Jump to content
ChaosGod

Why is the E5 consider op?

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, tajj7 said:

No Heavy tank should be 'snapable' from the front if they are used well.

From what I've found any decent gun handling tier 10 med - E50M. Russians etc. will just snap shot the cupola with HEAT over and over anyway. It's funny but a E5 having a hull down HEAT snap contest against T-62A or 140 will probably lose, but people still claim its OP. 

that's the basic change, before anything with like 180 pen could just snap shot the cupola over and over, now if you want to reliably do that you have to use 280 plus pen rounds, that's about it.

LFP is piss easy to pen even with most tier 8s, especially as most E5s show you the rounded side of it where you'll ammo rack them and pen, often you can pen, ammo rack damage and track E5s.

Personally I've always felt the E5 whine has a lot of basis from players who used to easily roll them over in tier 10 meds and now the E5 can bully them more. 

Which I don't feel is a bad thing, especially in light of the obvious Soviet med dominance, it's the only tank I use that I feel actually threatens the Soviet meds. 

The E5 cupola is one of the most glaring examples why gold ammo is such a horrible mechanic. It is near impenetrable to APCR making the E5 hulldown straight up better than the IS-7 (and its easier to get hulldown in the first place), yet because its possible to pen with HEAT it's suddenly absolutely ok like that.

 

And come one dude, the LFP is not "piss easy to pen", there are three small areas that are reliably penetrable (for 260+ pen), the other areas are pure RNG and require a pen high roll for a lot of tanks and everything next to that is impenetrable. Not to mention those areas are difficult to differentiate on the actual model and with our lovely WoT "accuracy" its hard to even reliably hit them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The E5 is OP in a (very) good player's hands, much the same way as an E100, 50B, T62A, Obj 140, TVP, STB1, M48, Obj 263, etc.

Most (and by most, I mean 95%+) people are not going to be any better at it than they would with anything else.

For as long as I can remember, pre-buff E5 was recommended to new players because it has always been a good all around tank. However, in the hand of a top player, it had serious drawbacks. Paper cupola made it laughable in hull-down fights: literally every single T10 heavy in the game could obliterate it 1v1 (including AMX 50b, thanks burst). Hell, a good player in a T32 could beat an average Joe's E5's ass into the ground in a hull-down fight. So what do you do in a heavy that can't hull down? You move, you flank, you surprise, you outplay... Which is basically medium play style and something 95% of people have always sucked at.

Consequently, many, including myself, considered the E50M (hell, maybe even the E50) a straight up better tank, thanks to vastly superior mobility, increased accuracy, and arguably slightly more trolly armor (pre-buff E5 LFP was basically THE weak spot that even deep dark red players knew about).

With the recent buffs, the E5 is an actual HEAVY tank, and a lot of top players who were used to play it as a medium are somehow shocked they can actually take the heavy role...

I still think the E100 is better at carrying games, the Russian heavies are better at hull-down / holding a spot, the IS4 has far more trolly armor when dealing with pubbies, and the 50B is vastly better at dealing damage. The E5 is what it used to be: good at everything, best at nothing. It had suffered substantial power creep, but now it's back and it's a blast to play.

Also, I agree with OP: I have literally no particular trouble playing against E5s or getting through their armor. A competent player in a 215B still seems like a bigger threat to me than a competent player in an E5 (superior ammo, superior accuracy, superior HP pool, and if used correctly, similarly trolly armor).

 

I'm actually not sure what people want exactly. M48 had suffered insane nerfs and power creep. It was buffed and is now a fun, competitive tank. Hordes are complaining. E5 was good, suffered power creep, was buffed and is now fun and competitive. Pls nerf.

The game is balanced around what the pubbies do. Pubbies in E5 or pubbies in E100 or pubbies in T1 cunningham will all contribute about the same to a win: not much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, breeeze said:

The E5 cupola is one of the most glaring examples why gold ammo is such a horrible mechanic. It is near impenetrable to APCR making the E5 hulldown straight up better than the IS-7 (and its easier to get hulldown in the first place), yet because its possible to pen with HEAT it's suddenly absolutely ok like that.

