Jump to content

Recommended Posts

14 hours ago, GehakteMolen said:

1: A unangled maus is an easy kill, if the E100 cant kill him, hes a fucking moron, i can kill maus head on with AP easy-peasy

2: L2p issue`s, if you cant penetrate heavys from the side with a medium you play bad and should feel bad, only a maus and E100 had side armor, and thats it, IS7 has large parts 100mm, and rest is bs (like it is on live server...) IS4 has 160mm, which is only good when angled and the rest? 100mm at most, perhaps 120

The whole purpose of the maus should be: R-r-r and kill anyone too stupid to shoot weakspots or flank, that the maus was no longer capable of doing so was stupid, WG is now restoring balance...

Same most mediums can no longer sit redline and snipe, if you wanna snipe, play an Obj 268 or Amx-30, dont use an T62. Tanks have ``roles``, and this is good, so tier 10 tanks are now different, like how tier 9 tanks are different (and on every map every role is present, again l2p)

This whole rebalance is a massive meta shift, and it greatly rewards skill, good player adapt and (ab)use the new strengths and weaknesses, all those easy mode boring generic all-round tanks should have been nerf-raped long ago, and its about time WG finally does. Skill is using a tank with limited capabilities and win games with it, winning with an ISU is skill, with an IS3 is not...

There are enourmous amount of so called ``unicums`` who are no unicum, they are gold-spamming statpadders, and this rebalance will show it, pls show me your skill when your driving an Obj 268 on Ensk or an Leopard or Himmelsdorf,  im quite sure i can pull my weight, but given all the complains on official forum, reddit and also here, it seems many ``good players`` are not that good afterall (when they cant gold spam, redline camp and (ab)use the fotm OP tank)...

 

Its the other way around, when there are 7 tanks of the same tier, half the tanks in the other team is equal to you, it will greatly increase performance when bottom tier, no more games with 6 tier 10, 5 tier 9 and 4 tier 8, where you are nicely bottom with your tier 8...

WG also wont touch the penetration of tier 7/8 tanks, so not much will change their, the penetration drop is shell specific, i assume they will nerf a few outliers with very high AP pen, but thats it, tier 8 tanks are now capable of hitting tier 10 tanks, and due to mobility and alpha dmg nerfs they will far even better.

Sandbox will decrease the gap between tier 8 and 10

Platoons do require rework, but WG can always do the following:

  • Ban arty platoons (they hinted on that already)
  • Ban scout platoons
  • Give platoons worse mm, this was also the case in beta, platoons already give more exp, so perhaps this was a first step, platoon gives more exp and harder matches (WG however wants to promote platoons, so giving them worse mm migth not be ideal)

and i really, really doubt they will nerf tier 7 or 8 penetration like how they nerfed tier 10, this rebalance is about making the gap between tier 8 and 10 smaller, not bigger...

I agree, the fact WG un-did the gold ammo damage nerf is ridiculous, however gold ammo got still butchered hard. Atm i shoot almost only HEAT with E100, with sandbox penetration values, i will change to full AP / HE load out, gold ammo is only ``good`` / usefull when you have:

  • Heat
  • Good accuracy
  • significant penetration gap between heat and AP

APCR is awefull, there is almost zero reason to use it, the penetration on range is perhaps 10-20mm higher as AP, while most tanks with HEAT have suchs bad accuracy / bad gun handling that hitting stuff at long range is stupid hard (heat penetration is so low, you can no longer yolo blaze everything you hit and heat still get shafted by spaced armor and so). On close range HEAT has almost no penetration advantage over AP, which makes it almost pointless to use anyway...

No a Maus shouldn't, a Maus should be a roadblock, a meatshield when used in a proper position and used with brains.

RRR is not brains, it's a mistake that deserves to be massively punished so the player learns never to do such a stupid thing again.

I've watched sandbox, I've seen the pen drops, Maus has 185mm of armour at 90 degree, if you hit the side of the turret this is like 230-240, if you hit the space armour again it's like 230-240.

That is flat and 90 degrees, at like a 10-15 degree angle you are suddenly needing 210 plus minimum.

So suddenly you are ruling out shots at like 250M from most tier 10 guns, even the ones they have buffed to 290 pen are still doing sub 200 at like 400m and that is before 25% RNG is taken into account.

