Dawn of War III

[Deusmortis 4,618]

On 5/3/2016 at 10:38 AM, Trobs said:

Just announced by Relic. I don't even care what they change, I want it.

Wait, I can get this with boring old money?  No need to sacrifice a thousand souls to the Golden Throne?

On 5/3/2016 at 0:33 PM, lt_lolcat said:

still not as cool as the original trailer

 

The first time I watched that, I swear it lasted 45 minutes.  It's rare to see something grasp so many aspects of its source material so perfectly.  The back and forth, the brutality, fleeting moments of glory and despair, the final act of desperate heroism... and the utter triviality of the struggle.

[Trobs 670]

5 hours ago, Deusmortis said:

Wait, I can get this with boring old money?  No need to sacrifice a thousand souls to the Golden Throne?

Believe it or not, oh god yes.

[GloatingSwine 299]

On 5/5/2016 at 6:00 AM, OOPMan said:

It's the Dark Souls mentality of gaming at work. Because everything is made better by masochistic difficulty combined with unforgiving control systems, amirite?

Dark Souls isn't even that inaccessable because combat is slow and based on planning not reflexes, it's just that the internet blows it out of proportion with all the "git gud" memes (okay and the way stats work is poorly explained).

 

Starcraft 2 is, barring compstomping in campaign, far more inaccessable because of the required levels of micro and the fact that your base needs permanent attention because although there is a queue system for unit building you're bad if you use it, and the fact that if there's a single obvious thing to do your units won't do it by themselves.  (Whereas in DoW/CoH they will eg. seek cover for themselves and certain abilities are automatic not triggered)

Like it took until Heart of the Swarm before you could set your drones to go and mine minerals immediately on building, which is what you want 99% of all drones ever to do and the AI would automatically go to an unoccupied patch when told "mine minerals" rather than going to the specific one ordered and then having to relocate (it used to be a significant advantage at high level play if you had enough micro skill to manually direct your drones to different patches in the first seconds of the game because you got your first unit out faster).  It also took until then for them to give you a non-pointless number of starting drones because it's so important to have the first minute of the game always be "watch minerals increase who can tap S fastest after it reaches 50".

 

Dave Sirlin (former tournament Street Fighter player, now game designer) has an interesting discussion about SC2 here: http://www.sirlin.net/posts/sirlin-on-game-design-ep-13-starcraft-2

 

The previous Dawn of War games were much more accessable than Starcraft has ever been, with less micro, more explicit guidance that map control is good (because you have to go and get strategic points), and once they'd smoothed out the hard counter nature with the first few expansions, more forgiving army construction (esp. Spess Mehreens and METAL BOXES Chaos who have amazingly solid basic troops).

 

I mean they were imba as fuck and only got more so as time went on (especially new races, lol vanilla DC with infinite necrons and 3x broadsides in a squad), but they were accessable.

[OOPMan 1,266]

@GloatingSwine I was mainly responding to @Kuroialty griping about the game being accessible. Because despite what you say Dark Souls is still pretty inaccessible for most people. I certainly couldn't get into it, although maybe it's because my idea of a third-person game is Warhammer: Space Marine or Rise of the Tomb Raider

 

[GloatingSwine 299]

I think there's a tendency in gaming communities to regard "accessable" as a dirty word, which isn't always necessarily wrong because a lot of developers will say it when they mean "make game more like other more popular games", but the only other more popular RTS at all is Starcraft and as noted, that's about as accessable as a bank vault.

 

I mean they could make the game "more accessable" by making it more like LoL because that's the biggest example of an RTS-like interface in popular gaming culture but they basically already did that with DoW2 anyway. (DoW2 is a single player MOBA, really.  Driven by hero units, waves of expendable mooks, largely based on dropping abilities at the right time, the whole nine yards)

[Kuroialty 448]

23 hours ago, GloatingSwine said:

Starcraft 2 is, barring compstomping in campaign, far more inaccessable because of the required levels of micro and the fact that your base needs permanent attention because although there is a queue system for unit building you're bad if you use it, and the fact that if there's a single obvious thing to do your units won't do it by themselves.  (Whereas in DoW/CoH they will eg. seek cover for themselves and certain abilities are automatic not triggered)

Like it took until Heart of the Swarm before you could set your drones to go and mine minerals immediately on building, which is what you want 99% of all drones ever to do and the AI would automatically go to an unoccupied patch when told "mine minerals" rather than going to the specific one ordered and then having to relocate (it used to be a significant advantage at high level play if you had enough micro skill to manually direct your drones to different patches in the first seconds of the game because you got your first unit out faster).  It also took until then for them to give you a non-pointless number of starting drones because it's so important to have the first minute of the game always be "watch minerals increase who can tap S fastest after it reaches 50".

