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Pubbie meta - scared of vision?

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Hi guys(and girls :)),

So I'm having some theorycrafting in my head, looking some games in retrospect and whatnot, so I thought I should ask what you think whether this is true or my mind is playing tricks on me.

Basically what I seem to notice is that on few maps where you can dominate by (ab)using vision lately pubbies seem to avoid such places. Few maps come into mind - for example I noticed pubbies avoid Prokhorovka middle and cluster up in corners, city on Lakeville seems to be spot for brave nowdays(I saw quite a few valley pushes recently) and if you have competitive scout on Malinovka, pubbies get stuck in base because they're afraid to cross and get shot - which ultimately leads to defeat.

So what do you guys think? Is this a thing? Have you noticed something similar?

 

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Definitely can agree about Prokhorovka and Lakeville especially, those valley pushes, man... Realy hurts to watch.

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It's a trend that has been growing for, at least, half a year on the NA server, can't tell about the EU.

The pubbies seems to think that "the longer I survive, the best I am" while camping and doing nothing for the team for 7 minutes or so. They seem to lack the comprehension that taking key positions early on, leads to easier, and more frequent, victories.

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the #1 thing pubbies are afraid of is multiple angles of fire :cri:

their brains cannot process, no situational awareness to work with

this is the same reason why they love valley on lakeville and 8 line on abbey etc

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5 minutes ago, zapyoug said:

the #1 thing pubbies are afraid of is multiple angles of fire :cri:

their brains cannot process

this is the same reason why they love valley on lakeville and 8 line on abbey etc

And the same reason why WG reworked most maps into corridors, so pubbies' two brain cells could cope with it. As for the OP question. Most certainly noticeable, they just sit in the worst fucking spots in vision maps because they don't want to get spotted.

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People don't learn how to play this game any more, they watch and try to reproduce. They don't know why and how or for what reason...

This decline has been going on for about 2 years now. A lot of knowledge, skill, leadership has been lost... or grouped together in the better clans, preventing other clans from getting better and slowly declining...

The game has matured for the skilled players, and is declining with every terrible decision WG makes (or postpones) concerning clan wars and how the purples are treated.

For the ignorant mass it doesn't matter, they are happy with their atrocious performance. The game will survive with or without us... 

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Pubbies are 99% of the game like it or not, they make up most of your team and the enemies. Expecting them to do things that you would do is foolish, you're better than them because you know things they don't know, are capable of understand the complex flow of battle where they cannot, and have eyeballs with which to see the plethora of information available on the minimap, which they clearly cannot afford. Pubbies are like wild animals, you observe and use your higher intelligence to make the most out of whatever dumb ass things they happen to do, but you don't rely on them to do something that they aren't already showing you they are capable of doing. 

 

Adapt, or die (or complain).

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3 hours ago, DrJ_Zoidberg said:

-snip-

Adapt, or die (or complain).

Nah man, I'm not bitching(I'd post in venting thread if I was) it was more of observation of recent meta shift due to low knowledge of general player base.

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There is some justification to being afraid of vision though.  If you are in a heavy, in your mind that should make you superior to a lower tier light tank - and on Karkov or Himmelsdorf, you generally are.  Suddenly you find yourself on Malinovka in your IS-6 and you are getting wrecked by a T37 you never get to see.  We've all been on both ends of this and lets face it, getting melted by an invisible E-25 is infuriating.

For a lot of WOT players, this results in an addiction to humping rocks so you only have to use 1/2 your turret traverse.  Arty only adds to this metagame by 'discouraging camping'.  Much like cave men and fire - I think the day you understand the value of vision instead of fearing it, is the day you take a step from being a 'pubbie' to being a player.  

(Or you just yolo420blazeit fuck vision and ROLL BITCHES like me . . . )

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Well, speaking from personal experience, I used to not be afraid of vision at all, and tried to use positions where I saw purple players in.

I promptly died horribly because I was a shitter, it feels like you get crossfired from many of these positions (lakeville middle for example).

Then I switched my perspective; it's not that enemies have a lot of directions from which they can shoot you, it's that you have a lot of different directions in which you can farm your damage.

And I started using view range skills and equipment :)

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Breaking vision requires teamwork something that rarely happens in pub games.

