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Sexy_Dave

Is there a "final" consensus on crew skills?

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5 hours ago, _Juris said:

I feel like it's pretty rare to for me to be taking a shot where I haven't just moved forwards or backwards at least a little bit, even at range -

I would suggest that the turret is almost always moving prior to a shot (certainly more so than axial movement).  As you continuously try to keep the pipper on target and aim down for weakspots. etc.  Even in autoaim mode if you or your enemies tank is moving the turret is moving to compensate.

The bloom sources are not equal; some tanks have good hull bloom and terrible turret traverse while others have the opposite.  It can be used to mitigate a specific tank issue but I am with the rest of you that it has moved well down the list...      

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7 hours ago, 8_Hussars said:

I would suggest that the turret is almost always moving prior to a shot (certainly more so than axial movement).

Not always, when you play something like the KV-2 which has god awful turret dispersion but ok-ish straight line dispersion and you want to hit your shots without eating 5 in return you'll learn to pre aim and nudge forward a bit without moving the turret any more than necessary. This carried over to other tanks and I find it a positive habit to have, even in something with ridiculous gun handling like the Lowe or E50.

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well they're both awful to be fair

turning the turret blooms it wide open though, creeping the hull back and forth doesnt

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As for smooth ride: Try to think about the situations, where you are not moving forward (or backwards), but are moving your hull or turret. How often does that happen, unless you're an artillery or bushfagging doom-cannon-wanker? Almost nill, right? As far as we know, turret bloom, traverse bloom and movement bloom are multiplicative and thus, smooth ride is a multiplicative bonus. It does have an effect on turret bloom, if you also move your hull (which is pretty much always the case). It will reduce the aim-bloom, when you traverse and move. It will of course also help with shots when you traverse, drive and turn your turret. The overall impact might be small, but it's essentially always going to improve your aim.

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Don't reroll. It doesn't make sense to throw away all your progress and XVM camo. If you want to join a clan, recent stats are what should matter. Also, you don't know if your friend was actually continue playing with your old account.

Camo is still great. Especially when starting new LT/MT/TD crews on lower tiers, vision is essential for outplaying unskilled opponents. That said, you might want to prioritize repairs if playing aggressively with a cromwell or something.

A generic MT crew:

  • 6th sense (train straight away or reset when first skill at 100%)
  • Camo
  • Repairs
  • Reset for BiA when 3rd skill over 50%. 
  • As 4th/5th skills, train sit. awareness, snap shot, smooth ride, possibly safe stowage.

 HT crew:

  • Same as above except no camo.

Other points:

  • I think there's a lack of consensus on mobility skills. I haven't seen the math or experimentation on the relative usefulness of clutch braking and off-road driving since the new physics. That also makes it difficult to gauge when they're better than smooth ride.
  • JoAT is useful on the IS-3, for example, because of it's dying driver. JoAT can also allow you to replace the medkit with food.
  • Designated target is useful as a late skill on spotters.
  • Armorer is alright but low priority on hull-down tanks.
  • Dead-eye is low prio. It seems better on high RoF guns, but some people claim it to be useful on high calibers. Go figure.
  • Preventative maintenance has some use on tanks that take engine shots
  • Firefighting is underwhelming, but it's worth getting if you have 4-5+ skills. Helps with playing without a fire extinguisher.
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7 hours ago, Madner Kami said:

As for smooth ride: Try to think about the situations, where you are not moving forward (or backwards), but are moving your hull or turret. How often does that happen, unless you're an artillery or bushfagging doom-cannon-wanker? Almost nill, right? 

All the fucking time. You're sat there, pre-aimed on a bush, and an enemy gets spotted to the bush to the right of that. Do you a) stay still, turn your turret and shoot as soon as you aim or b) think,'I know, let me move my hull a bit to get the shitty, tiny Smooth Ride bonus and turn my turret at the same time for the additional kick in the nuts to my bloom'?

Alternatively, you're on Prokhorovka or Mailinovka and you're shooting targets that are lit for your scouts? Are you just moving your turret or are you inexcpliably turning/moving your hull too? Of course it's just your fucking turret. What about on the windows in Ensk? Just your turret again, my friend.

Your quoted statement makes no fucking sense, and the vast majority of times when you're shooting the ideal situation is to not move your hull at all. The only times you should really do that is dogfighting, and that's it, to minimise the bloom as much as possible. All of those instances where you move your turret only Smooth Ride has ZERO effect. In the instances where you do move your hull, it has an ALMOST ZERO effect.