The Russian meds are going to be rolling in the low 100s for penetration at like 400m.

That is just stupid. 

A Maus sitting side on in the open against tier 10 guns, should be butchered, in these changes it will not only get away with it, it will thrive in such a stupid position.

That is crap play rewarded and makes utter nonsense of your 'skill claims'. 

Tanks having roles is not good, especially a class - mediums that are supposed to be multi purpose, they are supposed to be jack of all trades.

Making the best of your tank in the situations you find yourself in <- that is skill, that is thought, micro-positioning, using strengths, mitigating weaknesses and leveraging those strengths against enemies weaknesses. That is good play, learnign a tank and learning how different tanks within the same class play differently is part of the charm of the game.

A 113 being different from an IS7 that is different from an E5 that is different from a 215b is a good thing, that is variety, that is fun, that is what the game should be about. 

Being shoved into limited roles is for morons.

And most of the morons in this game will still fail at that.

L2P is irrelevant, we won't need to learn to play because the game will be so dumb and limited, that is what these sandbox changes are, a massive dumbing down of the game to placate morons.

And don't give me that red line sniping BS, you sound like the bobs on the general forums, it's utter nonsense, there are hardly any sniper positions on the maps as it is.

And sniping should be a viable role, it's what some tanks are supposed to do, except WG wants everyone brawling at 50m. 

Where is the learn to play requirements of HT players? Where is the requirement for them to angle, hull down, bait shots, use terrain, pick the right times to be defensive and when to push?

I'm not even that good, but even for me E100, IS7, E5 etc. are already easy mode IMO for pushing pubbies to win games, take weakened arty and nerfed premium ammo ALONE and I'd probably jump 5% WR in them without playing any better.

Hell take arty out I'd probably manage 5%, with prem ammo changed I'd probably see a 10% increase in WR.

Heavies are already easy to play and massively forgiving in this current meta, 75% of maps already encourage brawling, have protected corridors, have barely any sight lines over 200m.

And now we are going to make flanking and long range fire even more useless on the few maps you can actually do it? 

That is breaking stuff that doesn't need to fixed, typical WG, don't fix the actual problems, break the core gameplay that has been working and liked for years. 

As for tier 8, the 3-5-7 will just make the game more of lottery, sure your tier 8 can fight more tier 8s but you'll still get rolled by the 10s and even easier if these changes go through.

That means you roll a dice as to who your top tiers are, because now you are way more reliant on them. Having 5 tier 10s and one is an idiot you might be able to carry that, having 3 top tiers and one is an idiot that is 33% of your top tier down.

3-5-7 just makes playing tier 10 easier, just means Steve in his IS7 can roll over tier 8s even easier with less effort and less skill. I mean as if having no one able to pen you from more than 50m isn't easy enough.

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, tajj7 said:

...That is breaking stuff that doesn't need to fixed, typical WG, don't fix the actual problems, break the core gameplay that has been working and liked for years...

Sorry, but you do not make much sense to me. There is no "core gameplay" that can "simply be fixed" without touching the fundamental roles and performances of tanks and ammo (prem and otherwise).

Tanks, Tanksroles and Maps aka Range of Engagements

The fundamental problem of WoT is currently that you can't be agressive unless you are VERY good. As almost all players aren't very good agressiveness is kill for them. WG tried to "fix" this by map design, which is stupid as it promotes boring linear gameplay. Almost all maps now are corridors, almost all maps have exactly one spot you should be. Boring.

In order to fix this they MUST make the game easier on the average player. There is no other way. Stick nose out should not be immediate and brutal death 9/10 times.

In order to create a wide variety of maps they also must limit the ranges of engagements.

So WGs vision is clear. Heavies are the best tanks for mediocre players as they are quite forgivable but still require some basic skill to be ok in. TDs are for the real baddies. Meds and Lights are for the better players. This means games should be mostly heavies with a few of the rest.

It has been like this since the start of the game. Heavies where the only tanks initially to run to tier X and SerB named the inclusion of other tier X tankslines "a mistake".

This is the main problem now and WG is gonna fix it.

Matchmaking and Progression

I don't know wether you played WoWS but if you do you will notice something right away: tier differences are NOT as harsh as in WoT!

