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Rexxie

Elimination: Tier 10 - E5 Triumphant! (COMPLETE)

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1 hour ago, Felicius said:

This.

Hm, i did not know that E 50 M has a low skill ceiling:feelsbad:, or was so easy to approach perfection with:awyeah:.

I will not flame another war about 50 M vs hovermeds, but 500 DPM (more like 350 if you run Panzerschokolade, on russian meds (140 is the most flammable) at you need AFE or insane crews with 6 skills, one of them being full FF) is partially offset by higher alpha. Other merits (more hitpoints, armor) were elaborated better  by @GehakteMolen than me. 

Also, maybe in a close brawl russian meds farm dmg a tad faster, but on any open map you can feel the difference in accuracy, along with faster HEAT shells for ultimate farm vs heavies at 400 m.

:facepalm: 

E 50M got weaker as a response to meta. Lower skill ceiling was mostly directed at E 100 because the tank just isn't that good (and got eliminated late). It's easy to do well in but doing more than well is pretty much impossible. 

The highest combined E 100 I could find was vetros (4500), and that thing is lower than a whopping 16 other T10s in terms of his DPGs. The WR is obviously really high with that kind of play (83 which smells platoons to me but i might be wrong) but everything else lies at 70% that i have seen on stream solo.

The thing that was my point in the first place (but "statistics") is that the BC actually has a higher damage output than the TVP for him. (Bear in mind that the TVP is still at 4,9k, so it's obviously good play) Only by 10, but still enough to start wondering why it got voted off so early if the same kind of results (in a tank that isn't considered OP at all) are possible. I doubt WR differs by much either. (BC has a lot more games and a lower overall combined damage/wr and finding recent WRs on vBAddict is hard) but with the recent combined damages that 5% WR difference should have been gone. This was my entire point. You might not agree on other tanks because wins in triple platoons > DPGs :babyrage: and sure. But there are flaws where people simply underestimate tanks just because lack of understanding on how to play them. (I.E. it's possible to average 5,5k combined in a CAX and have a 70% solo winrate but only for people truly understanding it so those who are on that level but do not will pass it off as something not as good as an M48 that is really easy to understand)

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5 hours ago, Kolni said:

:facepalm: 

E 50M got weaker as a response to meta. Lower skill ceiling was mostly directed at E 100 because the tank just isn't that good (and got eliminated late). It's easy to do well in but doing more than well is pretty much impossible. 

The highest combined E 100 I could find was vetros (4500), and that thing is lower than a whopping 16 other T10s in terms of his DPGs. The WR is obviously really high with that kind of play (83 which smells platoons to me but i might be wrong) but everything else lies at 70% that i have seen on stream solo.

The thing that was my point in the first place (but "statistics") is that the BC actually has a higher damage output than the TVP for him. (Bear in mind that the TVP is still at 4,9k, so it's obviously good play) Only by 10, but still enough to start wondering why it got voted off so early if the same kind of results (in a tank that isn't considered OP at all) are possible. I doubt WR differs by much either. (BC has a lot more games and a lower overall combined damage/wr and finding recent WRs on vBAddict is hard) but with the recent combined damages that 5% WR difference should have been gone. This was my entire point. You might not agree on other tanks because wins in triple platoons > DPGs :babyrage: and sure. But there are flaws where people simply underestimate tanks just because lack of understanding on how to play them. (I.E. it's possible to average 5,5k combined in a CAX and have a 70% solo winrate but only for people truly understanding it so those who are on that level but do not will pass it off as something not as good as an M48 that is really easy to understand)

Oh, but Bat chat is better for winning as TVP for super unicums:

http://wot-news.com/game/tankinfo/en/eu/czech/Cz04_T50_51

Just add bat chat and you can see bat chat beiing abpove the ref line, while TVP drops below after 65% winratio

Same tier 9 skoda is not that amazing anymore, E50 totally outclasses it (a 65% player gets 65% in skoda and 69% in E50, E50 is the godking of tier 9 meds, and anyone denying this is a blinded fanboi :doit:)

