasionally able to take and hold land on the 1.0 map, e.g. NARWL, SNRK, PUPEH, etc. Tier 6 is clans like mine that for a variety of reasons never would've been able to play 1.0 or who wouldn't have been able to make much headway if they had ... OM-US, CB, RUSHR, etc. It doesn't "restrict the number" if the clans playing at 6 now wouldn't have been in the mix at all. And I've diplo'ed with enough of the clans on the tier 6 map to have a good sense of what their limitations are in the way of nightly participation and other important factors. If you want to argue that the clan system as it now exists spreads talent too thinly, then I'd be more inclined to agree with you, but at 2500 gold to create one, good luck getting WG to change it.

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10k gold a night sounds like a ton, but think about it being distributed to each clan member. That's 100 gold per day for each person. Over a month that's 3000 gold per player. So the best clan on the map can barely manage to pay for the premium accounts of all of their players. That's far from completely absurd, especially considering probably everyone in otter could do a single weekly skirmish and earn far more than that.

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3 hours ago, meem1029 said:

10k gold a night sounds like a ton, but think about it being distributed to each clan member. That's 100 gold per day for each person. Over a month that's 3000 gold per player. So the best clan on the map can barely manage to pay for the premium accounts of all of their players. That's far from completely absurd, especially considering probably everyone in otter could do a single weekly skirmish and earn far more than that.

OTTER's likely on its way to 20k a night, off past performance and obvious current intentions. And yeah, various OTTER members also play skirmishes. So by player-base standards it swims in gold.

Bear in mind also that those of us not in OTTER don't know their distribution scheme. My clan, HAFR, pays based on making yourself available for CW each night because at our level we like to keep things simple. Other clans have more complicated formulas that take into account stronghold participation, whether you're the caller or an officer, and even your in-battle performance.

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On 2/17/2016 at 2:33 PM, zippy_the_cat said:

You're putting words in my mouth. I never said any such thing.

WOW! way to totally lose track of the context.

I said:

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The system was broken and a grind that was basically a 2nd job. 

Then you said:

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So you're saying participation is a bad thing. 

Obviously you can't keep track of what is being said from post to post.

 

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In fact, I said the tier 10 economy was screwed up. Probably the tier 8 economy was too. At tier 6, however, the maintenance cost was pretty reasonable. Four-five wins a night in SH covered them. And the guys in my clan like doing SH; for many of them, it beats pubbing. Hell, last night after tournament and a multi-hour landing battle to win a province I had guys who were begging to start a SH. Me personally, I can take or leave it; I've got plenty of SH battles under my belt and mainly join when it's the difference between the squad having 7 tanks instead of 6. Keeping that going is why clans have junior officers.

 

Most clans didn't enjoy running strongholds for weeks on end.  That's why you saw the drop off in participation among the top 50 clans and why clans died off.  Both here and on the official forums and several clan forums the members complained about clan wars 2.0 and the need to run stronghold skirmish battles constantly for the maintenance costs.  Your clan loving stronghold skirmish battles seems to be the exception.

 

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Focus-fire and hitpoint conservation are universal. 

You can learn that in a 3 man pub battle platoon.  Its a basic game concept that many training clans teach.  If you don't understand focus fire and hit point conservation you probably need to  watch some YouTube videos or join a training clan that  teaches basic game concepts.  

Clan wars battles tactics and strategies are a lot more complex than than focus fire and conserving hit points.  Tier 6 doesn't teach players what they need to know for higher levels.  Players need to reach the level where they don't need to be micromanaged to be successful, need to know when to talk and not to talk, what info is useful to the caller, not hesitating when the caller says push, and basically being the type of players who can work together as a team without needing the caller to be focused so much on everyone else that he can't use his own tank.  The players need to know what areas are important, where their support and support fire will be coming from, be able to predict where the caller will want them to be based on the enemy team's tactics, etc...