But this in turn lessens the eagerness to grind a tier X! I play WoWS currently and my desire to reach tier X is way less than in WoT because of this. I feel quite comfortable in my tier VIII Atago in a tier X match. Part of this is better MM though, the pyramid is still not on it's head and game economy is still brutal on tier X ships (very high cost) so most players play low tier regularily.

In WoT, grinding is currently awful!

So while in WoT you have a STRONG incentive to go to at least tier IX it comes at the cost of enjoyment. Grinding tier VII and VIII tanks is really bad because you are mostly powerless and you are getting to tier IX and X constantly (especially when platooning).

One way to lessen this is exactly what WG proposes, 3-5-7. So as a tier VIII you have at least 7 enemies you can take on equal footage. If they also adjust pen and hitpoints this might rekindle my interest of getting into new lines.

Tier and player balance

We can bitch as much as we want but we are only 1% of all the players that play WoT. Ofc, T-62A is balanced for a noob but anyone at least slightly above average will realize fast that this tank is better than most others. For sheer power there are like 5 tanks in the game that you should use, the rest is garbage compared to that.Look to what most SuperUnicums are driving to generate their recent 5k WN8 and tell em again that these tanks are balanced and all WG needs to do is to fix "core gameplay"...

And as much as it hurts initially to be deprived of these 5 "can do it all" tanks, likely at least one of them is your personal favorite, it will, again, open up the game. No longer will you need to grind games in these in order to feel competitive. No longer are good tanks always slightly tanky meds or meddy heavies and nothing else. In the bright future you can go and play heavies or even TDs and still have the feeling of not only different but also viable gameplay.

This is what could make me come back to WoT.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jaegaer said:

Sorry, but you do not make much sense to me. There is no "core gameplay" that can "simply be fixed" without touching the fundamental roles and performances of tanks and ammo (prem and otherwise).

Tanks, Tanksroles and Maps aka Range of Engagements

The fundamental problem of WoT is currently that you can't be agressive unless you are VERY good. As almost all players aren't very good agressiveness is kill for them. WG tried to "fix" this by map design, which is stupid as it promotes boring linear gameplay. Almost all maps now are corridors, almost all maps have exactly one spot you should be. Boring.

In order to fix this they MUST make the game easier on the average player. There is no other way. Stick nose out should not be immediate and brutal death 9/10 times.

In order to create a wide variety of maps they also must limit the ranges of engagements.

So WGs vision is clear. Heavies are the best tanks for mediocre players as they are quite forgivable but still require some basic skill to be ok in. TDs are for the real baddies. Meds and Lights are for the better players. This means games should be mostly heavies with a few of the rest.

It has been like this since the start of the game. Heavies where the only tanks initially to run to tier X and SerB named the inclusion of other tier X tankslines "a mistake".

This is the main problem now and WG is gonna fix it.

Matchmaking and Progression

I don't know wether you played WoWS but if you do you will notice something right away: tier differences are NOT as harsh as in WoT!

But this in turn lessens the eagerness to grind a tier X! I play WoWS currently and my desire to reach tier X is way less than in WoT because of this. I feel quite comfortable in my tier VIII Atago in a tier X match. Part of this is better MM though, the pyramid is still not on it's head and game economy is still brutal on tier X ships (very high cost) so most players play low tier regularily.

In WoT, grinding is currently awful!

So while in WoT you have a STRONG incentive to go to at least tier IX it comes at the cost of enjoyment. Grinding tier VII and VIII tanks is really bad because you are mostly powerless and you are getting to tier IX and X constantly (especially when platooning).

One way to lessen this is exactly what WG proposes, 3-5-7. So as a tier VIII you have at least 7 enemies you can take on equal footage. If they also adjust pen and hitpoints this might rekindle my interest of getting into new lines.

Tier and player balance

We can bitch as much as we want but we are only 1% of all the players that play WoT. Ofc, T-62A is balanced for a noob but anyone at least slightly above average will realize fast that this tank is better than most others. For sheer power there are like 5 tanks in the game that you should use, the rest is garbage compared to that.Look to what most SuperUnicums are driving to generate their recent 5k WN8 and tell em again that these tanks are balanced and all WG needs to do is to fix "core gameplay"...

And as much as it hurts initially to be deprived of these 5 "can do it all" tanks, likely at least one of them is your personal favorite, it will, again, open up the game. No longer will you need to grind games in these in order to feel competitive. No longer are good tanks always slightly tanky meds or meddy heavies and nothing else. In the bright future you can go and play heavies or even TDs and still have the feeling of not only different but also viable gameplay.

