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Rexxie

Elimination: Tier 9 - Skoda Victorious! (COMPLETE)

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I quite liked the M103.
I suspect some of the dislike for it stems from folks rushing through it to get the winner of the Tier 10 elimination thread (the t110E5) some of whom may not even have upgraded the gun in order to save time.

My experience in tier 9 and 10 is limited so I won't vote in these, but I really enjoy hearing almost everyone's thoughts.

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8 minutes ago, Yuri_Yslin said:

I think some of you are taking this too seriously. Our opinions, just as our skill level, differ. They don't differ to a point where someone thinks Type4 is OP, but don't expect one universal opinion. The rules are good, tho. It takes a while for a thing to drop off the list, and I fully agree with pretty much everything so far, EXCEPT VKB > E75. Both have same shitty turret, it's just that VKB padding HT-12 somewhat made people think it's better. Fuck NO. It uses the same shitty gun and the same shitty turret (by T9 HEAT standards), but is even slower, sides suck, and the awkward rear mounted turret is annoying. It should go before E75 IMHO, which at least can turn well to flanking attempts and change angles on the spot, fooling those trying to pen LFP with AP.

I think the VKB is being favored for being truly difficult to pen even with gold. The E75 LFP doesn't hold up like the VK's, forcing you to go for turret shots. Those are much less reliable, as well as more difficult to land for most players. It only takes a bit of poor accuracy RNG to hit the gun, mantlet, or skip off the sides/top.

A VK is a lot scarier to get pushed by, because I KNOW I can knock 2-3 shots of HP off of an e75 while he closes. A VK I might only get 1 or 2, or even none if RNG fucks me. 

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17 hours ago, CarbonWard said:

STI has arguably the worst gun in tier 9 period.0.25/0.25/0.2 dispersion  with 3.4 sec aimtime on a 440 alpha gun is pure cancer.

Your now forgetting something very important: [gun handling] = bloom x speed x base accuracy, St-1 has the lowest turret traverse speed and also overall bad turning, this means the actual bloom from turret traverse is not that bad (a bit worse as Conqueror, and way better as skoda / amx 120 / most mediums)

see spoiler (all values are normalised for T-10 and base on standing still just moving the turret)

Spoiler

 

T-10 1
E50 1,154187
Wz-111 1,25
Vk-B 1,384729
M46 1,538547
M103 1,538639
m103 1,538639
E75 1,55782
Conq 1,635006
St-1 1,730911
Skoda 2,01955
Amx 120 2,154094
Pta 2,491055
T54 2,5391
Cent mk7 3,11564
Amx 30 4,231833

 

17 hours ago, RichardNixon said:

That would be roughly true if WG hadn't buffed the M46, Conq, IS-8/T-10 and WZ111, while the 430v2 was always a legit competitor. The ST-I has poor skill scaling (probably due to the bad turret bloom), so tier 9's pretty close at the top now.

I assume that you now mean for unicums, since i cant imagine Obj 430 v2 to be good for average players

Or is this massive effected by stock grind? Vk-B, St-1 and E50 all have terrible stock grinds, especially for new players

7 hours ago, Snoregasm2 said:

 

As was noted in the tier 10 thread, the IS-4 W/R is a quirky anomaly that everyone has struggled to explain. What it definitely does have is more abusable armour against nubs due to it being the king of sidescraping. The ST-I isn't all that great compared to other tier 9 heavies, especially FsOTM T-10 and WZ-111111111111111 1-4. Add to that the Conqueror with it's best in tier turret, DPM and gun handling and 3 mediums who only weakness is 'TOO MANY CREDITS SPENT' in the E 50, M46 and 430v.2 and it would be a surprise if the ST-I even broke the top 8 tanks on this list.

At no point in the last year or so, perhaps ever, has the ST-I been objectively the best tank at tier 9. That's because a) there is no objective best tank at any tier (this subjective convergence of opinions will be the closest we come to that, however) and b) even using W/R, it is arguable at best whether W/R is a true indication of whether a tank is the 'best' or not (again, IS-4 pls).

People seem to forget this. ST-I is legitimately useful and better than most of its competitors in 20-50m engagements, and that's it.