 

And come one dude, the LFP is not "piss easy to pen", there are three small areas that are reliably penetrable (for 260+ pen), the other areas are pure RNG and require a pen high roll for a lot of tanks and everything next to that is impenetrable. Not to mention those areas are difficult to differentiate on the actual model and with our lovely WoT "accuracy" its hard to even reliably hit them.

Ammo with varied degrees of penetration for a higher credit cost is a great meta. It requires more thought and planning to do the max damage possible while still profiting. I think it should be expanded even further. It makes playing as the low tier funner to deal with.

 

E5 is not OP.   Good players are good in it. Bad players are bad it in.  Look at my stats. I suck in mine. But Im getting better in it. Damage is way up over the last 20 fights. Learning not to die. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LFP is an autobounce in most parts. There's a small patch you can reliably pen but if you are off by a mm, it's a bounce.

Cupola (right side assuming you are facing it) is the only way to reliably pen. With standard rounds its 50/50 and only gold rounds make this a 75/25 pen chance. Once again if you are off by a little amount it's an autobounce.

The number of times some shitter has killed me because I got RNG'd shooting the weakspots is far more than the number of times I got 183'd pre-nerf.

Compare the E5 to other heavies. IS-7 has a trash tier hull now, E-100 is autopen for good players, Maus is free farm, 215B - despite good gunhandling + dpm) suffers from overmatch and fires, IS-4 is also autopen, 113 turret is trash and so on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Fulcrous said:

LFP is an autobounce in most parts. There's a small patch you can reliably pen but if you are off by a mm, it's a bounce.

Cupola (right side assuming you are facing it) is the only way to reliably pen. With standard rounds its 50/50 and only gold rounds make this a 75/25 pen chance. Once again if you are off by a little amount it's an autobounce.

The number of times some shitter has killed me because I got RNG'd shooting the weakspots is far more than the number of times I got 183'd pre-nerf.

Very good review of the E5 armour. All that you described is a perfect example of how a good E5 player uses his tank to decrease an oponents dpm. Up you go ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, reking_havoc said:

Ammo with varied degrees of penetration for a higher credit cost is a great meta. It requires more thought and planning to do the max damage possible while still profiting. I think it should be expanded even further. It makes playing as the low tier funner to deal with.

Love how you conveniently forgot the huge difference between someone who has prem account + prem tanks and someone who doesn't. Whoops, there goes your entire argument...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, reking_havoc said:

Ammo with varied degrees of penetration for a higher credit cost is a great meta. It requires more thought and planning to do the max damage possible while still profiting. I think it should be expanded even further. It makes playing as the low tier funner to deal with

It requires more thought and planning

You can't be serious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It could always be the tanks I play that have rather high pen rates (T34 / M103 / Jagdpanther II) but i only bounce maybe 1 out of every 7 shots on the T110E5s lower plate. Are we referring to Russians lack of gun depression making it hard to hit the weak spots on the lower plate? I just have not experience any real struggle to pen it. The side of the lower plate near the tracks are usually auto pens for me regardless of angling so I stand by it being easy to pen. Have not ran into unicums in the T110E5 yet but have run into a fair amount of green and blue players and still don't struggle to pen. Would be interesting to be face hugged by a E5 have not experienced that yet so I can't relate to that struggle. I know the few times I have had a Is-7 face hug me their is nothing I can do to it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the main reason its considered OP is because, sorta like the T22, if you know what you are doing it allows you do do relatively retarded things and get away with it, just because its got troll armour. For example on stream a while back I got convinced to push bridge on mountain pass from north spawn in the E5. So I said fuck it and did, i had a platoon mate in a 183 sitting at the other end, and I yolod accross. At the other side I found a JPE, a 263, and I think it was a T34. I won the bridge with around 4K damage, 5K blocked, and on full HP. The JPE alone bounced 3 off me. My platoon mate in the 183 did pretty much nothing except ensure they all didnt push around on me - he did like 800 damage. I couldnt of done that if I wasnt in an E5.

A few weeks later I was in a platoon of E5s, and got mountain pass north spawn again. So we yolod bridge again. This time they had a JPE, a waffle, and various other things that came to help them. We won the bridge with all 3 of our platoon on most of our HP, and so many dead tanks we couldnt get through and had to drive around

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3.06.2016 at 8:19 PM, NThirtyTwo said:

The E5 is OP in a (very) good player's hands, much the same way as an E100, 50B, T62A, Obj 140, TVP, STB1, M48, Obj 263, etc.