This is what could make me come back to WoT.

There very much is core gameplay it's been here for 5 years, it's evolved a bit but it's still here.

It's what we are all playing and why thousands are playing it and still playing, it's very existence and the fact it is good is the sole reason players have thousands upon thousands of games.

You don;t break what is already working. 

Quote

The fundamental problem of WoT is currently that you can't be agressive unless you are VERY good

Nonsense, the very worst can't do this, they are camp or yolo, but the greens certainly can, they know how to push, they know how to meatshield in their heavies, a lot of players recognise overload when they see it.

They can see 2 v 1s, I see this all the time, it's those mini-periods of teamwork that make remember there are some competent humans out there and they don;t have a blue or purple number above their name.

They don't always make the right decision, they don't always execute it correctly, sometimes they miss the timing of it, does not mean they can't do it.

The core fundamental many players lack is consistency.  I played for about two years with a guy who was yellow overall with early green recents, he could play well when he put his mind to it, he could play aggressively when we wanted to it and it worked but often what let him down was he mis-read the situation, pushing instead of falling back, idling too long when he should have been moving forward.

Quote

In order to fix this they MUST make the game easier on the average player. There is no other way. Stick nose out should not be immediate and brutal death 9/10 times.

 

It isn't. 

The game is already easy to get into, you have 25% RNG, you have massively forgiving tanks with simple playstyles.

the best games are easy to pick up and hard to master, that is WOT and it's why it;s been so successful. 

Make it an easy and you'll kill the game for the most committed players, and I do not mean just the 1% I mean all the greens and recent greens out there learning, improving, working stuff out. 

Dumb the game down, take the depth away, you take away the game. The gameplay goes.

Star Wars Battlefront, a game that has been out 9 months is dying, why? because to cash in on Star Wars 'fans' they ditched the gameplay depth and tactical elements that had made Battelfield a great success to have an easy access game that non-gamers could play.

And what happened? After the initial 'ooh it's pretty' and 'ooh it's star wars' feeling rubbed off most people realised they were playing a shooter that made COD look complex and deep, there is no content there, no replay ability there, so people stopped playing.

You'll do the exact same here if they do these dumbing down changes. WG have a winning formula of gameplay that needs tweaking, not re-working. If you lose that tactical elements, those learning curves, if the game is too simple, too forgiving you lose the point to keep playing the game for a huge amount of players and those players are the ones buying your premium tanks believe me.

When I got to about 5k games I was easily still green, didn't have many premiums, if I was playing this dumb heavy tank game they are proposing there is no way I'd still be here after 17k games, there'd be no interest for me, nothing to learn, I don't want to be told how to play, I don't want to forced to play some generic role, I want to find that stuff out on my own, I want tanks that have different characteristics not to grind a 215b and find it's basically a re-skinned E5. 

I am willing to bet there are many that think like me because I see them all the time/ 

The other thing is crap players don't only play heavy tanks, there are bobs who's favourite tank is a Leo, there are those who like their TDs, there are those who like the 113, do you think they are going to like this?

Quote

It has been like this since the start of the game. Heavies where the only tanks initially to run to tier X and SerB named the inclusion of other tier X tankslines "a mistake".

This is the main problem now and WG is gonna fix it.

 Yeh and Serb still thinks arty prevents camping, he's a complete idiot who is clueless. 

Have more lines run to tier 10 was a great idea, it brought a great variety of tanks, yeh sure some were massively OP but that's a balance issue not a problem with the fundamental idea. 

Quote

I don't know wether you played WoWS but if you do you will notice something right away: tier differences are NOT as harsh as in WoT!

Yeh there are, there are just way less tier 10 vehicles around due to the playerbase and the terrible grind and economies to get to tier 10. You don't get tier 10 games with lots of tier 10s because there just aren't the players there to make those games. 

But a Yamato can still stomp over tier 8s with ease. WOWs does not have much to teach WOT, the game is limited and lacks the depth of mechanics WOT has hence why it's not as popular. It appeals to ship fans, but it doesn't appeal to gamers because the gameplay is poor and simple, at it's route WOWs is just a DPM battle with a lot of RNG thrown in.