Dave Sirlin (former tournament Street Fighter player, now game designer) has an interesting discussion about SC2 here: http://www.sirlin.net/posts/sirlin-on-game-design-ep-13-starcraft-2

I listened to Sirlin's discussion a few weeks ago and wrote a response to it elsewhere that I wish I had saved.  The gist of it is that he thinks that many things which, to him, a player obviously wants to do should be automated.  He provides one good example of workers automatically gathering resources after being produced, which was done in the latest expansion.  He then attempts to extend this idea to a bunch of other parts of the game as if they are just as obvious and simple as that example.  No, you don't want your queens to automatically inject larva at the hatchery when it's on cooldown, because that energy could have been used to infuse an important unit or building that just came under attack from a drop or push that came just after the automatic action.  No, you don't want your immortals to pop their shield when they come under attack or according to some threshold of damage, because then your opponent dips in quick to pop their shields and comes back when it's down.  No, you don't want your orbitals to put down mules whenever they have the energy because the DT drop that just showed up in your base isn't going to scan itself.  No, you don't want your swarm hosts to produce locusts whenever they cool down, because there is such a thing as attacking with your entire force at once and I'm sure you would rather do that on your own timing when you find an opening in the enemy's defenses rather than on your swarm hosts' own internal clocks.  Et cetera.

But let's try to address this base and unit ability micromanagement issue and say we have a new RTS come out with a plethora of advanced automation tools, plenty of dials and bars you can manage to have certain units in certain compositions be produced, certain upgrades be produced, various resources collected at a certain ratio, reserves for doing extra things, and so on.  Does this system of many dials and switches sound accessible to you?  It doesn't sound that way to me.  It doesn't even solve the micromanagement problem because instead of hotkeying buildings and units to produce and do stuff, you're hotkeying and adjusting levels and knobs according to changes in your production and incoming pressure.

But let's say that even that works out somehow.  Now you have all of this freed up APM that you aren't spending on watching base production.  What happens to it?  There are one of two scenarios.  The first is that the APM goes towards micromanaging something else, which means that the micromanagement has been merely shifted, not removed.  The second is that it has absolutely nowhere to go, which is another way of saying that players who have an abundance in attention and action do not have a way to use these skills to demonstrate themselves as being better players, which means they may as well be playing something more accommodating of their ability.  Remember Grey Goo?  Neither does anyone else.  That's because it had slow gameplay and minimal micromanagement.  Casuals won't play it because it's too boring.  Competitive players don't touch it because there are better outlets to show off their skills and grow as a player.  And without a brand name, which is the only reason any of you are even thinking about playing this game, this new IP doesn't have an established following to back it.  All-in-all, it's dead and nobody cares.

In short, Sirlin is a fucking moron who doesn't understand RTS and should stick with developing his fighting game made by casuals, for casuals.

12 hours ago, GloatingSwine said:

I think there's a tendency in gaming communities to regard "accessable" as a dirty word, which isn't always necessarily wrong because a lot of developers will say it when they mean "make game more like other more popular games", but the only other more popular RTS at all is Starcraft and as noted, that's about as accessable as a bank vault.

I mean they could make the game "more accessable" by making it more like LoL because that's the biggest example of an RTS-like interface in popular gaming culture but they basically already did that with DoW2 anyway. (DoW2 is a single player MOBA, really.  Driven by hero units, waves of expendable mooks, largely based on dropping abilities at the right time, the whole nine yards)

Once again, I have to recommend that if you haven't read this article on the birth of Dota as a genre, you absolutely should, and you should even read the entire book.

Warcraft III was an RTS that focused around controlling a few hero units with minimal base micromanagement, a far more accessible setup than most (if not all) RTS games of the day.  Even that wasn't simple enough for a large enough portion of the playerbase that a mod focused around controlling a single unit became more popular than the base game and birthed an entirely new genre of filth, to which WoT belongs in part.  People don't want to play an accessible RTS (see Grey Goo), and even if they did, they would probably find a game like LoL more appealing to them anyways.  The popularity of those games should be enough that any developer would give serious pause to make a game remotely like one that gave way to them.  Of course, if they want to make a competitive, demanding RTS, then they have to compete with SC2, and even though that title still has some popularity, it's arguably all just blizzdrones or koreans.  Nobody has released a moderately strong RTS lately that has seen real financial success (though Age of Empires 2 still gets eyes somehow), and the next one like that won't be DoW 3.