I'd still say the ST-I is more abusable than the E 75 due to the better turret, and probably deserves to outlast the E 75. An autopen turret with prem ammo is a massive disadvantage in today's meta, and the ST-I can still bounce most prem rounds unless you aim carefully.

St-1 turret is perhaps the best turret in the game, IS7 is stronger and thats about it, Conq is liek Fv 215b, and that turret is nothing special (its rly good for a tier 9, but not bs armor like St-1)

ST-1 just gets massive underrated and this topic shows it, i get the feeling many people simply cant play it... (just like i cant get autoloaders to work)

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5 minutes ago, BoilerBandsman said:

I think the VKB is being favored for being truly difficult to pen even with gold. The E75 LFP doesn't hold up like the VK's, forcing you to go for turret shots. Those are much less reliable, as well as more difficult to land for most players. It only takes a bit of poor accuracy RNG to hit the gun, mantlet, or skip off the sides/top.

A VK is a lot scarier to get pushed by, because I KNOW I can knock 2-3 shots of HP off of an e75 while he closes. A VK I might only get 1 or 2, or even none if RNG fucks me. 

 

I would say that both of them are mediocre, but with VKB you can sidescrape easier and your hull armor is somewhat reliable of bouncing gold shells if you angle.

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If you gold spam hard enough ( 12,8 cm Pak L/66  hehe) you pen both in UFP how even they angle. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

Along with ST-I and IS-7 turret faces.

Of course, ST-I you go for hatch because of the height difference. But those 2 work only up to 100 m or so, against Fascist boxes it pens them at draw range in UFP.

ST-I is better tank to defend, but worse to attack than E 75. Problem is that LFP is so weak, and you sometimes must advance...no matter how you angle, even tier 8 will pen it with ap, while E 75 not so. Also, being so slow you are being shot at for longer time.

Also, UFP is not good at all, and alpha is lower, while DPM better a bit, but aim time and gun handling is much worse. APCR> HEAT for snapshots, too>

ST-I>E 75 def

E 75> ST-I attack

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21 minutes ago, Equanimity said:

I quite liked the M103.
I suspect some of the dislike for it stems from folks rushing through it to get the winner of the Tier 10 elimination thread (the t110E5) some of whom may not even have upgraded the gun in order to save time.

My experience in tier 9 and 10 is limited so I won't vote in these, but I really enjoy hearing almost everyone's thoughts.

I down-voted the M103 because of my experiences like this

4YySGuX.jpg

I have never experienced getting shot at by a yoloing T 49 with HEAT ammo loaded and penning my side and killing all 5 crew members. I can expect that in my Lorr 40T but that never happened when I was playing that tank. For a Heavy tank that is disgusting for something like that to happen.

I also down-voted for it having an overall downgrade from the American HT doctrine of being a hull down spooki tank, Of which the M 103 can NOT do.

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WZ-120: 7
WZ-111 1-4: 25
Skoda T-50: 31
AMX 30: 20
Jagdtiger: 19 - 3 = 16 I want to downvote the 45b for being a slow turd, but this thing is a slow turd, with less armor and no turret. Good gun tho. But doesn't save it from getting a -3
VK 45.02 B: 19
E 50: 27 + 1 = 28 Whats not to love, low exposure, reliable gun, well armored for a medium. decently mobile. Hopefully 9.15 restores some extra mobility back, but its still fairly quick. and ramming is fun.
Conqueror: 27
T54E1: 17
T30: 9
M46 Patton 39
T-54: 27  
Obj  430V2: 27 
T-10: 37
ST-I:  21

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M103's problem is blandness. Instead of being good at almost everything but great at none (like the e5), it's mediocre at everything. It's sluggish, neither hard nor paper, the gun is quite good but dpm and alpha are meh, the turret is huge (easy shots for people sniping from other angles). The M103 just has no calling card to leverage into carries like a TVP's clip + speed, an E100's brute force, or an E5's swiss army knife. It's decent, you'll get your damage in most games and win your fair share, but no more than that in either category. 