 

Quote

We can bitch as much as we want but we are only 1% of all the players that play WoT. Ofc, T-62A is balanced for a noob but anyone at least slightly above average will realize fast that this tank is better than most others. For sheer power there are like 5 tanks in the game that you should use, the rest is garbage compared to that.Look to what most SuperUnicums are driving to generate their recent 5k WN8 and tell em again that these tanks are balanced and all WG needs to do is to fix "core gameplay"...

And as much as it hurts initially to be deprived of these 5 "can do it all" tanks, likely at least one of them is your personal favorite, it will, again, open up the game. No longer will you need to grind games in these in order to feel competitive. No longer are good tanks always slightly tanky meds or meddy heavies and nothing else. In the bright future you can go and play heavies or even TDs and still have the feeling of not only different but also viable gameplay.

I don;t give a crap about those tanks, I've personally said for ages the E5 should get a much weaker LFP and the Russian meds are too good and should be nerfed.

But there  is a difference between good at everything and an all rounder, the Cent AX is an all rounder. It does not excel at anything, it has some armour, it has a decent gun and decent mobility. It takes thought and planning to play well, but it's adaptable.

You can easily fix the power tanks by nefring them, they could have done that years ago, anyone could have told them the IS3 was OP.

But chosing tanks into these restrictive roles is terrible, why I have ground a 113 if it's basically going to be an IS7? Why have I got an E4 and an E5 if they can basically do the same thing and are as crap in other areas.

Where is the fun in being so massively denied choice, variety and the ability to bring my thinking to the game as to how I should play the game and play a tank?

I don't want to be told how I must play, I don't want some stupid tank that is OP in one situation and completely useless in another, that is just a recipe for frustration, roll a dice, oh I've got Malinovka in my support tank great I can do something, roll another dice, Oh I've got himmelsdorf I'll just roll over and get killed by a Maus who is just RRRing at me and my team's heavies are hiding in base. 

Much fun. 

What is 'viable' in these changes, there will be one tank class worth using, armoured heavies or assault tanks.

There is no point choosing something like a Grille 15, you can't pen anything from range, we will still have crappy corridor maps so all engagement ranges are already short, you can;t even have a fun game on Prohk because the Maus can just roll down the 1 line and you penetration at 300m on a tier 10 TD drops to like 180 pen as if your tier 10 TD has just turned into a tier 7 tank all of sudden. 

They have created two new 'roles' that they have basically said they don't want deciding games.

Things like the 50b, 268, Grille 15 and Leopard 1 are supposed to be longer range tanks and they have specifically stated that they do no want games won by long range engagements.

So what is the point of those tanks? You close to 50m, the only distance where you can reliably hit and pen stuff and brawl with heavy tanks in unchanged maps.

Yeh I can see a flood of people picking those tanks. 

People are not that stupid, with these changes, tier 10 will be 90% Maus, E100 or IS4 on each side. 

If that's a game you want to come back to then you have some weird likes, cos that is a game I would leave in instant, it;s boring and dumb, designed for stupid people. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, GehakteMolen said:

*Nonsense*

Learn to play? As in what? The game is somehow too easy for your elite self at the moment? Are you kidding?

As of now, WITH high accuracy guns, WITH high penetration AP / APCR, WITH constant gold spam, WITH highly adaptable tanks, the majority of people at tier 10 fail to even pull their own freaking weight!

You're telling people that making accuracy worse, nerfing penetration across the board, nerfing premium ammo and forcing each and every tank into a preset playstyle mold is somehow going to make things better?

1 hour ago, Jaegaer said:

We can bitch as much as we want but we are only 1% of all the players that play WoT. Ofc, T-62A is balanced for a noob but anyone at least slightly above average will realize fast that this tank is better than most others. For sheer power there are like 5 tanks in the game that you should use, the rest is garbage compared to that.Look to what most SuperUnicums are driving to generate their recent 5k WN8 and tell em again that these tanks are balanced and all WG needs to do is to fix "core gameplay"...

And as much as it hurts initially to be deprived of these 5 "can do it all" tanks, likely at least one of them is your personal favorite, it will, again, open up the game. No longer will you need to grind games in these in order to feel competitive. No longer are good tanks always slightly tanky meds or meddy heavies and nothing else. In the bright future you can go and play heavies or even TDs and still have the feeling of not only different but also viable gameplay.

This is what could make me come back to WoT.