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38 minutes ago, GehakteMolen said:

Oh, but Bat chat is better for winning as TVP for super unicums:

http://wot-news.com/game/tankinfo/en/eu/czech/Cz04_T50_51

Just add bat chat and you can see bat chat beiing abpove the ref line, while TVP drops below after 65% winratio

Same tier 9 skoda is not that amazing anymore, E50 totally outclasses it (a 65% player gets 65% in skoda and 69% in E50, E50 is the godking of tier 9 meds, and anyone denying this is a blinded fanboi :doit:)

Which just proves my point. BC starts to outperform the TVP at a certain point and should ultimately make it the better tank but apparently it's not according to the rankings here which was what I was going for all along.

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5 hours ago, Kolni said:

:facepalm: 

E 50M got weaker as a response to meta.

Well, maybe (Grille spam could have mattered), but why hovermeds have not? Lack of vision hurt them a lot more than E 50 M, and some maps are still good for Chai sniping - where E 50 M is far better. City maps (like Paris:kwim:) favor E 50 M more - there is not even much hulldown, and M can always sidescrape.

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Just now, Felicius said:

Well, maybe (Grille spam could have mattered), but why hovermeds have not? Lack of vision hurt them a lot more than E 50 M, and some maps are still good for Chai sniping - where E 50 M is far better. City maps (like Paris:kwim:) favor E 50 M more - there is not even much hulldown, and M can always sidescrape.

There are several reasons. 140/62A can sidescrape as well (just sharper angles) and their platform is straight up better. They also mitigate damage + snap waaaaaaaaaaaay better making for better potshots. 

E 50M needs close ups or really long engagements to work very well whereas a RU med can work well literally everywhere. They're like a more mobile E5 platform except the stupid armour schemes in terms of playstyle. E 50M plays similarly but is terrible outside of long ranges (armour gets rekt and aim time still makes you expose, even if you'll hit all your shots) 

The RU meds competition come from the 113 being better at pushing than them, but worse at dealing damage etc while E50M competition comes from maps literally fucking it over, over and over again :feelsbad: 

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The E-50M isn't as good at chaisniping as the 140/62A anyway, and it's certainly worse at sidescraping than 62A, 140, or 430. The lack of sustained DPM and quite long acquisition time (mostly due to the slow turret) make it less functional at range, IMHO. It's certainly no slouch, but these are the hovermeds we're talking about - even if they can't remain unspotted, their ability to rip other tanks to shreds far exceeds the E-50M's. The gap between 2500 and 3000 DPM is just too wide for the E-50M's accuracy and alpha to bridge.

The E-50M is a good vehicle, but the 140 (and to a lesser extent, the other hovermeds) is clearly better in almost all general circumstances.

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Just now, Kolni said:

There are several reasons. 140/62A can sidescrape as well (just sharper angles) and their platform is straight up better. They also mitigate damage + snap waaaaaaaaaaaay better making for better potshots. 

E 50M needs close ups or really long engagements to work very well whereas a RU med can work well literally everywhere. They're like a more mobile E5 platform except the stupid armour schemes in terms of playstyle. E 50M plays similarly but is terrible outside of long ranges (armour gets rekt and aim time still makes you expose, even if you'll hit all your shots) 

The RU meds competition come from the 113 being better at pushing than them, but worse at dealing damage etc while E50M competition comes from maps literally fucking it over, over and over again :feelsbad: 

Well, I do not have a feeling that M is weaker much...but i do much worse in RU meds than before...bc I am not that flexible as a player and my "tactical" skills are not so good as "strategic", i.e. i make bad decisions mid game (wrong reactions sometimes), but I know all the spots, weakspots, reloads, etc, and know hot to open the game and endgame scenarios well...

Actually, powercreep is accelerating in last year, more new lines have powercreeped both. It is mostly down to player skill and preference, i am able to do 3 k dmg and 55-57% WR in M, better or the same as before, while RU meds work bad recently. Others might feel otherwise.