Most (and by most, I mean 95%+) people are not going to be any better at it than they would with anything else.

For as long as I can remember, pre-buff E5 was recommended to new players because it has always been a good all around tank. However, in the hand of a top player, it had serious drawbacks. Paper cupola made it laughable in hull-down fights: literally every single T10 heavy in the game could obliterate it 1v1 (including AMX 50b, thanks burst). Hell, a good player in a T32 could beat an average Joe's E5's ass into the ground in a hull-down fight. So what do you do in a heavy that can't hull down? You move, you flank, you surprise, you outplay... Which is basically medium play style and something 95% of people have always sucked at.

Consequently, many, including myself, considered the E50M (hell, maybe even the E50) a straight up better tank, thanks to vastly superior mobility, increased accuracy, and arguably slightly more trolly armor (pre-buff E5 LFP was basically THE weak spot that even deep dark red players knew about).

With the recent buffs, the E5 is an actual HEAVY tank, and a lot of top players who were used to play it as a medium are somehow shocked they can actually take the heavy role...

I still think the E100 is better at carrying games, the Russian heavies are better at hull-down / holding a spot, the IS4 has far more trolly armor when dealing with pubbies, and the 50B is vastly better at dealing damage. The E5 is what it used to be: good at everything, best at nothing. It had suffered substantial power creep, but now it's back and it's a blast to play.

Also, I agree with OP: I have literally no particular trouble playing against E5s or getting through their armor. A competent player in a 215B still seems like a bigger threat to me than a competent player in an E5 (superior ammo, superior accuracy, superior HP pool, and if used correctly, similarly trolly armor).

 

I'm actually not sure what people want exactly. M48 had suffered insane nerfs and power creep. It was buffed and is now a fun, competitive tank. Hordes are complaining. E5 was good, suffered power creep, was buffed and is now fun and competitive. Pls nerf.

The game is balanced around what the pubbies do. Pubbies in E5 or pubbies in E100 or pubbies in T1 cunningham will all contribute about the same to a win: not much.

A good player won't try to dig out a t32 in full hull down position no matter what tank he is driving. Just one thing worth remembering. 

 

Fv215b is better for 60 something players than E5. I complained about FV here and someone posted WR curves. But overall I think the tank now is better for noobs than it was before. A good player will be able to mitigate pre buff e5 weakness. Now a worse player can playing because he doesn't have to. 

 

btw. I have no idea why you have the 263 on your list. The tank is rather straightforward in play.

19 hours ago, ChaosGod said:

It could always be the tanks I play that have rather high pen rates (T34 / M103 / Jagdpanther II) but i only bounce maybe 1 out of every 7 shots on the T110E5s lower plate. Are we referring to Russians lack of gun depression making it hard to hit the weak spots on the lower plate? I just have not experience any real struggle to pen it. The side of the lower plate near the tracks are usually auto pens for me regardless of angling so I stand by it being easy to pen. Have not ran into unicums in the T110E5 yet but have run into a fair amount of green and blue players and still don't struggle to pen. Would be interesting to be face hugged by a E5 have not experienced that yet so I can't relate to that struggle. I know the few times I have had a Is-7 face hug me their is nothing I can do to it. 

T34 and JPII are not high pen tanks. We are talking about performance vs t10. 

Also if you pen 7/8 out of a tank where even top players don't do that it only means you are either aiming too long and waiting for perfect shots therefore lowering your dpm which means the e5 already won or you suffer from confirmation bias.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/3/2016 at 8:24 AM, Megrin said:

It's like what happens when a tank with Armored Warfare style weakspots gets into WoT.

SipooR8.png

Like this is pretty much all the area your enemy get to shoot at. While even the best guns in the game will struggle to have hit it reliably since you are pretty mobile as a heavy and gets -8 gun depression?

Plus all the gun handling, HEAT, DPM stuff and you get a pretty dank OP tank.

