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kolni

The concept of damage farming

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Zup bois, I'm bored on a 3h long trainride and forgot my laptop at home and I've been thinking about this for a while (along with a reaaally big map thread that I haven't gotten around to finish) so here I am. 

The topic here is damage farming and that alone. 

I'll start off by saying that damage farming as it is, is a biproduct of having a poor team. Whether it is due to composition, sheer lack of player skill or map control makes little difference. I'm going to try and describe how you do it, how to see when the situation presents itself and how to proceed from there. 

To me, farming damage is dealing damage that is essentially pointless. It won't change the outcome of a battle except in the rarest of cases when the enemy team lets themselves be farmed, in which it's very productive but those situations are so rare you're usually better off trying to prolong the fight for the damage instead for the win. Why do I say this? Well, obviously you should always try to go for the win, but the concept of farming damage and winning are almost not correlated at all the way I see it unless you are at enough HP to actually come out on top, but yet again, then it's not farming, it's winning. Again, pointless damage since your damage did not net you a win. Winning>farming but all damage farmed is useless damage until it actually wins you the game. Now if you do, it's an amazing achievement and farming damage is usually not the way to go for a win, especially since damage farming is done late game and winning is continuous process from start to finish.

The damage you do when a game is already decided is damage farming. Let's say you're in a Leo 1 on Sand River, it's one of the few maps that are still very good for the tank, so damage should rack up. Now you have done 7k damage, and the score is 10-14 and you're oneshot for every tank left on the enemy team. The damage up until this point have been productive, dealing damage to help your team as much as possible, yet your team obviously failed. Now comes the damage farming part, the part where you try and get as much damage off of a situation you cannot win. Seeing as how not doing damage is even more pointless, everyone farms damage whenever they can since it still improves the chances of winning, although ever so microscopic. 

There's also the other way around. If you have won an engagement and you notice that it is obviously a win, you always try and get as much damage off as possible. However, this damage is obviously pointless since if you don't, someone else will (yet the odds for winning the game decrease ever so slightly) and why it's damage farming. Now you could argue the fact that all damage is damage farmed, but productive damage is not damage for damage sake which what we're going for here.

 

Now once the concept's been explained it's off to identifying when to stop trying to win (this sounds bad, and it probably is but it is a fact that there's situations you cannot come out on top of and that's where this applies) and start damage farming. This obviously only applies to losses since farming in a won game is the same as trying to win the game when the game's been decided. 

Now usually the trick here is very easy. Watching the minimap and assessing map control, comparing it versus tanks alive and if you, like me, plays without team HP bar mods trying to estimate the enemy HP and your teams HP. Now this is both how I decide a win and a loss. Player skill has nothing to do with it at this point. If it is a win, great, proceed as usual or as I will try and explain later, or a loss. If you think the game is lost you might either want to push the boundaries a little and see for yourself if the game really is lost or not, or go straight to the farming part. I'd be careful making that call, especially too early since it can cost you games. 

Much like when being oneshot, damage farming is best done at range. Mediums are obviously superior at this due to combined view range and gun handling/DPM allowing for engagements at range, making you hard to hit or simply not even spotted while still dealing damage. Mobility helps a lot as well since the enemy will constantly be closing in on you, and you want to keep distance. Any selfrespecting statista that played the Hellcat pre-nerf will be familiar with the concept of kiting. It's what I just explained and proved fruitful since you can keep your distance and keep making yourself hard to hit. This is pretty much ideal to grasping as much damage as possible out of a game. Being healthy really helps too since there might not be tanks you cannot outrun, giving you a higher chance of coming out the victor of the game.

Again, it might seem contradictive to keep saying to farm damage until a win while damagefarming is pointless, but it really is as good as I can explain it. It's great for lategame plays but the "winning" play should've been done earlier and hence why they are related, but not by much. 

I also want to add that artillery is your absolute worst enemy, mainly due to not being able to outrun or outplay arties until you start zeroing in on them. And at a position where arty can be shot is almost always a bad position since it's too far from your base. Which me brings me to the final point of the concept. Caps are your worst nightmare, no matter what side of the cap you are on, they end the game early without all possible damage you could have dealt being dealt. 

Small pointers: 

keep moving, don't let them box you in

load gold unless you have paper targets to max penrate

really keep track of the minimap and make use of your teammates. Whether you need their guns or their HP (meatshielding) don't matter but you will almost always have a better time if you stay close. Killing someone takes time and that's time for you to deal damage and/or run away in the meantime. 

 

Once I get home I can start posting scenarios (with pictures) and map specific farm options/flaws if it's requested

 

Thanks for reading, feel free to ask questions or if you're good at this, post some of your own thoughts. :) 

 

Edit: I'm writing on an iPhone so if there's some strange words due to swedish autocorrect mods are free to change them or just tell me and I'll do it.

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I think you're forgetting the fact that this is a game, and the point of playing the game is to, well, play the game. Like, I'm not going to sit around after the game has pretty much been decided because I'm missing out on earning credits, exp, and having "fun" (whether that be reaping the fruits of a victory with some easy kills or fighting tooth and nail to drag my team out of a loss).