Plus arty, on maps like Malinovka and Prohk heavies just get chewed up by invisible tanks they can't spot and their HP melted away by artillery, thus players do the only thing they can think off, camp and not get spotted.

If you go hill on Prohk and no one is spotting middle then you are screwed and vice versa, most pubbies pre-empt the risk and just don't bother instead huddling together on the 1 line then hoping a light or medium will spot for them.

it's why we shouldn't have maps of extremes and more balanced maps where bad players can go brawl head on if they want, but the outcome doesn't decide the whole game and they shouldn't be prtoected completely from side shots. But at the same time you should have maps just decided by vision and whether your light knows what he's doing because you get situations where half your team is too scared to move anywhere as they will get screwed by arty and hidden tanks.

 

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On 2/21/2016 at 9:50 AM, Zinn said:

However, mechanically, the camping move makes sense for the pubbie, particularly when it's a new player and they don't know the maps or the general plays. You don't get artied, you get free damage and kills and you get a chance to be the hero of the game. If your teammates win and you don't contribute much, that's okay because you were protecting the cap circle, another way the enemies might win. If your teammates crumble and die vs overwhelming numbers, they're just bad and not doing their jobs because they should know you're waiting in base to kill off the wounded tanks. It's just part of the tactics that they die a valiant death so you can secure the win, a common videogame move in other genres

@FrankyMcShankypointed me to this post and it is so spot on (no pun intended).

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Let me provide some insights into being a noob, since apparently, once you reach purple, it's all forgotten and everyone is a 2 brain-cell, mouth-breathing, can't-count-their-balls-and-get-the-same-answer-twice, Westboro Baptist church, vote-for-Trump, moron. 

Note: I'm a purple in other games past and present (TF2, DAOC, Tribes, etc) so I know high level play. I've played and called on comp teams. In other words, I get it. I've been in your position in other games, just not in WoT, yet. 

1. The Vision mechanic makes sense on paper, but applying it in-game is something entirely different. I can't tell you how many time's I've been shot by invisible tanks, since I don't know every inch of the map and don't realize a spot is a bad spot until I've been there. I'm learning, but mostly by trying to watch videos that discuss maps and personal experience. I can't mimic what they do in videos, until I learn the WHY behind going to a particular spot. 

2. Expert knowledge of maps and tanks is a HUGE advantage. I know some of this information, but there is still much to learn for me, even after 2K battles. Until I learn this, I will always be at a disadvantage, so playing conservatively makes sense. Not camping for 7 mins in the back, but also not rushing out early to "good spots" makes sense for players like me, since we likely don't have the skill in this game to hold that spot, use it correctly, NOT get rekt by better players that know a spot that gives them a shooting angle on me, etc. As we get better, we start moving to those spots, but how some players that literally know everything can't understand this, I'll never know.  

3. Not every noob is a mouth-breathing, moronic shitter. Some of us are actually trying to learn the game, despite the seemingly ubiquitous shitheads in chat and in the community. 

So I guess I'm just a bit confused. 

All purples in this game just started as purple. Zero learning curve? Perfect play, the minute the game was installed?Or maybe they all figured it out within 5-10 games?

Maybe they spent countless hours memorizing the wiki prior to even installing and had players like Taugrim show up at their houses and work out the strats for every sq. km of each and every map?  

Because I don't have any of that. What I do have is a brain, that I'm trying to fill with information and practice applying that information in-game and I get to put up with asshats daily that feel that anyone less than purple should stick to T1 battles until they go purple, then start working up the lines. 

I do understand that noobs can wreck a game, but honestly, how else does anyone to learn?  

What's really amusing/frustrating to me is the players talking about the game slowly declining, yet treat people like it's a fucking crime to be new to a game. 

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Well, it's not as if WG makes it easy to learn this game as a beginner.  One really basic tutorial and out to the wolves you go.  Although, I guess they have tried to make it more beginner friendly with recent changes.  When I first started playing, I couldn't even figure out how to get into a battle. 