1 minute ago, Rexxie said:

The E-50M isn't as good at chaisniping as the 140/62A anyway, and it's certainly worse at sidescraping than 62A, 140, or 430. The lack of sustained DPM and quite long acquisition time (mostly due to the slow turret) make it less functional at range, IMHO. It's certainly no slouch, but these are the hovermeds we're talking about - even if they can't remain unspotted, their ability to rip other tanks to shreds far exceeds the E-50M's. The gap between 2500 and 3000 DPM is just too wide for the E-50M's accuracy and alpha to bridge.

The E-50M is a good vehicle, but the 140 (and to a lesser extent, the other hovermeds) is clearly better in almost all general circumstances.

Well, target acquisition matters, yes. it is all down to whom are you sniping. If you are trying to hit a light tank running the ridge patrol, yes. but if you are hitting heavily armored tanks/tds, 0.3>>>0.35 base. Faster HEAT shells are also nice, for ripping enemy tanks with some degree of speed but stronk armor (or if you have it pre-loaded, I feel almost the same. In RU meds 1500 m7s is great, but 900 is awfull. 1200 m/s heat is great!)

Regarding sidescraping obj 140, please, how to do it? tank is simply too short, and turret is mid mounted. With 80 mm of side armor, only autobounce works, and that is impossible without showing your UFP.

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5 minutes ago, Felicius said:

Well, I do not have a feeling that M is weaker much...but i do much worse in RU meds than before...bc I am not that flexible as a player and my "tactical" skills are not so good as "strategic", i.e. i make bad decisions mid game (wrong reactions sometimes), but I know all the spots, weakspots, reloads, etc, and know hot to open the game and endgame scenarios well...

Actually, powercreep is accelerating in last year, more new lines have powercreeped both. It is mostly down to player skill and preference, i am able to do 3 k dmg and 55-57% WR in M, better or the same as before, while RU meds work bad recently. Others might feel otherwise.

I average 5k (4k dpg and 1k assist) in the 140 and 4,3k in the E 50M. I averaged more before in the E 50M back when I was actually a worse player than I am now. I have the E 50 at 100% MoE so I'm confident in my ability to play the platform but it's not as good anymore. 

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Just now, Kolni said:

I average 5k (4k dpg and 1k assist) in the 140 and 4,3k in the E 50M. I averaged more before in the E 50M back when I was actually a worse player than I am now. I have the E 50 at 100% MoE so I'm confident in my ability to play the platform but it's not as good anymore. 

Maybe the skill ceiling got a bit lower, but for upper average (like me) it is still a solid performer - and requires far less effort to do well, regardless of Kharkov of Malinovka. Hm, maybe the meta changes impacted unicums and average Joe different?

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1 hour ago, Felicius said:

Regarding sidescraping obj 140, please, how to do it? tank is simply too short, and turret is mid mounted. With 80 mm of side armor, only autobounce works, and that is impossible without showing your UFP.

The E-50M has a mid mounted turret with 80mm of side armor, too. A midmounted turret is much better than a frontally mounted turret if you're trying to sidescrape, as you need to pull out less to get your turret out from behind wall.

Here's a ghetto mockup of all four vehicles in sidescrape:

 

U2rpizc.png

 

1. The 140 has the greatest amount of wiggle room; the sloped sides allow it to pull out at any number of angles and still have an invulnerable side - you can see just how wide it's allowed pull out in comparison to the others. On the other hand, it has the greatest number of weakspots. Luckily each are small - the UFP and cupola are the only semi-reliable hits even in close quarters, and at range the cupola is the only reasonable shot.

2. The E-50M is most reliable. If it gets in sidescrape, you will not pen its side. Sadly the turret is completely impossible to hide, very thin, and a nice wide target for your reticule to close in on. Worst at returning fire by a longshot, but it can bait shots beforehand from complete invulnerability just as well as the others. Both the E-50M and 62A have the least amount of wiggle room before their sides become pennable.

