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Elimination: Tier 9 - Skoda Victorious! (COMPLETE)

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16 minutes ago, Snoregasm2 said:

Ah yeah@Rexxie used my quote for the Skoda :awyeah: I just want to say thanks to Rexxie for starting both this topic and the tier 10 topic - it's a great resource for newer players or even experienced players when they argue which tank is better than which.

I do think that tier 8 will be trickier though, as the MM is fucked for SMM Prems and light tanks in randoms, whereas everything at tier 9 and 10 was on an even footing.

I would say that purchasable tier 8 prems should be included (even those on sale rarely, like the KV-5, Mutz and M46 KR), but reward tanks (IS-5, Chieftain) or long removed tanks (Type-59) should not be included. Lights should also be included and people can downvote them due to their MM in randoms if they want (it's a factor to consider just like armour, DPM and hp. Similarly, the FCM, IS-6 and KV-5 will be upboated more due to tier 9 max).

 

Id be ok adding in premium tanks which do not have pref MM and are purchasable in the store on a regular basis

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I wouldn't include anything with different MM, because it confuses the question. No arty, no lights, no pref-MM premiums. Non-pref premiums are arguable - you'd have to convince people not to use "earns good credits" as a reason.

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I was thinking about doing one topic with all premiums and another topic with all the tech tree tanks. Light tanks probably won't make it in - it's debatable whether a true list would include T8 LTs or T7 LTs, and they are super hard to compare with real T8s.

Beyond that there are just a lot of T8 tanks, putting them all into the same thread would be a hell of a list. Ignoring the rarer premiums, I count 52 T8s. We'd either have to do a hundred page thread or make downvotes worth so much that upvoting becomes pointless.

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55 minutes ago, Rexxie said:

I was thinking about doing one topic with all premiums and another topic with all the tech tree tanks. Light tanks probably won't make it in - it's debatable whether a true list would include T8 LTs or T7 LTs, and they are super hard to compare with real T8s.

Beyond that there are just a lot of T8 tanks, putting them all into the same thread would be a hell of a list. Ignoring the rarer premiums, I count 52 T8s. We'd either have to do a hundred page thread or make downvotes worth so much that upvoting becomes pointless.

I like just keeping all the regular tech-tree tier 8s (with no light tanks) as the focus, if we do the list.  That keeps the comparison with the others strictly apples-to-apples, so to speak.

For lights, maybe we could just do a separate tiers 5-8 light tank list, and you can up/down vote one tank per tier?  That should resolve pretty quickly, I would think.

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On 01/06/2016 at 11:21 AM, Rexxie said:

TIER 9 ELIMINATION COMPLETE

Here is the elimination order as if it was a ranking, with the top 10 tanks given a random quote by one of its upvoters for why the tank is good:

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  1. Skoda T 50
    "Take a ridiculously OP tier 10, give it the same gun with different and only slightly worse characteristics and knock off 10 kph and what do you get? The best tank at tier 9 by a country mile." - Snoregasm2
  2. M46 Patton
    "The best tank at finding and exploiting opportunities to deal damage." - M4A3E8Sherman
  3. T-10
    "This tank almost never feels out of place. It can get to good positions, it can peek and snap really well for a heavy, it has decent alpha and really good DPM." - hazzgar
  4. WZ-111 1-4
    "Seriously powerful, goes as fast as a medium tank while hitting harder, having better pen, more hp and better armor." - Gandaran
  5. Conqueror
    "Mighty tank, that has a very reliable gun, decent armor, good hp. It is a jack of all trades and master of none and that's what random cries for."  - Youpub
  6. T-54
    "The most robust tank here, it has the best blend of firepower, mobility, armour, and camo of any tank at tier 9." - Assassin7
  7. E-50
    "It has a gun better suited for sniping as the sniper mediums, while having armour as good as some heavy tanks, 60km/h top speed, decent acceleration and surprising good camo and agility, its OP." - GehakteMolen
  8. Object 430 II
    "Excellent bully that's also capable of dealing with 10's on fairly equal terms. You've got the HEAT, mobility and armor to stay relevant even in the face of big TDs." - Roku
  9. ST-I
    "...When hull down, the only ``weak spot`` is the small off-centre hatch, the rest is +300mm. Combine this with 8 deg gun depression, though hull armour, thick sides, and a actually quite good gun with 340 HEAT pen and you have a tier 9 heavy tank capable of fighting (and beating!) higher tier heavy’s 1 on 1 no problem." - GehakteMolen
  10. VK 45.02 B
    "It might only have one trick, but it does that one trick really well. My favorite tank when man mode is engaged." - FavreFan4ever
  11. T54E1
  12. AMX 30
  13. T30
  14. Jagdtiger
  15. WZ-120
  16. Leopard PT A
  17. Waffen IV
  18. E75
  19. Object 704
  20. Type 61
  21. Centurion 7/1
  22. Tortoise
  23. M103
  24. Conway
  25. Lorraine 40t
  26. SU-122-54
  27. Foch
  28. AMX 50 120
  29. T95
  30. Type 4 Heavy

The next elimination thread will be tier 8!