Pretty much this. It can easily hull down gentle curves/hills with its gun depression and once that happens good luck trying to pen it from mid to long range because people generally can't apart from lucky hits. It also doesn't help that I find myself loading gold rounds to pen the cupola because I don't want to risk bouncing standard. I tend to move forward and back while moving my turret around and it makes it very tricky for people to hit. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, hazzgar said:

A good player won't try to dig out a t32 in full hull down position no matter what tank he is driving. Just one thing worth remembering. 

Only when the gun is depressed or long range. Hulldown with rock / gun not depressed, you have cupola and shot trap problem on level ground, it is small, but accurate guns will challenge you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Unavailebow said:

Only when the gun is depressed or long range. Hulldown with rock / gun not depressed, you have cupola and shot trap problem on level ground, it is small, but accurate guns will challenge you.

You are a t10, he is a t8. Unless you can shoot those reliably, every time you miss you take yourself out of a game because of a tank 2 triers lower. That is a mistake and I have not seen any top player do that. To hit him every time he must be stationary ie a moron and that makes him even less important to loose your time on him. In e5 it's 10x better to yolo him unless he has support but then just shoot the support not the t32, kill it and then yolo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, hazzgar said:

A good player won't try to dig out a t32 in full hull down position no matter what tank he is driving. Just one thing worth remembering. 

 

 

10 hours ago, Unavailebow said:

Only when the gun is depressed or long range. Hulldown with rock / gun not depressed, you have cupola and shot trap problem on level ground, it is small, but accurate guns will challenge you.

 

8 hours ago, hazzgar said:

You are a t10, he is a t8. Unless you can shoot those reliably, every time you miss you take yourself out of a game because of a tank 2 triers lower. That is a mistake and I have not seen any top player do that. To hit him every time he must be stationary ie a moron and that makes him even less important to loose your time on him. In e5 it's 10x better to yolo him unless he has support but then just shoot the support not the t32, kill it and then yolo.

 

Did this just turn into a T32 vs E5 thing? No. Bad you. Stop.

Point was to emphasis that pre-buff E5 was total shit hull-down and could be defeated surprisingly easily by a decent hull-down capable T8.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, NThirtyTwo said:

 

 

 

Did this just turn into a T32 vs E5 thing? No. Bad you. Stop.

Point was to emphasis that pre-buff E5 was total shit hull-down and could be defeated surprisingly easily by a decent hull-down capable T8.

Pre buff E5 was never considered shit. It didn't even perform like shit. It just didn't have an abusable quality about it. I don't get why people think not amazing tanks are automatically shit. Maus and a few other tanks are much worse than a pre buff e5. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, hazzgar said:

Pre buff E5 was never considered shit. It didn't even perform like shit. It just didn't have an abusable quality about it. I don't get why people think not amazing tanks are automatically shit. Maus and a few other tanks are much worse than a pre buff e5. 

 

E5 was never shit. It was a decent tank. Very good for new payers.

It was shit hull-down though. Big time.

Read. Before you quote me and reply like I said something I did not, preferably. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, NThirtyTwo said:

 

E5 was never shit. It was a decent tank. Very good for new payers.

It was shit hull-down though. Big time.

Read. Before you quote me and reply like I said something I did not, preferably. 

It was never shit hull down. It was just mediocre hull down. It still had enough gun handling, acceleration to minimise exposure. And yes it had a tumor but it was still better than other tanks with overall weaker turrets. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/3/2016 at 4:38 PM, breeeze said:

The E5 cupola is one of the most glaring examples why gold ammo is such a horrible mechanic. It is near impenetrable to APCR making the E5 hulldown straight up better than the IS-7 (and its easier to get hulldown in the first place), yet because its possible to pen with HEAT it's suddenly absolutely ok like that.

 

And come one dude, the LFP is not "piss easy to pen", there are three small areas that are reliably penetrable (for 260+ pen), the other areas are pure RNG and require a pen high roll for a lot of tanks and everything next to that is impenetrable. Not to mention those areas are difficult to differentiate on the actual model and with our lovely WoT "accuracy" its hard to even reliably hit them.

Cupola is 50/50 with normal ammo and cheese with HEAT, plus it's huge.

And yes LFP is easy, you can pen it with like 200 pen guns, unless you are like 300m away by which point firing at any tier 10 heavy is pointless. 