Nonetheless I still think you're being a bit unfair with what you call "useless" damage since no victory is absolutely guaranteed until the enemy team is ded. In the opposite case, you shouldn't give up trying to win unless you've actually lost unless if you're some super pessimistic fuck, in which case even playing the game would be something you avoid.

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I agree with most of what you said. However i feel like damage farming is mostly a byproduct of playing for the win. Firstly if i want to win i need to go to strategicly good position and establish some sort of map control. By doing that multiple lines of fire open up and then im able to shoot more than some random bob getting to his favourite sidescraping position in his CDC and waiting there for the enemy to show up. Secondly doing dmg is a really good way to win as long as you do dmg from start of the battle all the way until you die. 

Also if you are dmg whoring you are perserving your HP cuz you want to keep doing that for 15 mins idealy. And a healthy tank is a good way to win 1vs x situations.

To conclude i agree about all the points you mentioned about how and when to farm but i dont agree that its useless dmg cuz just by doing say 3.5kdmg in tier 10 match you will probably win like 56% at least.

@Triple_Sixes no good player would leave the 40hp tank and shoot someone else if he wasnt sure that 40HP tank will die anyways. Good players dont risk the loss for a bit more dmg. They create a situation where they can do the dmg and win. Besides doing 4k dmg and getting high wn8 IS fun ;)

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2 hours ago, Kolni said:

I'll start off by saying that damage farming as it is, is a biproduct of having a poor team. Whether it is due to composition, sheer lack of player skill or map control makes little difference. I'm going to try and describe how you do it, how to see when the situation presents itself and how to proceed from there. 

To me, farming damage is dealing damage that is essentially pointless. It won't change the outcome of a battle except in the rarest of cases when the enemy team lets themselves be farmed, in which it's very productive but those situations are so rare you're usually better off trying to prolong the fight for the damage instead for the win. Why do I say this? Well, obviously you should always try to go for the win, but the concept of farming damage and winning are almost not correlated at all the way I see it unless you are at enough HP to actually come out on top, but yet again, then it's not farming, it's winning. Again, pointless damage since your damage did not net you a win. Winning>farming but all damage farmed is useless damage until it actually wins you the game. Now if you do, it's an amazing achievement and farming damage is usually not the way to go for a win, especially since damage farming is done late game and winning is continuous process from start to finish.

The damage you do when a game is already decided is damage farming. Let's say you're in a Leo 1 on Sand River, it's one of the few maps that are still very good for the tank, so damage should rack up. Now you have done 7k damage, and the score is 10-14 and you're oneshot for every tank left on the enemy team. The damage up until this point have been productive, dealing damage to help your team as much as possible, yet your team obviously failed. Now comes the damage farming part, the part where you try and get as much damage off of a situation you cannot win. Seeing as how not doing damage is even more pointless, everyone farms damage whenever they can since it still improves the chances of winning, although ever so microscopic. 

There's also the other way around. If you have won an engagement and you notice that it is obviously a win, you always try and get as much damage off as possible. However, this damage is obviously pointless since if you don't, someone else will (yet the odds for winning the game decrease ever so slightly) and why it's damage farming. Now you could argue the fact that all damage is damage farmed, but productive damage is not damage for damage sake which what we're going for here.

This description of damage farming seems like an overly complex definition of the damage that doesn't fall into the already hard-to-solve category of what damage in a game is relevant.  That's already a category which often can't be answered without replays or hindsight, which is to say that thinking about that in the middle of a game is pointless.  Unless you are some kind of oracle, you should just be aiming for whatever damage you can get, because until you see the results screen, the safest approach is to treat all damage you have done and could do as damage that helps you approach a game win, regardless of however far ahead or behind you think your chances are.

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Cut away the cancer, continue.

 

 

On topic, I've been trying to follow what you describe in the event when you identify that a win is getting highly unlikely and besides rasing my WN8 with 400-500 it has raised my WR with 4-5%... You cannot avoid winning my staying alive on bad teams to do as much damage as possible despite your team.

 

Ah, well, maybe bad at recognizing losses.

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Damage farming is epitomized by decisions that will further damage rather than helping your team win. The counter is that often clean up damage can also further a farmer's cause. As above, it becomes a struggle to maintain high wn8 without also winning.

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18 hours ago, Kolni said:

I also want to add that artillery is your absolute worst enemy, mainly due to not being able to outrun or outplay arties until you start zeroing in on them. And at a position where arty can be shot is almost always a bad position since it's too far from your base. Which me brings me to the final point of the concept. Caps are your worst nightmare, no matter what side of the cap you are on, they end the game early without all possible damage you could have dealt being dealt.

Seems a little contradictory. If you're tied to your own cap circle because you need to reset in order to farm a few more shots you're not really free to kite. Why not farm the arty instead?

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5 hours ago, steveaus said:

Are as good as losses

...but still different from losses--that's basic Game Theory, albeit not how win rate is determined in this game. You should always play to win, but it's perfectly valid to play for a draw when that's the hand you're dealt. I've drawn more than one match resetting cap from cover in order for the timer to run out knowing I couldn't do enough damage to kill all the tanks on the cap because it was either that or run away and let the opposing team cap out unopposed.

