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Reluctor

Vertical Stabalizers

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14 minutes ago, Wanderjar said:

the source spreadsheet/data for the chart. yeah I could probably go look up the values and spend 2 hours putting it on a spreadsheet myself then making a pretty pivot table from it but if someone's got the data already, so much the better

Ask @StranaMechty.

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oh dear glorious Strana, whose mere name we pubbies are deeply unworthy to say, please find it within your deep and merciful heart to bestow upon us the spreadsheet of glorious data. So that our uncomprehending tomato eyes may be opened and awakened to the true realities of the game, which you are so clearly a master of!

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3 hours ago, Wanderjar said:

oh dear glorious Strana, whose mere name we pubbies are deeply unworthy to say, please find it within your deep and merciful heart to bestow upon us the spreadsheet of glorious data. So that our uncomprehending tomato eyes may be opened and awakened to the true realities of the game, which you are so clearly a master of!

That's weird, please don't do that.

Anyway, there isn't really any "data", it's abstracted to be tank-agnostic, which is why the aim time is a nebulous 0 (start) to 1 (finish). The actual amount of time that's going to elapse will vary based on what tank you're using and some other fiddly bits that I don't fully know how to calculate (how the four bloom factors stack on one another for any given situation). You can see the actual source spreadsheet here.

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5 minutes ago, StranaMechty said:

That's weird, please don't do that

I'm so sorry I offended you, oh purplest of warriors. I shall go administer the 7 cuts of dishonor right now in order to appease your mighty personage and prevent your ire form being raised in a most unsatisfactory manner! (my CO hates me for doing this to him too)

 

 

10 minutes ago, StranaMechty said:

The actual amount of time that's going to elapse will vary based on what tank you're using and some other fiddly bits that I don't fully know how to calculate (how the four bloom factors stack on one another for any given situation).

it's cool. I do. I'll give you the stuff if you want so you can run it on your own.

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Accuracy * sqrt((1+((disp hull traverse^2)+(moving traverse^2)+(turret traverse^2)) ))

Or in Spreadsheet form:
=A2*SQRT((1+B2^2+C2^2+D2^2))

Formula courtesy of 8_Hussars and Richard Nixon

an example: not tank agnostic at all :P T6 SH tanks
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TqvlcnQIdPpAzy3X0OK4lxdNjWoqo9ejcdRqu_HqIuc/edit#gid=1513247591

It's interesting that at the .27 time mark the vents/GLD numbers cross up. suggesting that tanks with tight aimtimes a GLD is a waste (duh i know) and that vents are actually more effective for accuracy. For clarification: is that in 10th of a second? or just a straight 0-1 scale? because a 2.7 sec aimtime is real and knowing that specific line could reveal some interesting results.

Edited by Wanderjar
dont want to post 9 times...

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So, after reading all of this, the real question is optics or vents or GLD with the constant vert stab / rammer on anything that can equip them?
If that is the case then how do i decide on that last slot? For instance the T32 is my favorite tank. It has 400 view range, which is marginally improved with vents. I have been debating putting optics on it instead so that I can spot my own targets towards the end of a match since my lights always yolo. Is that an acceptable situation or should I stick to the brawling equipment?

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Vents are underrated. Just considering firepower, they improve reload time, base accuracy (which multiplies bloom) and aimtime, with the aimtime bonus often counting double in high-bloom cases. On top of that, you get all the mobility/view range/whatever bonuses.

Other than Vstab > GLD (given a realistic range of situations), everything is arguable.

 

Edit 1: Vents are not underrated by many people on WoTLabs, apparently.

Edit 2: That graph on page 1 is totally wrong btw. You can tell by the straight lines. This one is nearly correct, at least for low initial bloom:

LiS2R11.jpg

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yeah i was reviewing the sheet and the values are a straight iso. I was literally making the corrections to my copy of it when i saw this reply. Many thanks Nixon!

 

So, after reading all of this, the real question is optics or vents or GLD with the constant vert stab / rammer on anything that can equip them?
If that is the case then how do i decide on that last slot? For instance the T32 is my favorite tank. It has 400 view range, which is marginally improved with vents. I have been debating putting optics on it instead so that I can spot my own targets towards the end of a match since my lights always yolo. Is that an acceptable situation or should I stick to the brawling equipment?