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Quote

Your now forgetting something very important: [gun handling] = bloom x speed x base accuracy

The problem is that this tells you how quickly the tank accumalates dispersion, but not how much it builds up overall. If one tank traverses its turret at 30 deg/second and another at 20 deg/second, and they both have the same turret bloom, then the latter will build up less bloom in one second of turning its turret. However, if they both need to traverse the turret, say, 15 degrees to the right, then they'll both build up an equal amount of bloom total. The first tank will accumalate those 15 penalties faster, but it also doesn't accumalate penalties for quite as long since it's pointing its gun at the target in less time. 

Add that to the fact that it also has more time to aim down the dispersion once it gets its gun locked on and you pretty much see that slow turret traverse isn't much of an advantage.

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37 minutes ago, GehakteMolen said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

T-10 1
E50 1,154187
Wz-111 1,25
Vk-B 1,384729
M46 1,538547
M103 1,538639
m103 1,538639
E75 1,55782
Conq 1,635006
St-1 1,730911
Skoda 2,01955
Amx 120 2,154094
Pta 2,491055
T54 2,5391
Cent mk7 3,11564
Amx 30 4,231833

 

Or is this massive effected by stock grind? Vk-B, St-1 and E50 all have terrible stock grinds, especially for new players

St-1 turret is perhaps the best turret in the game, IS7 is stronger and thats about it, Conq is liek Fv 215b, and that turret is nothing special (its rly good for a tier 9, but not bs armor like St-1)

But that's its only trick. I have my highest average blocked dmg in the game in the ST-I (more than any of my tier 10s even), but that's from farming nubs. Here's how you deal with an ST-I:

1. Is it hull down?

a) If no, kill it any way you choose (gold its hull no matter the angling, go around it, pop up for shots before his shitty gun can aim in etc.).

b) If yes, drive somewhere else, rape the rest of this team whilst he's too slow to adapt, then repeat a).

It lacks any flexibility whatsoever, and it's not good enough in it's primary role (damage sponge that can hurt back harder than it takes it, and lead a push) to be outclass the more flexible tier 9 tanks. The T-10 or Conq can do the hull down job just as well (ST-I has small but WEAK cupolas which are super easy to hit at close quarters e.g. Himmesldorf heavy line), whilst also being able to flex/lead pushes/DPM other tanks down.

ST-1 just gets massive underrated and this topic shows it, i get the feeling many people simply cant play it... (just like i cant get autoloaders to work)

I think you actually overrate it and other people are properly rating it (it hasn't been voted out yet, but it won't even sniff the top 5 either).

 

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Wall of text, because I also agree this thread needs more discussion:

1 hour ago, Trobs said:

The E-50 will survive for a long time because of people's love of it padding WN8 rather than comparing it to the other 9s, where it really isn't that strong.

E-50 compared to the 111 and T-10, all of which I consider the top 3 T9s and very similar:

  • Best mobility, slightly better than the T-10 due to better top speed and traverse rate. Significantly better than the 111 1-4, which should have suffered more from the physics changes than the E-50 did.
  • Armor notably in the T-10 and 111's favor, but not by as much as you might think. The T-10 and 111 bounce around 36% of incoming rounds, the E-50 bounces around 33%. You'd expect more due to the turret armor difference, but that doesn't seem to be the case. The E-50's slim turret face & autobounce conical mantlet probably has a lot to do with this.
  • Module damage seems to be T-10 > E-50 > 111.
  • Ability to use terrain to your advantage seems to be a wash; the 111 and T-10 have decent hulldown potential, the E-50 has significantly improved gun dep and a little camo to work with.
  • In terms of statistical winrate performance, E-50 > T-10 > 111. The E-50 also has the best player scaling of the three, meaning as player skill improves the rift in winrates become further and further in the E-50's favor. Interestingly, the 111 has better scaling than the T-10. Theoretically there is a point where the 111 will perform better than the T-10, although I dont think this pans out in reality due to how insanely good of a population that'd require.

Now, as for the gun, I can't be quite as objective. All complaints about the E-50's gun seem to be about the pen, and rightfully so. This is the only stat in which the E-50 is unquestionably crippled in compared to the others, and you absolutely will have problems dealing with a number of T10 heavies if they are positioned decently. You do need to take this into context though; the E-50's gun is otherwise far superior. The DPM is punishing, the accuracy is pinpoint, and the handling is unfair. The difference in penetration also isn't as black and white as it seems, as you also have to factor in the fact the E-50 will hit weaker armor with more accuracy and that the mechanical difference between HEAT and APCR rounds makes their comparative performance vary wildly from engagement to engagement.