Excuse me, how many people can pull 5k recent exactly? Let's be generous and say it's a whole fucking 1000 people. And let's also assume that they can only do it while padding in their E50 or T62A and such. In which way is it fair to punish the hundreds of thousands, see millions of players who are enjoying those tanks and not pulling 5k recent, just because a small handful of people manage to do it?

As you so well point out, let's call ourselves the "awakened" players, make up only 1% (perhaps a few percents..) of the population of this game. Why, oh why would they, or should they even consider balancing the game around us?

And only 5 viable tanks? What? I'm not that good and I comfortably stomp shit up in at least 15 tanks, and that's just at t10. In fact, every single tank, with a few exceptions, can be used to stomp shit up rather effectively if the player learns to use it properly. Yeah, some are easier than others. So what? Is it mandatory that every tank be an excruciating pain in the ass to learn and adapt to?

... Enough ranting.

 

With what I've been reading about Sandbox so far, I think they are putting way too much effort into fixing something that is NOT broken in the first place.

As it was pointed out by others in this thread and others, if the core gameplay was so damn bad, then please explain the hundred of thousands of players who log on every day. And no, not all of them are mindless addicted zombies, I can tell you that much.

The core of this game is solid.  I have too many games to count and I enjoy a very, very large amount of them, but I keep coming back to WoT. Why? Because despite its flaws, it's fun.

 

Right now, it seems like they're trying to change the entire game in 2 ways:

- Make every single tank as team dependent as possible by assigning it a role. In other words, if you are in a tank and you fulfill your role, but your team does not fulfill theirs, you will have a very hard time affecting the outcome. This is even more cancerous than arty.

- As much as possible, force pubbies into specific tanks with especially easy roles, i.e. highly armored heavies / TDs, with the role of holding a close range front-line. Not only does this promote even more brawly gameplay, but it also promotes stagnant, ineffective brawly gameplay, where mistakes are hardly punished, progress is slow, and smart plays are only rewarded if everyone plays their roles. This is also very cancerous.

 

In the end, no matter what I say, or anyone here says, the odds are it will not affect what WG is doing at all, or at least only very, very little. However, we can be assured that if the changes they implement are an overall decrease in the quality of the core gameplay (which I think is the case), the player base will shrink and so will their revenue. If WG is smart about their business (which they have proven to be), they will do whatever they think is necessary to stop such a thing from happening. In any case, I'm not losing any sleep over it. I'll see this "great rebalance" when it comes and if it's somehow less fun, I guess I'll end up quitting and that will be all.

Until then, I'm still enjoying myself.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, NThirtyTwo said:

As you so well point out, let's call ourselves the "awakened" players, make up only 1% (perhaps a few percents..) of the population of this game. Why, oh why would they, or should they even consider balancing the game around us?

Every good competetive game is balanced around the best players (Dota, Starcraft, CS...), not around bad and average players like WoT is balanced (or going in that direction).

 

That is why WoT will never be even close to an eSport like those above mentioned are, and if all of the above have very successful business model to monetize their game (which they do), makes you see on how many fronts WG actually fails which is sad.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, 3MAJ86 said:

Every good competetive game is balanced around the best players (Dota, Starcraft, CS...), not around bad and average players like WoT is balanced (or going in that direction).

 

That is why WoT will never be even close to an eSport like those above mentioned are, and if all of the above have very successful business model to monetize their game (which they do), makes you see on how many fronts WG actually fails which is sad.

WG is a business. Their goal is not eSport, it is constant or increasing revenue. eSport is just a tool in that sense.

How do you do that?

- You appeal to as many players as possible:

You appeal to casual players by making low tier battles funny, somewhat forgiving and fast paced.

You appeal to "average" players by allowing a wide variety of vehicles, features, maps, game modes, etc. to enjoy and experiment with.

You appeal to "good" players by having complex mechanics that allow for situations where good play will be well rewarded and include a sense of constant progression and improvement.

You appeal to "elite" players by having game modes / events which give an actual reward for good play, i.e. CW / tournament gold, eSport money and prizes, etc.

etc.

- You make people feel like paying x$ for a customization or special item is a good investment: special or unique tanks, cool camo patterns and emblems, etc. I was playing a lot of TF2 back in the day when it was still a 20$ game. When they made the game free to play, and added all these cool customization and special items, their revenue increased tenfold.