Oh yay my quote was the random T-54 quote.

Im surprised the Skoda won, actually. Yes its OP as balls, but it doesnt have the holding power or pushing power of other tanks required to win games. 

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12 hours ago, Assassin7 said:

Oh yay my quote was the random T-54 quote.

The most robust tank here? Really? A T-54? Robust:kjugh:

We ranked it what? 6th? 6th is hugely overrated, and yet some folks still cry it's too low? Dafuq ppl? It's barely, barely, a top 10 tank. Maybe not even top 10, if we rank tanks by their potential to win games.

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6 hours ago, Bobi_Kreeg said:

The most robust tank here? Really? A T-54? Robust:kjugh:

We ranked it what? 6th? 6th is hugely overrated, and yet some folks still cry it's too low? Dafuq ppl? It's barely, barely, a top 10 tank. Maybe not even top 10, if we rank tanks by their potential to win games.

Wat?

And the T-54 is the best tank at tier 9 for winning games. It should be higher than 6th, frankly. Barely in the top 10, I dont even know what you are smoking...

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If it's so great why don't people, you know... win it?

Anyway, I'm done arguing over internetz with ppl not providing even a hint of evidence or stats to back their claims. :happyfish:

 

 

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18 hours ago, Assassin7 said:

-snip-

 

17 hours ago, Bobi_Kreeg said:

-snip-

Now, now, the people and the elimination list have spoken. I think the only tank that is unfairly placed is the E 50, fo reasons already explained by @Rexxie. If placed properly it would probably mean the T-54 would be 7th, which is fair based on the opinions provided above.

 

On 6/2/2016 at 1:44 AM, Assassin7 said:

Oh yay my quote was the random T-54 quote.

Im surprised the Skoda won, actually. Yes its OP as balls, but it doesnt have the holding power or pushing power of other tanks required to win games. 

As @RichardNixon pointed out on the last page, that's patently untrue. 2nd winningest tank among unicums, winningest among  superunis. It DOES win more than other tanks, and therefore clearly has what it takes to win.

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2 hours ago, Snoregasm2 said:

As @RichardNixon pointed out on the last page, that's patently untrue. 2nd winningest tank among unicums, winningest among  superunis. It DOES win more than other tanks, and therefore clearly has what it takes to win.

Yes, although portraying that as "just damage" would of course be incorrect. There are TDs that deal nearly as much damage as the T50 in the hands of top players, but are nowhere near as good at winning. The same point applies to the M46.

Fast meds clearly provide something beyond raw personal damage that's important for winning games, even on the current map set and with the dominance of WN8 padding. One assumes that's a mixture of spotting, flanking and ability to choose better targets.

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On 6/3/2016 at 9:20 AM, Bobi_Kreeg said:

If it's so great why don't people, you know... win it?

Anyway, I'm done arguing over internetz with ppl not providing even a hint of evidence or stats to back their claims. :happyfish:

... what?

NCug3Rw.png?1

is that the evidence you wanted? (I would like to point out I was like 1500 recent when I got this tank, and I basically used it to learn how to play high tiers)

4 hours ago, RichardNixon said:

Yes, although portraying that as "just damage" would of course be incorrect. There are TDs that deal nearly as much damage as the T50 in the hands of top players, but are nowhere near as good at winning. The same point applies to the M46.

Fast meds clearly provide something beyond raw personal damage that's important for winning games, even on the current map set and with the dominance of WN8 padding. One assumes that's a mixture of spotting, flanking and ability to choose better targets.

I played the Skoda T50 and loved it,  it was OP as balls. the reason I said it didnt have the pushing or holding power was because it was huge, and has no armour and not very good camo. the 3 round burst is great, but just the single downtime of an autoloader, even if it is short, means that if the enemy is pushing on you, you can only get your clip off and back off, you cant hold them there and stop the push. also leading pushes is hard because of the low armour.

a friend that watches my stream and platoons with me a lot noticed it, he started watching me just before I started the Skoda Grind, and when I was binging the Skoda and the TVP. he said that I chaisnipe and damage farm like a massive bitch - which isn't true as normally Im a super aggressive player. but he was right, in the Skoda and the TVP I had adopted a very chaisnipy playstyle, because thats how playing those tanks works.