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1 minute ago, ieatcookies said:

 

...but still different from losses--that's basic Game Theory, albeit not how win rate is determined in this game. You should always play to win, but it's perfectly valid to play for a draw when that's the hand you're dealt. I've drawn more than one match resetting cap from cover in order for the timer to run out knowing I couldn't do enough damage to kill all the tanks on the cap because it was either that or run away and let the opposing team cap out unopposed.

Draws aren't wins, give the same XP and credits as losses, and detract from your winrate as much as losses. Effectively losses. I'd rather get more damage in a loss than get less in a draw.

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On 25.5.2016 at 10:17 PM, Kolni said:

Now once the concept's been explained it's off to identifying when to stop trying to win (this sounds bad, and it probably is but it is a fact that there's situations you cannot come out on top of and that's where this applies) and start damage farming. This obviously only applies to losses since farming in a won game is the same as trying to win the game when the game's been decided. 

 

There is the cancer of wn8/damage stat padding. Often unicum/superunicums are seen in situation where match is going badly for team and there is turning point of the match and where he/she has two choices:

a) take high risk, agressive game play. 66% chance to survive, if surviving, it will win game. If win, high damage farm. If die, almost no damage.

b) play safe, farm damage. 100% chance of good damage farm but also loses game 90% of time.

By my experience, higher player wn8 is, more often he takes plan b)

Wondering if superuni clans like Fame has problems with this in CW's? Superuni players used to not taking risks and letting SomeoneElse(tm) take hits and risk in pubs are in CW's where they must take hits for team to win. Is there always same guys last alive and top in damage done? And some others more team-players who always take first hits when needed etc?

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Super unis have super unicum wn8 as well as wr cuz they know when the game is 100% lost and only then they go farming regardless.  But even then killing a low hp tank means you get to live a bit more and shoot a bit more so playing for the win doesnt differ that much from dmg farming.

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22 hours ago, sahtila said:

There is the cancer of wn8/damage stat padding. Often unicum/superunicums are seen in situation where match is going badly for team and there is turning point of the match and where he/she has two choices:

a) take high risk, agressive game play. 66% chance to survive, if surviving, it will win game. If win, high damage farm. If die, almost no damage.

b) play safe, farm damage. 100% chance of good damage farm but also loses game 90% of time.

By my experience, higher player wn8 is, more often he takes plan b)

Wondering if superuni clans like Fame has problems with this in CW's? Superuni players used to not taking risks and letting SomeoneElse(tm) take hits and risk in pubs are in CW's where they must take hits for team to win. Is there always same guys last alive and top in damage done? And some others more team-players who always take first hits when needed etc?

In organized play it doesn't work out like that. Those high risk moves would work fine in pubs if you knew the other guys would also push and could hit their shots. In CW you can be reasonably assured they will. And eating a shot or two isn't scary because you know your healthy guys will rotate in front. There are some who exclusively chai snipe, they get made fun of and sometimes kicked if excessive. But in some maps roles that's just part of the strat.

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On 25 maj 2016 at 9:34 PM, Mami_Momoe said:

I think you're forgetting the fact that this is a game, and the point of playing the game is to, well, play the game. Like, I'm not going to sit around after the game has pretty much been decided because I'm missing out on earning credits, exp, and having "fun" (whether that be reaping the fruits of a victory with some easy kills or fighting tooth and nail to drag my team out of a loss).

Nonetheless I still think you're being a bit unfair with what you call "useless" damage since no victory is absolutely guaranteed until the enemy team is ded. In the opposite case, you shouldn't give up trying to win unless you've actually lost unless if you're some super pessimistic fuck, in which case even playing the game would be something you avoid.

I for one always try and take passive roles such as bats, lets me get away with not doing the stuff I don't really pay attention to during a fight (friendly HP/shielding and overall not being a dick to teammates) and lets me freeplay a lot which is where I know I can do well.

Ofc with CW and RTB experience I have pretty much got it into habit to shield whenever in heavies etc but as you said, unless there's a waffle with 5 secs on rld that'll die if I don't take the hit and it will turn the game, then I might go and shield him. But as far as randoms goes, that waffle probably sucks and'll waste the opportunity I took HP for to give him, I keep trying but evidence presented itself that I am better off not doing it. Yet I don't solo above 65% yet (only reached it playing T8/T9 heavies for 500 games, the OP ones) and I'll keep trying the Garbad way of making use of pubbies instead of 100% meatshielding them, but they always disappoint. 

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On 5/28/2016 at 8:31 AM, CraBeatOff said:

 There are some who exclusively chai snipe, 

What is 'chai snipe?' Base camping sniper?

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6 hours ago, crapcannon said:

What is 'chai snipe?' Base camping sniper?

Chai sniping is basically being at the very edge of the draw box to snipe at people. Normally it is associated with people not being in a particularly effective sniping position and simply getting a lot of damage without actually affecting the game. This sounds contradictory but imagine the sniping position isnt particularly effective right now but will be when allies die and such. Also they will stay in that position and never really close in to use their HP.

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