 

Point is, yeah, WoT is quite certainly not as good on the eSport and competitive front as other games, and if that's what makes you tick, you may want to look elsewhere.

But as a business, WG is very successful and it only makes sense that they will at least try to keep it that way.

Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, NThirtyTwo said:

You appeal to "good" players by having complex mechanics that allow for situations where good play will be well rewarded and include a sense of constant progression and improvement.

Well this part bothers me, as I am affected by it. The good play is often punished by RNG, and that is the issue, and will continue to be so, according to the ideas coming from sandbox so far.

I am trying not to repeat what the others have already stated.

 

The best players, elite how you call them, are those that will push to the absolute limits all of the game possibilities. In the mid ranges, the players in majority of the case are not able to exploit the balance issues that exist, since they are lacking more basic skills to get there, to gain sense for micro differences.

 

Look closely how Dota is balanced (I'm mentioning it because I played it a lot). Once a year they bring in a major patch just to reshuffle the gameplay, change meta a bit, to avoid the game becoming repetative on pro level. And apart from that every now and then there are subtle changes that majority of the player base doesn't even feel, like 0.5sec change in the duration of one of the abilities.And that 0.5sec is CRITICAL on pro level. Imagine if you lowered the reload time by 0.5sec on a T62 for example. For "elite" players, it would make huge deal, and huge increase in their performance, while more than 90% of the players will feel it as a slight buff, because either way they are not capable of using already high DPM value of that tank, due to their lack of positioning knowledge and what not. They don't keep their gun in the game singing all the time, "elite" players do. I know it's too extreme example, but that is first thing that came to my mind.

 

I see no logical reason to balance the game around average players rather than the best ones. And that is what Sandbox is all about it seems.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, 3MAJ86 said:

*snip

I see no logical reason to balance the game around average players rather than the best ones. And that is what Sandbox is all about it seems.

I may have wrongly expressed my point of view.

I see no logical reason to do this "great rebalance" thing in the first place. As was pointed out above, the game needs tweaking, not complete obliteration and rebuilding from scratch.

Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, 3MAJ86 said:

...I see no logical reason to balance the game around average players rather than the best ones. And that is what Sandbox is all about it seems.

Then let me show you:

What do all games that balance themselves around the Elite have in common? Well - skill based MM as the main game mode in a VERY limited environment (either 1vs1 with a small set of civs or 5vs5 on one map in one gamemode).

They all are much more limited and controlled than WoT is.

Whats next? Well, next is what do you assume does balancing around the best mean?

If you balance around the very best, E100 is a spectacularily great tank because the very best can use it to angle, bait, position and whatnot and even avoid high pen HEAT some times. So, by your definition, E100 is nice and fine. Even though 99% of the average players will not make it work against anyone firing prem ammo...

Would that help WoT? Would that be viable in a situation where players of VERY different skill sets hit each other?

No, of course, it wouldn't.

So, to me, balancing around the best in WoT actually means not a lot and would help noone. The average joe needs to be able to find a tankw here he can do reasonably well in and not die instantly and if that means that unicums will have it harder to kill scrubs in the game then this is exactly what WG wants.

BUT - skill will always pay out. The game will always need some room for improvement or else it will become random and stale. So no use for hyperbole, 3k WN8 will still mean something (maybe even more than before), just not the same as before.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The fact that average player can't use E100's armor effectively is the problem of the player, not the game. The player should (at least try to) learn it, and not to completely change the game mechanics because average and below skilled players can't do something.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, DHP said:

Are you saying that if i want to redline snipe i also want to play full HEAT ? Yes please ! :awyeah: Nice balance.  10/10

Heat is notorious (many people are atleast complaining about it) for not beiing that good at long range, even with 340 penetration, if that gets nerfed to 290, it will be way worse

2 hours ago, NThirtyTwo said:

Learn to play? As in what? The game is somehow too easy for your elite self at the moment? Are you kidding?

As of now, WITH high accuracy guns, WITH high penetration AP / APCR, WITH constant gold spam, WITH highly adaptable tanks, the majority of people at tier 10 fail to even pull their own freaking weight!

You're telling people that making accuracy worse, nerfing penetration across the board, nerfing premium ammo and forcing each and every tank into a preset playstyle mold is somehow going to make things better

YES, if you have trouble killing a maus on Sandbox the problem is not the game, its behind the keyboard!