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2 hours ago, Assassin7 said:

is that the evidence you wanted? (I would like to point out I was like 1500 recent when I got this tank, and I basically used it to learn how to play high tiers)

I think he's implying that, statistically, you are wrong about both your assumptions on how good the T-54 and Skoda are. He wants you to show proof since there's very little that validates your claims. Why are the stats we have bogus and your gut feeling right? I think its that kinda thing.

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1 hour ago, Rexxie said:

I think he's implying that, statistically, you are wrong about both your assumptions on how good the T-54 and Skoda are. He wants you to show proof since there's very little that validates your claims. Why are the stats we have bogus and your gut feeling right? I think its that kinda thing.

I wasn't trying to argue that it was better than the Skoda though. 

He was trying to argue the fact that I called the T-54 Robust., and said that its barely in the top 10 - which he didn't provide any evidence as to why it shouldnt be there, going by his own logic. 

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7 minutes ago, Assassin7 said:

I wasn't trying to argue that it was better than the Skoda though. 

He was trying to argue the fact that I called the T-54 Robust., and said that its barely in the top 10 - which he didn't provide any evidence as to why it shouldnt be there, going by his own logic. 

No, but you were arguing that the Skoda doesn't have all the stuff required to win games.

Going by WN9's expected WR method, the T-54 is is the 10th best tank for superunis. It's far worse than 10th if you aren't a superunicum. I think that's what he was going by when he said "barely top 10".

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3 minutes ago, Rexxie said:

No, but you were arguing that the Skoda doesn't have all the stuff required to win games.

Going by WN9's expected WR method, the T-54 is is the 10th best tank for superunis. It's far worse than 10th if you aren't a superunicum. I think that's what he was going by when he said "barely top 10".

best tank by what though?

I said the Skoda wasn't as good at winning because of the reasons I posted above. its not BAD at winning - I still won 72% in my grind on it. but the lack of armour, camo, and the natural downtime of it being an autoloader means that, IMO, its not as versatile as the T-54.  

im not going to argue that the T-54 is better, because the Skoda is stupidly OP. but I think, from a solo carry perspective, the T-54 is slightly better because you can do more with it. in a platoon carry situation the Skoda all the way

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24 minutes ago, Assassin7 said:

best tank by what though?

Best tank by winrate. The Skoda is the best tank by winrate, the T-54 is the 10th best.

It's mostly that you're saying a tank that is pretty far behind is winrate is actually #1 at winning. Even though you've added the addendum that you only mean solopubbing, that's still going to require a bit of proof. Bobi was asking why do people not win as much in the T-54 if it is actually so good at winning. Do you think everyone is just platooning in all the tanks that are better than the T-54?

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24 minutes ago, Rexxie said:

Best tank by winrate. The Skoda is the best tank by winrate, the T-54 is the 10th best.

It's mostly that you're saying a tank that is pretty far behind is winrate is actually #1 at winning. Even though you've added the addendum that you only mean solopubbing, that's still going to require a bit of proof. Bobi was asking why do people not win as much in the T-54 if it is actually so good at winning. Do you think everyone is just platooning in all the tanks that are better than the T-54?

the Skoda is inflated though, because the T-54 is extremely old while the Skoda is new, and has STB syndrome where the ratio of good to bad players playing it is skewed. at least, in my experience. (I don't often see people below green playing the Skoda, or the TVP for that matter)

 

also, that was my opinion. I wasn't trying to say it was a fact, I was saying it was my opinion. 

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WN9's method doesn't care much about the population playing a tank, as long as there is a decent one. Whether or not Skoda players are typically better than T-54 players doesn't mean a whole lot to it - the values for it are skill adjusted.

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so what is this WN9 thing even? just the server win rate of the tank or an adjusted value? 

(frankly I have absolutely no interest in WN9 unless it doesn't have the retarded punish you for platooning thing)

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When recent server stats show that T-54 is behind 430v2, M46, E50 and TVP in win rate for the entire population. And when RichardNixon provides expected win rate for unicums by WN9 which basically show the same thing, which is that T-54 is now 5th or 6th medium in tier by wr, I tend to believe it...

If you wanna claim that T-54 is the best vehicle, you better have some serious arguments or you'll just sound like a silly pub praising his favourite tank.

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11 hours ago, Bobi_Kreeg said:

When recent server stats show that T-54 is behind 430v2, M46, E50 and TVP in win rate for the entire population. And when RichardNixon provides expected win rate for unicums by WN9 which basically show the same thing, which is that T-54 is now 5th or 6th medium in tier by wr, I tend to believe it...