To crab's comments on how physics wrecked the E-50, I just can't see any signs that it actually happened. No matter how you look at the physics changes, all three of these tanks should have been hit almost identically as hard. They all have very similar p:w ratio and terrain resistance. From my own standpoint and as someone who's had the E-50 in his garage for a while, the E-50 seems to be about as mobile as before. This is something I feel needs actual testing done to hold up as an effective argument, especially considering the mobility nerf would need to be massive to explain away its past performance. Sadly I don't have a very accurate source for this, but wot-news' graphs are better than nothing (at least when you're comparing a tank to itself). Here's the E-50 winrate curve pre and post physics changes; yellow is before, purple is after.

Spoiler

PuibcK2.png

To me this looks like a wash. The E-50 winrate does not seem to have gotten any worse since the change for any type of player. I completely understand wanting to push away the WN culture, but I think this is one of those situations where WN and WR padders should see eye to eye - the E-50 is overpowered.

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42 minutes ago, GehakteMolen said:

 

 

The thing is that in real life situation you don't really move your turret that much unless you are fighting in multiple angles which is really rare for heavies. You poke, you shoot, the turret only move that much but you have to drive to poke out.

9 minutes ago, Snoregasm2 said:

 

He's talking about the gun bloom...nothing about performance there.

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1 hour ago, Trobs said:

That the problem with these threads. People focus on their babies and ignore the fact we're supposed to be comparing them to the other tanks. Not looking at them in isolated bubbles. 140 and 62a should've been right next to each other on the listing but the 140 fell off super early comparatively. The E-50 will survive for a long time because of people's love of it padding WN8 rather than comparing it to the other 9s, where it really isn't that strong.

Not that strong? All you have to do is press 2 and you get a tier 10 tank that came SEVENTH in the list of best tier 10 tanks, minus some engine power and a HEAT round. How could it not be that strong compared to tier 9s?

I agree with the core point - I don't think the E 50 should win - and Crab has made it clear the reason why he downvoted it was because people pad it, which is a weird reason, but he's explained it so fair enough.

But saying an effective tier 10 tank is not that strong compared to 'the other tier 9s' is ridiculous, and clearly goes beyond an opinion on the relative strengths and weaknesses of tanks in random battles (what this thread is) to a critique of the WN8 culture, which is NOT what this thread is about (or at least i don't think it is).

 

3 minutes ago, Megrin said:

He's talking about the gun bloom...nothing about performance there.

He has previously said it's the best tier 9 tank, or one of the best.

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6 minutes ago, Snoregasm2 said:

He has previously said it's the best tier 9 tank, or one of the best.

 
1

I mean that list.

But also, E50 is good at padding but definitely not the best, because how M46/T-54 can have similar damage farming ability(for M46 it is probably even better) while getting more WN8 due to the fact that they have a lower expected value. It's like how M48 and T-62A just shits out WN8 without much effort compare to other T10 mediums.

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WZ-120: 7
WZ-111 1-4: 25
Skoda T-50: 31
AMX 30: 20
Jagdtiger 16
VK 45.02 B: 19
E 50: 28
Conqueror: 28
T54E1: 17 
T30: 9
M46 Patton 39
T-54: 27  
Object 430 II: 27 
T-10: 37
ST-1:  21

 

Jagdtiger: No Turret

Conqueror:  Good Turret + Good Gun

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50 minutes ago, GehakteMolen said:

Your now forgetting something very important: [gun handling] = bloom x speed x base accuracy, St-1 has the lowest turret traverse speed and also overall bad turning, this means the actual bloom from turret traverse is not that bad...

 

Did you just take two things that are bad about ST-I, and tried to make it look like those are actually advantages? We can continue the ST-I vs E-75 debate, but let's first agree that low turret traverse speed is a negative trait, same as bad turning.

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T 50 is ridiculous. Top by dmg and winning a 30% tier X battle is just dirty.

But all from my team were meatshields, we won with 2000 hp difference...most of that was in me.