Wasted. Skill.

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Have to agree, I really can't think of many situations where i move forwards or backwards but not my turret. 

 

Question: does going in a straight line with autoaim on a tank at ~90 degrees to you cause turret bloom? I'm assuming it would?

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2 hours ago, Snoregasm2 said:

All the fucking time. You're sat there, pre-aimed on a bush, and an enemy gets spotted to the bush to the right of that. Do you a) stay still, turn your turret and shoot as soon as you aim or b) think,'I know, let me move my hull a bit to get the shitty, tiny Smooth Ride bonus and turn my turret at the same time for the additional kick in the nuts to my bloom'?

Alternatively, you're on Prokhorovka or Mailinovka and you're shooting targets that are lit for your scouts? Are you just moving your turret or are you inexcpliably turning/moving your hull too? Of course it's just your fucking turret. What about on the windows in Ensk? Just your turret again, my friend.

Your quoted statement makes no fucking sense, and the vast majority of times when you're shooting the ideal situation is to not move your hull at all. The only times you should really do that is dogfighting, and that's it, to minimise the bloom as much as possible. All of those instances where you move your turret only Smooth Ride has ZERO effect. In the instances where you do move your hull, it has an ALMOST ZERO effect.

Wasted. Skill.

 For example with T62, when in good hull down spot you exactly do that back-forth straight movement. Shoot, drive back little bit so that turret is covered, wait reload, move forward, shoot again. Repeat again and again. No hull turning, no turret rotation. Even with t62's strong turret, one still does not sit still waiting for enemy to get lucky hit on turret face or weak side cupola, its always back to cover.

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6 minutes ago, sahtila said:

 For example with T62, when in good hull down spot you exactly do that back-forth straight movement. Shoot, drive back little bit so that turret is covered, wait reload, move forward, shoot again. Repeat again and again. No hull turning, no turret rotation. Even with t62's strong turret, one still does not sit still waiting for enemy to get lucky hit on turret face or weak side cupola, its always back to cover.

How would you NOT move your turret in that situation? Do you not need to actually, you know, aim at the target? When shooting, you will never not need to move your turret to initially aim, even if you're pointing in the right general direction of the enemy.

That's why Snap Shot is so much more useful than Smooth Ride.

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3 minutes ago, Snoregasm2 said:

How would you NOT move your turret in that situation? Do you not need to actually, you know, aim at the target? When shooting, you will never not need to move your turret to initially aim, even if you're pointing in the right general direction of the enemy.

That's why Snap Shot is so much more useful than Smooth Ride.

No, there is little turret movement but its small enough that you only get small part of maximum turret bloom. When turret movement small enough there is almost no rotation bloom.  But anyway, pointless to argue as previous thread about this listed already numerous situations where Smooth Drive gives full profit. Full speed snapshot, sidescraping, poking over ridge etc.

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4 hours ago, sahtila said:

No, there is little turret movement but its small enough that you only get small part of maximum turret bloom. When turret movement small enough there is almost no rotation bloom.  But anyway, pointless to argue as previous thread about this listed already numerous situations where Smooth Drive gives full profit. Full speed snapshot, sidescraping, poking over ridge etc.

Certainly, as you suggest lower turret movement rates induce lower blooms where Vstab and Snap don't provide full benefit.  Contrary to what you stated above the case is similar for peeking a corner, poking a ridge, or sidescrape because you don't do those at max tank speeds where you would see max Smooth Ride benefit.  As movement rates approach zero both situations provide diminishing returns...YMMV

SR is still behind up to 5 other driver skills (BIA, Camo/Repair, clutch/off road) for me.

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On 5/9/2016 at 8:37 AM, Snoregasm2 said:

Although WG doesn't disclose exactly how much Turret movement, forward/reverse movement and hull traverse affect bloom, let's assume they're all equally important and contribute 1/3 each to 'overall' bloom.

The WG wiki doesn't mention it, but RichardNixon and several others, including myself, have verified that the Accuracy/dispersion formula in the WoT client is:

disp = Gun accy*sqrt(1+forward moving^2 + hull turning^2 + turret turn^2)
                   ^                        ^                                ^                         ^
              base value          SR skill                        nada                Snap skill    <-- stuff that helps

GunAccuracy = ReportedGunDispersion

Dispersion Moving Traverse = DispersionMoving*HullSpeed (kmh)

Dispersion Hull Traverse = DispersionHull*HullTraverseSpeed (deg/s)

Dispersion Turret Traverse = DispersionTurret*TurretTraverseSpeed (deg/s)

SR gives a MAX benefit of 4% reduction to the Forward movement dispersion, which really is a functional 1.33% to overall dispersion bloom improvement. even on window peek-a-booming at low speed or high speed. Low speed gives greater benefit from SR than high speed but the overall effect of it is minimal.