Well, you can argue inferior players on recent stats (sorta true, but countered by grind bias) and popularity + tank matching on the expected stats. It's likely that the T-54 should be closer to the 430v2 on raw tank capability: Similar damage output, inferior armour but slightly better spotting. That still leaves it below the M46, T50 and E50 though.

But then I thought this debate broke down with the claim that the T50 is only good for chai-sniping.

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On 27. 5. 2016 at 5:03 PM, hazzgar said:

You say like that's not a big list of advantages. 

Also it's not armor against some t7s and 8's. Some armor maybe if you stand in the middle of the field and do nothing. A properly played t-10 easily bounces trier 10 tanks. A properly played m46 patton bounces t7's 

Dude, yesterday I penned T-10 in my T54ltwt. with standard AP straight to the ufp. An blew his ammo for 970dmg :kwim:

And if youre curious, AP on ltwt. had 175mms of pen.

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I've seen that Rexxie, Bobi and RichardNixon have already done a good job of responding, but I thought I'd throw my 2c in here as well.

On 6/4/2016 at 2:09 AM, Assassin7 said:

but I think, from a solo carry perspective, the T-54 is slightly better because you can do more with it. in a platoon carry situation the Skoda all the way

No. The stats don't lie, the T-54 is inferior, whether solo or platooned, to the T 50 for winning. End of story. Your account specific stats even prove this (72% to 70%), although they mean nothing in this wider debate.

Additionally, the T-54 may be able to, let's say hull down for a limited amount of time, or tank some tier 7s who can't aim, the way the T 50 can't. But you fail to take into account that the T 50 can kill 3 tanks on low enough hp in 3.5 seconds without taking any damage in return, whereas a T-54 would take at least 2 shots to do so. Or that the T 50 can yolo an 800 HP enemy after he fires with no chance of taking any return damage. Or a T 50 can clean up tier 9 and 10 arty with no chance of getting snapshotted whilst reloading. Or numerous other situations where the T 50 is flat out superior to the T-54.

On 6/4/2016 at 3:12 AM, Assassin7 said:

(frankly I have absolutely no interest in WN9 unless it doesn't have the retarded punish you for platooning thing)

This is what I love most about WN9.

As WN8 gained in popularity, W/R started to become highly prized by a certain subset of players who have historically considered themselves 'better' than damage farmers, padders etc (I am, in absolutely no way, accusing you of this @Assassin7 - I've never seen you disparage others' W/R).

The core argument usually revolves around 'I have X W/R, you have Y W/R, all other factors are irrelevant learn to win padder'. Whilst W/R is a useful statistic - just like WN8 is, or DPG - it is not without its flaws. It is, easily, the most 'paddable' statistic in the game. You put a tomato in a platoon with two unicums and he may get a yellow WN8, or green if he is lucky. He will also get a 60%+ W/R, probably more, regardless of how well he plays. The W/R elitists fail to either take this into account or even acknowledge this, whilst sitting pretty on their triple platoon, 64% W/Rs.

Now, with WN9, they can be called out on their 'platoon padding' and judged accordingly for it, the same way someone with high WN8 can be called out if he plays 500 games in an ELC. It will make it easier to make a balanced comparison between someone like me (4% 3 man platoons, 7%  2 man platoons - and even that is on the high side, as those stats haven't changed for like 4 months on the WN9 calculator. EDIT: It's now 3% 3 man platoons and 6% 2 man platoons, I just checked) and someone who platoons 100% of the time.

On 6/4/2016 at 3:07 AM, Rexxie said:

WN9's method doesn't care much about the population playing a tank, as long as there is a decent one. Whether or not Skoda players are typically better than T-54 players doesn't mean a whole lot to it - the values for it are skill adjusted.

What Rexxie said. The metric takes those factors into account.

On 6/4/2016 at 8:16 PM, RichardNixon said:

But then I thought this debate broke down with the claim that the T50 is only good for chai-sniping.

Yeah, agreed. I also saw an argument from Gehakte stating that if you take a T 50 to the hill on Tundra you can get pushed out easier than a T-54, which he stated without any irony at all, seemingly failing to realise that if you play a T 50 exactly like a T-54 you are a) an idiot, b) missing out on about 2k dmg you could do elsewhere if you use your monstrous autoloader like it was intended and c) bound not to win as much as you could.

The T 50 shouldn't be played like a T-54. It should be played like a T 50, and the W/R will come out higher because of it.

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23 minutes ago, mort_CZ said:

Dude, yesterday I penned T-10 in my T54ltwt. with standard AP straight to the ufp. An blew his ammo for 970dmg :kwim:

And if youre curious, AP on ltwt. had 175mms of pen.

Anectodal data is not data. 

Remember that time zeven got frontally penned by a HE t49 in his t110e3. Using that logic t110e3 has no armor.

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