[OOPMan 1,266]

4 hours ago, Kuroialty said:

Remember Grey Goo?  Neither does anyone else.  That's because it had slow gameplay and minimal micromanagement.  Casuals won't play it because it's too boring.  Competitive players don't touch it because there are better outlets to show off their skills and grow as a player.  And without a brand name, which is the only reason any of you are even thinking about playing this game, this new IP doesn't have an established following to back it.  All-in-all, it's dead and nobody cares.

And here I was thinking I'd play Dawn of War 3 because it could be fun...

[megaflex4000 148]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure "Dawn of War" is the important part of the brand, not "Warhammer". Being the third game in a series with two good and highly popular games gets you more hype than featuring a specific brand of space mans.

You don't hear a lot of people longing for a new Mark of Chaos or Fire Warrior.

[crapcannon 67]

Loved DoW and ranked 1v1 automatch back in the day. Played some of the best players back then. (Before Iron Lore broke it with there fucked up patch!)

I remember all the OP shit too (pre nerf):
DoW: Warp Spiders within 30 fucking seconds into the game. The only counter was spamming ork wartrax.
DoW Winter Assault: OP Commissar attached to Imperial Guard squad made squad invincible then just raid any base and destroy it.
DoW Dark Crusade: Cron OP as fuck. Nuff said.
DoW Soulstorm: Spamming Dark Eldar jet bikes the the Dias of Destruction would just insta kill everything.

Good times. Till DoWII came out with it's lame game play for 10 year olds. Where game play was capturing a strategic point, pushing a button then running away...

Hope DoW III's gameplay isn't anything like DoW II.

[Kuroialty 448]

1 hour ago, OOPMan said:

And here I was thinking I'd play Dawn of War 3 because it could be fun...

Fun is just a buzzword for when you can't actually think of any real reasons as to why the game is good.  You can use it as your own personal escape to justify your spending time on something, but if this is the only reason you can give for something being any good, then you will not convince anyone else with objective standards or tastes different than yours on why they should be spending time with it over something else.  It's a statement of aesthetic preference that conveys so little about the reasoning for your own tastes that it demonstrates poor self-knowledge and barely qualifies as even a status update.

[_Assad 3,538]

7 minutes ago, Kuroialty said:

Fun is just a buzzword for when you can't actually think of any real reasons as to why the game is good.  You can use it as your own personal escape to justify your spending time on something, but if this is the only reason you can give for something being any good, then you will not convince anyone else with objective standards or tastes different than yours on why they should be spending time with it over something else.  It's a statement of aesthetic preference that conveys so little about the reasoning for your own tastes that it demonstrates poor self-knowledge and barely qualifies as even a status update.

Yeah because a game like grand theft auto 5 which I play for fun certainly isnt good, nor is any of TW games, or any of the 200 games in my steam library. This isn't WoT where we play because it's a second job nor is it masochism like Dank souls. This is a game that we play for the lore and epic battles first and foremost. SC2 can be as competitive as it wants to be, but it will still never stamp out the ultra epic battles of DoW, Supreme Commander, and so on. You need to just fucking stop.

[Kuroialty 448]

4 minutes ago, _Assad said:

Yeah because a game like grand theft auto 5 which I play for fun certainly isnt good, nor is any of TW games, or any of the 200 games in my steam library. This isn't WoT where we play because it's a second job nor is it masochism like Dank souls. This is a game that we play for the lore and epic battles first and foremost. SC2 can be as competitive as it wants to be, but it will still never stamp out the ultra epic battles of DoW, Supreme Commander, and so on. You need to just fucking stop.

So bright lights and big explosions are fun for you, and therefore games that have them are good.  This is where your standards are at.  I'm sure DoW 3 will be perfect for someone like you, but I'm here to tell everyone that isn't as simple as a magpie that this is not worth their time and they could channel their interest towards better pursuits.

[_Assad 3,538]

1 minute ago, Kuroialty said:

So bright lights and big explosions are fun for you, and therefore games that have them are good.  This is where your standards are at.  I'm sure DoW 3 will be perfect for someone like you, but I'm here to tell everyone that isn't as simple as a magpie that this is not worth their time and they could channel their interest towards better pursuits.

If the official forums need 1200 wn8 to post; I think that wotlabs needs atleast a 4.0 because the fucking salt is incredible especially since the mere announcement alone seems to have you rattled more than a pubbie who didn't get that piece of shit tier 8 premium tank. If you're so fucking quaint and superior stop fucking arguing holy shit. This is a place to discuss the game and our hype, not bicker for something thats over year's time away from release. Who knew a game could be fun?