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39 minutes ago, SonicAnatidae said:

Let me provide some insights into being a noob, since apparently, once you reach purple, it's all forgotten and everyone is a 2 brain-cell, mouth-breathing, can't-count-their-balls-and-get-the-same-answer-twice, Westboro Baptist church, vote-for-Trump, moron. 

Note: I'm a purple in other games past and present (TF2, DAOC, Tribes, etc) so I know high level play. I've played and called on comp teams. In other words, I get it. I've been in your position in other games, just not in WoT, yet. 

1. The Vision mechanic makes sense on paper, but applying it in-game is something entirely different. I can't tell you how many time's I've been shot by invisible tanks, since I don't know every inch of the map and don't realize a spot is a bad spot until I've been there. I'm learning, but mostly by trying to watch videos that discuss maps and personal experience. I can't mimic what they do in videos, until I learn the WHY behind going to a particular spot. 

2. Expert knowledge of maps and tanks is a HUGE advantage. I know some of this information, but there is still much to learn for me, even after 2K battles. Until I learn this, I will always be at a disadvantage, so playing conservatively makes sense. Not camping for 7 mins in the back, but also not rushing out early to "good spots" makes sense for players like me, since we likely don't have the skill in this game to hold that spot, use it correctly, NOT get rekt by better players that know a spot that gives them a shooting angle on me, etc. As we get better, we start moving to those spots, but how some players that literally know everything can't understand this, I'll never know.  

3. Not every noob is a mouth-breathing, moronic shitter. Some of us are actually trying to learn the game, despite the seemingly ubiquitous shitheads in chat and in the community. 

So I guess I'm just a bit confused. 

All purples in this game just started as purple. Zero learning curve? Perfect play, the minute the game was installed?Or maybe they all figured it out within 5-10 games?

Maybe they spent countless hours memorizing the wiki prior to even installing and had players like Taugrim show up at their houses and work out the strats for every sq. km of each and every map?  

Because I don't have any of that. What I do have is a brain, that I'm trying to fill with information and practice applying that information in-game and I get to put up with asshats daily that feel that anyone less than purple should stick to T1 battles until they go purple, then start working up the lines. 

I do understand that noobs can wreck a game, but honestly, how else does anyone to learn?  

What's really amusing/frustrating to me is the players talking about the game slowly declining, yet treat people like it's a fucking crime to be new to a game. 

Admittedly, the spotting system is very difficult to grasp for most people, as it is just so unrealistic. If you see a tank in real life, you'll keep seeing it until it goes out of line of sight. However, in WoT, a tank can go unspotted while in your line of sight lol. Sometimes all he has to do is to stop moving...

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59 minutes ago, Serene_Potato said:

Admittedly, the spotting system is very difficult to grasp for most people, as it is just so unrealistic. If you see a tank in real life, you'll keep seeing it until it goes out of line of sight. However, in WoT, a tank can go unspotted while in your line of sight lol. Sometimes all he has to do is to stop moving...

This is something WG really need to fix. Counter-intuitive mechanics are a big hurdle for newer players to get over.

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As a noob, I can live with the counter-intuitive nature of it, if some of the community would just take 2 giant steps off my nutsack while I'm learning.. ;)

To be clear, there are some fantastic people in the WoT community. Folks that give of their time to teach others and people like me genuinely appreciate it. It's how I handle education when I'm purple. 

 

It's the asshats that provide constructive criticism like "How did the T32 player get so bad", "Fuggin N00bs" or my favorite "Just Uninstall, moron", because they apparently never needed to learn. They just dropped in purple and have been WTFPWNING @ life since..  :look:

 

 

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As a relative newcomer myself, I think I'll also put in my two cents on the subject.

Firstly, I have to agree with the people who complain about the vision mechanics. Not only is the system often counter-intuitive and quirky, absolutely nothing is done by the game to introduce newcomers even to its very basics. Yes, I sat into bushes at the very beginning instead of getting behind them, simply because that seemed to be the logical choice and there was nothing in the game itself that suggested otherwise. Just look at Malinovka in a low tier match to see how prevalent this is. And this is not mentioning fake bushes and über spotting bushes.