3. The 62A is unsurprisingly the absolute best sidescraper if you can find a way to hide that UFP. No surprise there. It can still sidescrape regardless, but it's only slightly better than the E-50M at returning fire without getting penned in return.

4. The 430 is the best sidescraper in general.  Same amazing sides as the 140, but it also has a smaller cupola and a big patch of autobounce UFP. A little less wiggle room than the 140, but more than the E-50 and 62A.

In my opinion, this seems to show 430 > 140 > 62A ~= E-50M assuming no other terrain. 62A > 430 > 140 >> E-50M if there's some kind of object hiding part of the UFP.  The E-50M needs to bait a shot into its invulnerable sides before poking. The 140/62A/430 can both do that and risk pulling out against a loaded opponent.

 

edit: I'm actually really unsure about the 140. Tanks.GG fucks up track armor so it might be lying to me when it says "absorbed" - I'm under the impression that you should be able to pen the 140's tracks in that position. If that's the case, you can just pretend it looks exactly like the 62A, except without the lip under the turret. Still slightly better than the E-50M, but nowhere near as much as tanks.gg shows it to be.

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16 minutes ago, Rexxie said:

 

  Hide contents

 

 

Nice work, Rexxie, as always. 

But IRL situations I have tried them all (have the M and 62 A, my bro 140), and I still find the M the best. It too has a mid mounted turret (i was thinking about the rear mounted ones as best sidescrapers, not the front ones), but it is longer overall, meaning I show just the tiny part of the LFP (enough to bait shots away from turret). 

Bloom on M does make you expose longer - but if I sidescrape at 250-300 m or more M works better. I usually load HEAT and snapshot too fast for enemies to get my turret face (worse soft stat than hovermeds, but better acc makes if good snapshotter if you move the hull just in one axis, and make turret movement minimal).

Bonus is, showing any side armor not on autobounce angles in 140 usually gets me set on fire or racked (yes, i know exsactly the locations of internal modules - i run the white hitskins mod, and have visited tanks.gg a lot), while m never gets any module damage unless from rear (engine). ammo rack is very strong, and you must hit it exactly below the turret (ppl often shoot more in front when i overangle in wiggling)

i played 430 on test, was not impressed. too derpy to return fire, by time i can shoot, others have already found my weakspots, or simply gold spammed my turret face.

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18 minutes ago, Rexxie said:

edit: I'm actually really unsure about the 140. Tanks.GG fucks up track armor so it might be lying to me when it says "absorbed" - I'm under the impression that you should be able to pen the 140's tracks in that position. If that's the case, you can just pretend it looks exactly like the 62A, except without the lip under the turret. Still slightly better than the E-50M, but nowhere near as much as tanks.gg shows it to be.

A 140 will bounce most at a sharp angle but like almost every single tank except an IS-4 a regular sidescrape has pennable angles unless you're literally giving ricochet steep angles in the first place. IIRC 140 tracks are spaced to some degree so shooting HEAT at it will make it a much more effective sidescraper. Otherwise I find the angle to mostly for baiting shots rather actually pulling out due to either showing UFP/LFP too much or sides start being pennable. (Mostly to blow off someones shot after I've fired really). 

Problem is that angles like these:

j0ySpJe.png?1

are about as sideways as I dare to go to keep my armour working. UFP is still pennable but the biggest problem for all RU meds that the E 50M doesn't have is that the E 50M can sidescrape, shoot and run no risk of getting penned through the drivewheel for track + damage. As you can see here, this angle is made for the gun and not the PoV (i'm lazy ok) so the actual angle is a bit steeper but it helps quite a bit with people not hitting your drivewheels. However, if your gun is aimed outside of your UFP and to sides for you to have then you are pennable etc

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Yea, you guys are absolutely right. I was hedging on tanks.gg being right (and the whole side, including drivewheel, being autobounce in even a fairly clumsy sidescrape), but that doesn't seem to be the case at all. In that case I'd put the E-50M above the 140 simply because of that drive wheel nonsense. Kind of peeved that the game has been out for so long and yet no one seems to be able to simulate spaced armor yet.

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