In their team was a blue T 50 with 3500 avg dmg, and he was also top in his team. I had to use heat to kill Is-7, and bounced nothing...so sufficient penn.

I wait for Kewei to get hands on this.

P.S. One word: Highway.

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WZ has bad module dmg if shows lfp, but side armor has some serious spaced armor black holes.

And T-10 pike is useful against T 8, and side armor was buffed from 80 mm to 120 mm.

Both have better turret than E 50....

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On 19/5/2016 at 8:58 PM, Rexxie said:

 

You can be as dumb as you want with what tanks you think are good or bad, but downvoting tanks because they are too good is against the spirit of the thread. Lockhart's vote has been vetoed, he's welcome to make a new one. Current list:

 

Such is democracy. :fish:

So does that mean I get to do twice for the next one? One for the veto'd and another for my next vote? :doge:

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I say the E50 has better armor because I actually have to aim if the front is pointed towards me, as opposed to the WZ and T-10 where I can just spam 265mm pen APCR through them anywhere.

The layer of spaced armor on their sides is too small to be relied upon, and autoaim puts your reticle below it. On top of that, said APCR still goes through if it hits. So once again, it's basically just right click+left click.

The turrets are nominally superior, but worse gun handling means you have to stay still longer to aim & in practice shooting at an E50's turret is a gamble. Overall I would much rather fight either heavy.

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12 minutes ago, M4A3E8sherman said:

IMO the E50's armor is better than the WZ and the T-10's, the problem is that its status as a technical medium makes assfaces turn and expose their 80mm sides for no real reason.

 

It is a fact that E50 can't use all of its depression unless it is angled at more than 30 degree tho.

which means autopen side.

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11 minutes ago, M4A3E8sherman said:

I say the E50 has better armor because I actually have to aim if the front is pointed towards me, as opposed to the WZ and T-10 where I can just spam 265mm pen APCR through them anywhere.

The layer of spaced armor on their sides is too small to be relied upon, and autoaim puts your reticle below it. On top of that, said APCR still goes through if it hits. So once again, it's basically just right click+left click.

The turrets are nominally superior, but worse gun handling means you have to stay still longer to aim & in practice shooting at an E50's turret is a gamble. Overall I would much rather fight either heavy.

OK, that is your (pretty narrow) vision. Yes, against specific opponents that have 248-270 AP/APCR loaded (because that is their goldspam, and not better penn shell), E 50 armor scheme is better.

But let's up the game, should not we? suppose E 50 meets not the Fatton/apcr spamming tier 9/X med...but tier 9/10 heavy with heat, or Jagtiger/T30 and such...with solid 320-350 apcr...E 100 fatties go right home, while pretty much every other tank you have to aim more not to hit the ground,,,

For me E 50 is just a big target...it has the best gun handling of all opponents in tier I am likely to face, so he will have the shortest exposure of those mentioned...but UFP is huge and can be penned pretty much every time with 311 APCR from tier 8 tds/E 75, and 330/340 HEAT too.

 

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56 minutes ago, KingYoshiLuca said:

WZ-120: 7
WZ-111 1-4: 25
Skoda T-50: 31
AMX 30: 20
Jagdtiger 16
VK 45.02 B: 19
E 50: 28
Conqueror: 28
T54E1: 17 
T30: 9
M46 Patton 39
T-54: 27  
Object 430 II: 27 
T-10: 37
ST-1:  21

 

Jagdtiger: No Turret

Conqueror:  Good Turret + Good Gun

JT is at 13 I knocked it down to 16 earlier.

 

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5 minutes ago, Curo said:

JT is at 13 I knocked it down to 16 earlier.

 

Have you even tried to play it? Like just once, on test server, or other acc? Lack of turret is a hindrance, but traverse is better then ppl who never played it expect, and superstructure resist silver shells just fine.

8,8 cm Pak 43 Jagdtiger is much slower, has worse traverse, engine hitpoints and on the end, gun+hp on real Jag is there to outtrade everyone, who cares about armor.

T30 is much worse in comparison, I play both regularly. 

With Jag i can autoaim at 100 m driving full "speed" at 30 km/h and be pretty sure to hit what I aim.

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