The consensus seems to be Vstab on anything that can have it, rammer on everything, Vents for 3rd.
Vstab/rammer/vents trump all except in a few very special circumstances. 
GLD/vents/optics or rammer otherwise it seems. 

Just trying to get a hard number on where the GLD/vstab efficiency line is actually

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I would be interested in seeing how vents compare to GLD in terms of actual aim time. I would think that there is some threshold aim time after which GLD is better, but wonder what that is? Example of IS-3, rammer+stabs but are vents or GLD better for third if you just want to improve gun handling? I have been using both, at the moment have vents. At least I can't tell huge difference between two. 

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10 hours ago, HS5 said:

I would be interested in seeing how vents compare to GLD in terms of actual aim time. I would think that there is some threshold aim time after which GLD is better, but wonder what that is?

Well, aim time's a false comparison. What you want to consider is accuracy vs time. GLD's still around twice as good as vents for pure gun handling, but vents give you all the other bonuses too.

Last time I checked, Tank Inspector claimed that crew skill modifies bloom as well as aim time, but this isn't correct.

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As I see it, the 20% reduction to bloom is way OP compared to GLD's 10% to aim time, or vents' 5% to crew skill (which is really more like a 2.5% actual change in numbers). Now, if your goal was just to focus on gun handling exclusively, you could always use all three together. But the only situation where that makes sense is one where a rammer just isn't available (autoloaders) and also optics just isn't necessary (brawling meta OP).

The case could be made that vents is more valuable than the laying drive or perhaps even optics (under the right circumstances), but at that point we're splitting hairs. If only we had five equipment slots, then we'd be able to equip for all situations and WG would get more of our money. Win-win.

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1 hour ago, Mikosah said:

As I see it, the 20% reduction to bloom is way OP compared to GLD's 10% to aim time, or vents' 5% to crew skill (which is really more like a 2.5% actual change in numbers).

Yeah, unless you have a tank with extremely low bloom. I think Vstab would be more balanced if it worked as the wiki used to claim: Only working for move & traverse bloom, not firing or turret traverse.

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4 minutes ago, RichardNixon said:

Yeah, unless you have a tank with extremely low bloom. I think Vstab would be more balanced if it worked as the wiki used to claim: Only working for move & traverse bloom, not firing or turret traverse.

I'm curious - does firing bloom mean anything at all? I know it's a big deal on autoloaders and some lower tier guns (the T-34/Churchill III's 57mm is the prime suspect) but I cant imagine any amount of after-fire bloom still influencing accuracy by the time the next shell is loaded. Seems almost aesthetic.

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1 minute ago, Rexxie said:

I'm curious - does firing bloom mean anything at all? I know it's a big deal on autoloaders and some lower tier guns (the T-34/Churchill III's 57mm is the prime suspect) but I cant imagine any amount of after-fire bloom still influencing accuracy by the time the next shell is loaded. Seems almost aesthetic.

At the tiers where you can equip Vstab, it's just autoloaders. Otherwise, firing bloom does stack with other bloom sources, but situations where that would cause bloom to out-last reload time will be rare at best.

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So with the new LeKpz M 41 90mm, what is the optimal equipment load out? While most people will automatically say Vert / Vents / Optics, take into account that this tank can equip a rammer.

Are the optics more important than rammer or vents? 
If so does that change depending on the crew? (IE having sit awareness and recon perks)

Thanks for allowing me to beat a dead horse :)

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1 hour ago, Reluctor said:

So with the new LeKpz M 41 90mm, what is the optimal equipment load out? While most people will automatically say Vert / Vents / Optics, take into account that this tank can equip a rammer.

Are the optics more important than rammer or vents? 
If so does that change depending on the crew? (IE having sit awareness and recon perks)

Thanks for allowing me to beat a dead horse :)

Actually, no they won't. Rammer and VStab are, generally speaking, the best two pieces of equipment you can mount.

Take Rammer / VStab / Optics, and train Situational Awareness for that 3% (5%?) extra VR boost. It will bump you up from 440m to 445m, which is cap, and this is enough. The tank has enough ammo, so spam away with Rammer!

I have not yet played a tank which does not want to mount a VStab (although others have said T22, E50 are some candidates). However, you don't want to mount a Rammer on tanks that have a faster reload than their aiming time if they're completely stationary: specifically, the M7 and the Crusader come to mind. Higher tier tanks with manageable blooms do not tend to have this problem.