But even as I realized the importance of vision and proceeded to learn its fundamentals, it did not, and still does not mean I can now perfectly use, let alone abuse it. There's just so much dependent on your choice of vehicle, your crew skills and your loadout. Let's take Prokhorovka in a heavy tank. Nowadays, I mainly play US heavies (T29/T32/T34), which are coincidentally some of the most suited among heavies for this map for reasons I need not explain. Still, even with these particularly Prok-compatible tanks, I often just end up dying early if I go mid. Let's discount for a second the fact even one artillery, if present, will notice the juicy target in the middle of nowhere, making stopping to peek out and spot something a massive folly; even then, even with these tanks, vision is not something I can make much use of. With a base VR of 360, the T34 is the one that undoubtedly falls short in this game immediately. Next up, my T29 has optics and my crew has recon and situational awareness at about 80+%, yet this still only amounts to around 440m, certainly not enough to spot anything camping the railway or the end of the 2 line, and insufficient to reliably spot from the hill to the middle and vice-a-versa. It is only my T32, with optics, recon+sitaw and food, that gets 490+ VR and actually make useful spotting moves on this map, at the cost of foregoing the advantages vents would have to offer in a brawling situation.

Conclusion? Even if you are the undisputed master of vision mechanics, you need to invest hundreds of thousands of credits and crew experience to actually get a chance at abusing vision mechanics. That's not something someone who's new to the game has the resources for. I've been grinding these 3 for months, but my crews still haven't finished their second skill, which may either be a testament of my substandard skills (in all honesty, though, I don't think I'm particularly terrible at these tanks), or to the huge investment it requires to develop your crews (again, the importance of which is barely suggested by the game itself to newcomers). And even if you do have a great crew and credits to spare, if your tank of choice for today is a blind IS-3 with 350 base VR, you won't be commanding the plains of Prok anytime soon. Is it therefore surprising that a large amount of players brandishing 50 or 75% crews in tanks ill-suited for vision warfare resort to bushkemp on maps whose very essence is vision? Yes, sitting in a bush is boring and does not make much sense, but it sure beats getting one shot by balanced SPGs focusing you in the middle of the map, or getting sniped by a well-camouflaged med every time you poke. You see, there are actually quite a lot of people who are not driving Russian hovertanks with Sauron's eye built-in and crewed by an elite commando of SEALs. Of course, gameplay suffers as a consequence; some of my most drawn-out, nerve-racking and insanely boring matches were played either on Prokhorovka or on Malinovka.

TL;DR nobody is telling noobs that vision is important and that tanks don't just appear and disappear at the whiz of some wizard's wand. But even if they come to realize it and learn it, they still need to make a huge XP/creds investment to actually make a difference and if their fav tank has shit base VR, even that is useless. Also Malinovka and Prokhorovka games are too often just cancer.

Also sorry about this wall of text :/

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WG gave up on trying to teach vision when they removed Malinovka and Province from low tier games.  Now noobs are taught nothing but how to race around small maps with autocannons blasting each other at point blank range.  Then they hit tier 3 and everything changes.  Honestly, you have no way of really understanding vision until you get a crew with sixth sense.  They really should start you out with one good crew with it. 

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1 minute ago, lt_lolcat said:

WG gave up on trying to teach vision when they removed Malinovka and Province from low tier games.  Now noobs are taught nothing but how to race around small maps with autocannons blasting each other at point blank range.  Then they hit tier 3 and everything changes.  Honestly, you have no way of really understanding vision until you get a crew with sixth sense.  They really should start you out with one good crew with it. 

Honestly I doubt any of those maps were useful for teaching actual vision mechanics. If anything, people just drove to the nearest bush and sat in the middle of it, and the whole game degenerated into a stalemate, especially on Province where quite often everybody was just waiting for the other side to make a move. Vision maps without proper information on what vision actually is and how it works seem to send newcomers into automatic bushkemp failover mode.

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58 minutes ago, lt_lolcat said:

WG gave up on trying to teach vision when they removed Malinovka and Province from low tier games.  Now noobs are taught nothing but how to race around small maps with autocannons blasting each other at point blank range.  Then they hit tier 3 and everything changes.  Honestly, you have no way of really understanding vision until you get a crew with sixth sense.  They really should start you out with one good crew with it. 

Or even better, go the WOT-Console/AW route and have automatic sixth sense.

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