I fight and fight with the E5 and if my LFP is showing people pen it, when i see E5s not hull down I reliably pen their LFP.

When I go hull down meds stomp the cupola with ease with HEAT, even when I'm moving and against hull down Soviet meds there are far more of a pain. I was battling a hull down E50M the other day, he snapped my cupola like 4 times out of 6, whilst I penned his turret front like 3 times out of 6, that is the equivalent size you are hitting, E50M turret front except you can do that with AP and everyone else is shooting HEAT at the cupola. Except the meds have better DPM and better gun handling. 

The tank's armour works against rushed shots or at range, generally against those firing standard rounds.

Which to me applies to all armoured tier 10 heavies pretty much, close range any decent player facing you will spam HEAT at you, with only a hull down IS7 able to reliably whether the storm. 

You don't bounce reliably, you bounce because of RNG and forcing misses, which like the other guy said the armour is there to basically slow the other guy's DPM down.

That is what the E5's armour does, slows your DPM down, by most tier 10 meds have got DPM to spare and ones's like the T-62A or 140 can use their armour to reduce your DPM almost as well.

140s block like 32- 33% of shots fired at them, the E5 gets about 15% more out of it's armour whilst being massively slower, way less agile, with worse gun handling and a lot less DPM, much smaller and with better camo. 

I never get why people moan about an E5, yet the 140 just yolos around doing everything better and no one moans about it.

140s are way more annoying to fight, they are this tiny target covered in auto-bounce zones that hover across the ground and snap shot you on the move.  Yet people moan about a slow, fat US Heavy that only works hull down and even then a double tap on 2 and you'll melt his HP down even when  it's in its strongest position. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, tajj7 said:

Cupola is 50/50 with normal ammo and cheese with HEAT, plus it's huge.

And yes LFP is easy, you can pen it with like 200 pen guns, unless you are like 300m away by which point firing at any tier 10 heavy is pointless. 

I fight and fight with the E5 and if my LFP is showing people pen it, when i see E5s not hull down I reliably pen their LFP.

When I go hull down meds stomp the cupola with ease with HEAT, even when I'm moving and against hull down Soviet meds there are far more of a pain. I was battling a hull down E50M the other day, he snapped my cupola like 4 times out of 6, whilst I penned his turret front like 3 times out of 6, that is the equivalent size you are hitting, E50M turret front except you can do that with AP and everyone else is shooting HEAT at the cupola. Except the meds have better DPM and better gun handling. 

The tank's armour works against rushed shots or at range, generally against those firing standard rounds.

Which to me applies to all armoured tier 10 heavies pretty much, close range any decent player facing you will spam HEAT at you, with only a hull down IS7 able to reliably whether the storm. 

You don't bounce reliably, you bounce because of RNG and forcing misses, which like the other guy said the armour is there to basically slow the other guy's DPM down.

That is what the E5's armour does, slows your DPM down, by most tier 10 meds have got DPM to spare and ones's like the T-62A or 140 can use their armour to reduce your DPM almost as well.

140s block like 32- 33% of shots fired at them, the E5 gets about 15% more out of it's armour whilst being massively slower, way less agile, with worse gun handling and a lot less DPM, much smaller and with better camo. 

I never get why people moan about an E5, yet the 140 just yolos around doing everything better and no one moans about it.

140s are way more annoying to fight, they are this tiny target covered in auto-bounce zones that hover across the ground and snap shot you on the move.  Yet people moan about a slow, fat US Heavy that only works hull down and even then a double tap on 2 and you'll melt his HP down even when  it's in its strongest position. 

 

 

1. Slowing DPM is what ALL heavies are for. 

2. Comparing it to a 140 is pointless. Completely different roles

3. Comparing a heavy to meds is also stupid since being a heavy it allows you to contest some parts of the maps meds cant. Remember those games when you see you got no heavies and enemies have 3 top trier ? Many current maps mean you are fucked with that comp.

4. We are talking about pub play. In pub play most people don't run will full sprem and even if they can't pen you some of them will still not switch to heat. 

5. Sorry but you can't negate the RNG inducing sheme of e5 armor and in another post you say 140 is very RNG inducing so it's good. 

6. Your argument could be summed up by meds>heavies because speed + DPM > armor + alpha. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...