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So my question here is, with the max being 445 Meters, why do I need optics on a tank with 400 base in the first place?

If it has 400, and it gets 2.5% from vents and 5% from sit awareness and maybe another 3% from recon, then that is the 10% from optics by itself. 
10% of 400 is 40 so that puts it right at 440 meters right?

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25 minutes ago, Reluctor said:

So my question here is, with the max being 445 Meters, why do I need optics on a tank with 400 base in the first place?

If it has 400, and it gets 2.5% from vents and 5% from sit awareness and maybe another 3% from recon, then that is the 10% from optics by itself. 
10% of 400 is 40 so that puts it right at 440 meters right?

The maximum higher than 445m can burn through camo.  The net maximum is 445but if you have 500m that will offset 55m of camo.

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5 hours ago, Reluctor said:

So I should aim for 500m view range not 450?

NOTE: Max spotting distance is 445m and minimum is 50m

The basic spotting relationship is "Your View Range - Target Camo modifiers"

Camo Modifiers: tank value, moving/still, firing/non-firing, camo paint, crew skill, and environmental camo

Basic Spotting Range = View Range - (View Range * Target Camo rating)

Basic Examples:
1 - View range is 400m and target's camo modifier is 25%.  (400 - (400*.25))  You spot target at 300m

2 - View range is 445m and target's camo modifier is 25%.  (445 - (445*.25))  You spot enemy at 334m

3 - View range is 500m and target's camo modifier is 25%.  (500 - (500*.25))  You spot enemy at 375m

How much view range you need/want is a function of playstyle, risk/reward, and trade offs to achieve it.  As noted the benefits of optics (or enhanced view range) can be achieved through view range skills, BIA, vents, and running food traded off with credit costs, other skills, and different equipment.  Nearing the area of diminishing returns is where the optics/vents discussions trend but it comes down to economics, crew skills, and preference.

 

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For me I always go vents instead of EGLD in most cases.  Your gun starts out more accurate with vents then EGLD, and at the point in time where EGLD has more total effect on accuracy then Vents I probably fired already.  The more you shoot without being fully aimed in the better vents are.

Nixon is correct, the important chart is accuracy vs time.  I haven't seen it anywhere, but Vstabs and vents have to be the winner.

 

 

Optics is always useful, but it diminishes when you start stacking BIA, view range skills and consumables, then add vents.  At the point where it matters (higher tiers) you are going against better players who know how to abuse camo system, you wont see them if they do not want to be seen.  Its more important to be able to snap off more accurate shots with minimal exposure then to spot them a little farther.

 

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On 4/2/2016 at 5:23 PM, Mikosah said:

As I see it, the 20% reduction to bloom is way OP compared to GLD's 10% to aim time, or vents' 5% to crew skill (which is really more like a 2.5% actual change in numbers). Now, if your goal was just to focus on gun handling exclusively, you could always use all three together. But the only situation where that makes sense is one where a rammer just isn't available (autoloaders) and also optics just isn't necessary (brawling meta OP).

Allow me to provide a counterargument to this point. 

T49.

Sure, you can throw a rammer on it... but that tank is my one exception to the "always a rammer if possible" rule.  I definitely need the better gun handling way more than I need a 2 second shorter reload.

 

Anyways, back to the actual discussion at hand, I'm in the "always vert-stab, always rammer if possible" camp (barring the aforementioned exception, of course), but my third choice usually depends on the class of tank; so far my trend seems to be optics on meds and lights, Vents on heavies (though since I've only had the IS-3 and the T-10 so far, that doesn't really say much since both have p gud gun handling in my experience).  Once I get to the IS-7, I'm probably going to drop the vents for a GLD since I hear the gun handling on that is worlds apart from the likes of the T-10, but if I find that it's not helping me appreciably then I'd probably switch it back to vents

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19 hours ago, PlanetaryGenocide said:

 Once I get to the IS-7, I'm probably going to drop the vents for a GLD since I hear the gun handling on that is worlds apart from the likes of the T-10, but if I find that it's not helping me appreciably then I'd probably switch it back to vents

I use vents in IS-7. The gun is no sniper but as the IS-7 role is close range brawler it hits what it hits if it hits without much aiming. Vents give it some more mobility, view range and DPM. To me that 3,1 second aim time doesn´t seem at all problematic to be mitigated with EGLD.

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