I guess you wouldn't know since you've never played WoT outside of tier 3 before. You've probably never had fun in your life.

[OOPMan 1,266]

1 hour ago, Kuroialty said:

So bright lights and big explosions are fun for you, and therefore games that have them are good.  This is where your standards are at.  I'm sure DoW 3 will be perfect for someone like you, but I'm here to tell everyone that isn't as simple as a magpie that this is not worth their time and they could channel their interest towards better pursuits.

Do you even Geometry Wars?

Do you realise that gaming goes way beyond the competitive dick-measuring scene?

Have you ever played Eldritch Horror?

 

[Politx_Killer 803]

3 hours ago, Kuroialty said:

So bright lights and big explosions are fun for you, and therefore games that have them are good.  This is where your standards are at.  I'm sure DoW 3 will be perfect for someone like you, but I'm here to tell everyone that isn't as simple as a magpie that this is not worth their time and they could channel their interest towards better pursuits.

We enjoy the universe that is 40k, I'm sure there is a cactus that may need removing from your rectum.

[megaflex4000 148]

bleep bloop does not compute. What is this thing you humans call "fun"?

[_Dia 2,082]

12 hours ago, Kuroialty said:

Fun is just a buzzword for when you can't actually think of any real reasons as to why the game is good.  You can use it as your own personal escape to justify your spending time on something, but if this is the only reason you can give for something being any good, then you will not convince anyone else with objective standards or tastes different than yours on why they should be spending time with it over something else.  It's a statement of aesthetic preference that conveys so little about the reasoning for your own tastes that it demonstrates poor self-knowledge and barely qualifies as even a status update.

Consider pulling the cactus out of your ass already. 

[BattleMetalChris 289]

12 hours ago, Kuroialty said:

Fun is just a buzzword for when you can't actually think of any real reasons as to why the game is good.  You can use it as your own personal escape to justify your spending time on something, but if this is the only reason you can give for something being any good, then you will not convince anyone else with objective standards or tastes different than yours on why they should be spending time with it over something else.  It's a statement of aesthetic preference that conveys so little about the reasoning for your own tastes that it demonstrates poor self-knowledge and barely qualifies as even a status update.

This is literally the funniest thing I've read all week. 

[MacusFlash 2,270]

8 hours ago, megaflex4000 said:

bleep bloop does not compute. What is this thing you humans call "fun"?

Fun is a lie. Now go back to the next test chamber and perform some tests. Why?  

For science of course.

[Vindi 414]

http://store.steampowered.com/app/285190/

tomorrow.

 

"As our bodies are armoured with Adamantium, our souls are protected with our loyalty. As our bolters are charged with death for the Emperor's enemies, our thoughts are charged with his wisdom. As our ranks advance, so does our devotion, for are we not Marines? Are we not the chosen of the Emperor, his loyal servants unto death?"
— Brother-Chaplain Fergas Nils' address to the defenders of Portrein

Gamespot - 8
GameWatcher 8.5
Hardcore Gamer - 4.5/5
PCgamesN - 8
PC Invasion - 7
Polygon - 8
Spazio Games - 8
Stevivor - 8.5
The Sixth Axis - 8
Trusted Reviews 4/5
USGamer - 4/5

 

best review so far: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/04/20/warhammer-40000-dawn-of-war-3-review/

[crapcannon 67]

On 5/3/2016 at 1:39 PM, Vindi said:

if they make a dow I with 2016 graphics I will be happy

dow II was a failure though

DoW I: Capture strategic point, upgrade point with guns, enemy dies if tries to capture.
DoW II: Run up to strategic point, push button, run away, enemy does the same, rinse, repeat.
DoW II = boring.

The only good thing about DoW II was the graphics and the fact that they had Tyranids. That's about it.

[Vindi 414]

57 minutes ago, crapcannon said:

DoW I: Capture strategic point, upgrade point with guns, enemy dies if tries to capture.
DoW II: Run up to strategic point, push button, run away, enemy does the same, rinse, repeat.
DoW II = boring.

The only good thing about DoW II was the graphics and the fact that they had Tyranids. That's about it.

yes that's what I said

[MetGreDKo 455]

I'm amused that the most helpful reviews on steam are negative about the game.

[Kuroialty 448]

Where is Dawn of War III now?  Oh, right, the game was awful and people stopped giving a shit about it within a year, apparently even including the developer.  Who could have even predicted such an outcome?!?1/!/1???!???

I was right; fuck your downvotes, fuck your bans.