I've played tier 6 clan wars.  Most tier 6 clan wars battles don't teach players the useful skills needed for tier 8 and 10 clan wars to be successful.  90% of the tier 6 clan wars battles I was in were either either against a variation of fastbois or hard camp with heavies and TDs.  That type of battle tactic doesn't teach you the skills needed for the caller to be able to say things like, "Heavies hold the south side of the city, Bob scout hill, and mediums in the center cover Bob."  I've noticed that most of the players who have experience in mostly tier 6 clan wars have to be micromanaged in higher tier clan wars.  In higher tier battles the caller has to say, "Heavies go to E6, E7, E9, and hold those positions. Don't poke out. Bob go to the hill and go to the bush here(caller clicks map square), mediums go to this map square and cover bob on the hill.  Point your guns in Bobs direction to shoot what he spots.  GOD DAMMIT HEAVIES I SAID NOT TO POKE!! STOP POKING!!  Bob where are you going? Bob wrong way! (Bob gets destroyed because he drove the shortest route across open ground and got shot instead of taking a slightly longer route behind hills and cover).  Mediums why aren't you shooting the tanks Bob lit before he died? Why are half our mediums in the city with the heavies?? (Half the mediums weren't in position to cover Bob because they weren't paying attention or didn't understand what cover Bob means).  That's my experience with players who only played tier 6 clan wars.  Any of the tier 6 clan wars clans that have the skills for higher tier clan wars are mostly made up of players who played a lot fo tier 8 and 10 clan wars previously.

I've also called 7/42 battles for a mostly below average group of players when I was in AOD. I can't take all the credit, we had 3 to 4 active callers at a time and we split up the duties by map.  This was long after AOD was a top clan.  They communicated well, followed the callers orders, didn't need to be micromanaged too often.  We worked on clan wars and team battle strategies, communication, appropriate feedback, etc....  In the fall of 2013, we decided to enter the WGLNA gold league qualifier tournament for fun to see how it went.  We beat the first team(Blue Turret's team) and lost 4-5 to the 2nd team.  The team we lost to made it to the quarter finals or semi finals for the tournament.  Both teams we fought had an average recent WN8 that was 900-1000 above our team's average recent WN8.  They weren't great players, however they understood teamwork, listening to the caller, giving appropriate feedback, going to good positions of hold the areas they were told to hold, etc... because the clan still had a good training program as far as feedback after battle, what players need to work on, how to improve teamwork, etc...  They had a lot of the skills needed for higher tier clan wars even though their individual skills weren't superior.  That allowed our team to be successful.

 

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I suspect they're buying prem time with their gold, or prem tanks. With those there's no reason to spend anything but silver on ammo and consumables. But like I said, after a certain point, you can make more gold in this game than you can possibly spend. If you look at the new season, OTTER's already pulling down 10k a night as they pillage England, with more provinces on their to-do list.

You suspect, but didn't say that.

You are basically talking about a top clan on the server.  That's the exception to the rule.  There are only a few clans taking in large amounts of gold and their members are the highest skilled players on the server.  Now matter how you change clan wars, unless you penalize clans for their skill, the top clans will always earn the most.  The skill level of the players and callers in the top 5 clans so high that a top 5 clan will still devastate the top 20-30th ranked clans in most clan wars battles.  The skill gap is that large. Go watch the battles from the last clan league for an example.  The reason they make so much gold is their members are in the top 0.1% to 0.01% of all players on the server.  They are the equivalent of the NFL/NBA/NHL/etc... pros.

You would be shocked to find out how many top 50 clans only pay for their member's premium time or only pay for the premium time of their most active members.

 

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If you look at the leader boards for the new season, tier 10 is the usual suspects ... OTTER, VILIN, MAHOU, R-7, etc. Tier 8 is clans that were or would've been occasionally able to take and hold land on the 1.0 map, e.g. NARWL, SNRK, PUPEH, etc. Tier 6 is clans like mine that for a variety of reasons never would've been able to play 1.0 or who wouldn't have been able to make much headway if they had ... OM-US, CB, RUSHR, etc. It doesn't "restrict the number" if the clans playing at 6 now wouldn't have been in the mix at all. And I've diplo'ed with enough of the clans on the tier 6 map to have a good sense of what their limitations are in the way of nightly participation and other important factors. If you want to argue that the clan system as it now exists spreads talent too thinly, then I'd be more inclined to agree with you, but at 2500 gold to create one, good luck getting WG to change it.