Quote

The Clutch skill can affect Hull turn dispersion by making it worse/faster for a shorter period of time. Nothing makes it better save equip/BIA. Clutch is still vital for tactical movement so it's validity isn't questioned but knowledge that it can make your dispersion worse while turning should be paid attention to.

and the files you can verify it in is: 
res/scripts/avatar.pyc
it's unencrypted but you do need a tool reader to view it. Also the lang is python if its not obvious.

SR isn't useful on tanks with less than .25 dispersion on forward movement. (basically sub tier 6 and a few random premiums/high tiers). Yes, I did the math and its in other threads if you want the proof. There's a few higher tiers that benefit from it, but in general it should be a 3rd or 4th skill for everything. Exact dispersion on forward movement for your favorite tank can be found at tanks.gg in the stats or compare menus.


Vstab> GLD
LiS2R11.jpg

dispersion along the side, time on bottom.
Vstab is always working. GLD only when you stop.
 

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Since Snap is on the gunner and SR is on the driver, the direct pros/cons aren't really relevant here since you can run both if you so wish.

Since the Driver has quite a few useful skills (unlike, say the loader or RO) waiting to train SR makes sense in most cases.

As I said, .25 is pretty much the 'useful line' I found that the actual line is a bit grey, but that it tends to stay between .25 and .27 on forward movement dispersion. Greater than .25 makes it useful, less than .25 or .27 is a case of diminishing usefulness and run something else.
 

19 hours ago, Mureke said:

Dead-eye is low prio. It seems better on high RoF guns, but some people claim it to be useful on high calibers. Go figure.

That's because it boosts the % chance to dmg in the module damage/health formula. High calibers get a natural boost to chance of module dmg similar to the overmatch rule, while high ROF guns get a slight boost from better natural pen than derp/low ROF plus the continued chance to do dmg again rapidly. I think it's valid choice for both types as a late skill or mission hunting.

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As far as i can remember off-road driving was nigh-useless.

I can recall trying with a clanmate and on most tanks you only get 1% or similar improved acceleration on soft terrain.

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It seems the main use of ORD now is for improved turning by casemate tanks. ORD gives a slightly better deg/s turn rate than just straight clutch. 
There's a caveat to that statement though:
CB is better for Turning on hard paved surfaces (rarely seen outside of ruinberg and Himmels)

In medium (pretty much everything that's not paved) and soft (valley lakeville, center swamp, and similar) terrain, ORD outperforms CB for turns and has slightly improved mobility. So, yeah it's fairly useless as a terrain modifier but it has some use as a rotational aide.

Both casemate and turreted tanks can make use of this, but casemates get a bigger advantage from it, esp the assault gun class.

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On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 11:54 PM, TaylorSwift said:

Firefighting drastically improves survivability when you run every tank with food. :disco: 

But as I first read from Vetro, the main skills (repair/camo/bia) are way more important than secondary ones, like snapshot/smooth ride/clutch braking/etc. The overall % gain is greater than that of any other skill.

Is food that good?  I've played this game a ton, but avoided food as it seemed to be less useful than an automatic extinguisher.

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1 hour ago, jsgx3 said:

Is food that good?  I've played this game a ton, but avoided food as it seemed to be less useful than an automatic extinguisher.

Vents gives +5% to all crew members. Food gives double that. Occasionally saving 600-1000 hp in one out of every 30 games is so not worth being overall worse preforming in the rest.

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6 hours ago, TaylorSwift said:

Vents gives +5% to all crew members. Food gives double that. Occasionally saving 600-1000 hp in one out of every 30 games is so not worth being overall worse preforming in the rest.

I guess I'm probably wrong, but I feel like I get lit on fire a lot more than that.  It's the reason I carry an automatic FE on nearly all my tanks.  My trade off is I don't worry about firefighting skills and use that slot for something else until very deep in my builds.

I'll have to try it as I have finally built up a reserve of kits.  I used to sell them to fund the tank collection and the grinds.

This may be one of the many (many, many) little things holding me back from pushing to the next level.  Perhaps I'm "doing it wrong".

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