You are entirely wrong there.  Most of the season 1 CW 2.0 and current CW 2.0 tier 8 top clans regularly held land in the pre clan wars 2.0 map.  NARWL was regularly holding land in the lower 48 states.  SNRK and PUPEH were regularly holding land in Canada and Alaska.  Also ADOBE, DICE, DHO-X, UFTS, FGTVE, RS, SLOPE, ANVIL, S-A-R, YOLO, HARM, all regularly held land on the pre clan wars 2.0  map.  I've recently seen all of them on the tier 8 map.  Many of the clans who were active in Canada, Alaska, and Greenland on the Clan Wars 1.0 map are now on the tier 6 and 8 maps.  It seems like you never paid attention to the clan wars 1.0 map at all.

Overall, it seems that you are making up bullshit about the map pre clan wars 2.0 or are completely clueless about who was active on the map and held land in in clan wars 1.0.  The simple fact is the way the clan wars 2.0 map is laid out, most clans who participated in tier 10 battles in clan wars 1.0 can't do that any more because the tier 10 map is so small.  They either play tier 6 or 8 clan wars  or don't participate at all.

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I think the difference in calling is even more striking.  Even going from 10v10 at tier 8 to 15v15 is a huge leap.  With 10 players you have two forces and a scout basically.  Adding 5 more players is a whole different group to control or worry about.

 

7v7 doesn't translate into calling at higher levels in any meaningful way.  It is the main reason I didn't like league since I really enjoy the strategic aspect of 15v15.

 

also the choice is not "tier 6" or "same amount of territory at tier 10".  If you had the same amount of territory currently but all tier 10 that would still be better than what we have right now.

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I actually thought it'd nice if they made divisions like this:

11vs11 or 13vs13 at tier 8

13vs13 or 14vs14 at tier 9

15vs15 at tier 10.

Let's face it, tier 6 offers little diversity and 7vs7 is really bad format. You can't afford do anything unique.

Tier 8 is nice but whatever, they could've toss few tanks more into pool.

I have to mention also that they could link strongholds differently to CW if they are going to roll with that idea.(I mean season 1 was brutal, you had to play both modes, it's very time consuming). They could also roll with some sort of ladder system, where when you win more you get bumped up a tier or something.

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I have to agree with @stagnate, as a caller-in-training tier 6 is 100% useless for anything beyond practicing focus fire, and learning how to dig out a bunch of red O-Is from behind cap. Tier 8 is a much better training ground imo, as with 10 people you can actually do things that aren't all derping one way or camping, while not quite having the depth or complexity of tier 10s. I would still argue clan wars should be 15v15, but 10v10 in strongholds is fine.

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17 hours ago, Panzer9Supertiger said:

I have to agree with @stagnate, as a caller-in-training tier 6 is 100% useless for anything beyond practicing focus fire, and learning how to dig out a bunch of red O-Is from behind cap. Tier 8 is a much better training ground imo, as with 10 people you can actually do things that aren't all derping one way or camping, while not quite having the depth or complexity of tier 10s. I would still argue clan wars should be 15v15, but 10v10 in strongholds is fine.

  If it was a tournament series at tier 6, there can be more than lemming and focus firing.  Depends on the map, mode, numbers of #, peer vehicles allowed in, time on the clock, teammates on your team, tendencies of your opponents' et al.    Typically the winner in a tournament is doing something slightly to greatly different than everyone else.   Sometimes its focus firing with mass, other times it can be a scouting combined with multiple series of trap games and overlapping pre-determined firing zones.   Other times it might be something noticed on a map, no one else has seen before.

  Depends how much a tournament is worth to the caller(s) in question.  Some individuals will spend the time necessary to get it right, if 30k to 100k gold is on the line per individual. 

 

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20 hours ago, Valan said:

  If it was a tournament series at tier 6, there can be more than lemming and focus firing.  Depends on the map, mode, numbers of #, peer vehicles allowed in, time on the clock, teammates on your team, tendencies of your opponents' et al.    Typically the winner in a tournament is doing something slightly to greatly different than everyone else.   Sometimes its focus firing with mass, other times it can be a scouting combined with multiple series of trap games and overlapping pre-determined firing zones.   Other times it might be something noticed on a map, no one else has seen before.

  Depends how much a tournament is worth to the caller(s) in question.  Some individuals will spend the time necessary to get it right, if 30k to 100k gold is on the line per individual. 

 

That's because tourneys regularly have comp rules like no more than 2 from each nation. This forces more nuanced play. Whereas with CW it is any 7 tier 6s. So the optimized comp is fairly straight forward (open map? 7 x T37...) and the optimized strat is usually just smash into them from an unexpected angle and focus your fire.

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