I have zero problems killing any tank, except an Type 5 and E3, E100 when hull down still has the police bar on top while a Maus has to show its turret face if he wants to shoot. Most mediums get either high penetration or rly good mobility, so its no problem to penetrate the front or simply flank.

All those penetration values and moronic claims like: At 100m IS7 unkillable hurr durr only shows many people seemingly cant play wot without their precious gold ammo.

Same roles are good, not bad, its fucking retarded in the first place that every single tier 10 tank is an excellent sniper, sniper should be a role, a niche for certain tanks (leopard, Amx 30b, Chieftain) not some general role everyone can do. Same every fucking tank having 500m viewrange is retarded, trow in high alpha dmg, autoloaders for everyone and OP as fuck gold ammo, and tier 10 is total trash, and its about time WG cleans this shit.

All people do is whine about the penetration nerf, yet they forget the alpha dmg nerf, rof buff, accuracy nerf, aim time and bloom buffs, mobility nerf (heavys) buff (mediums) hp rebalance (nerf for snipers, buff for brawlers) aswell as much needed tank-rebalances (type 5 and maus are now relevant, E100 is brought in-line, E5 got nerfed, Foch-155 is now sort of playable, Obj 268 has a purpose, Obj 263 can now be played as intended and so on and on and on.

And thats excluding the arty change, people cry and cry like dement ****** about the stun, yet forget that arty has:

  • No AP
  • No gold ammo
  • more as 50% penetration nerf for HE
  • Alpha dmg nerf (like 45% less alpha dmg, so even IF you get penetrated a T92 still only deals 1250 dmg, and not 2200)

If WG fixes 10 problems and creates 3 new, thats still a massive improvement, i rather have 4 tanks unplayable due to this patch if that means 10 others are now finally playable again, same i rather get shafted because my medium cant snipe that well, if that means i wont be yolo-blazed cross map by some turd with gold ammo who saw a quickbaby video about ``preserving hp``

Baddies trying to camp with T62`s will suffer, unless they play tank which fit their playstyle (a heavy or TD with high penetration) while good players can now dominate with mediums again, like when tier 9 mediums where god-mode). These changes are good for average and below players (they can derp around with heavys) and good for unicums, since they will no longer be outcamped by green-blue`s redline camping while ``preserving hp`` 

And YES, anyone stupid enough to fight a maus head should die, if 3 mediums are too coward to rush the maus or to stupid to retreat, they should die, no excuse.

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, GehakteMolen said:

Stuff

Right now:

Maus rrrs in a long corridor. He gets tracked and shit on by high pen ammo and quickly dies. Bad play is punished.

Maus player learns to play the tank and charges the same corridor while doing zigzags (with his hull) and keeping his turret angled properly the whole time. He might get tracked a few times, and even take a couple of shots of damage because RNG, but with some support, he will make it to the next cover and help his team break a strong opposing force. Good play is rewarded.

 

What I gather from Sandbox:

Maus rrrs in a long corridor. Nobody in the enemy team can do much about it since most guns won't penetrate anyway, but he takes some damage regardless thanks to RNG. Maus reaches next cover point somewhat damaged, but alive. Bad play is not punished. One could argue bad play is rewarded.

Maus player learns to play the tank and charges the same corridor while doing zigzags and keeping his turret angled properly the whole time. Maus is God, unbreakable, even if he somehow crashed halfway through with his shit still angled okay, nobody could do shit about it even in their wildest dreams. Good play is hugely rewarded.

 

It really might just be me, but I find the idea retarded.

 

Also, which T10 tanks exactly are we talking about when we say they are unplayable? In my experience, only 3 tanks are "that bad" at the moment: FV4005, Foch 155, Obj. 268, and even then, some very good players might argue that they can make them work.

The sandbox changes as I understand them would make every tank that isn't properly adapted to short range brawly combat at minimum "less relevant", and at worse "unplayable".

 

So really, it's not breaking 4 tanks so that 10 may be fixed.

Rather, it's (maybe) fixing 2 tanks: Foch 155 and Obj 268, and hurting / breaking 15 or so others in the process (just on top of my head): 121,STB-1, AMX 30B, AMX 50B, Bat. Chat. 25t, Centurion AX, FV4005, TVP 50/51, E50M, Leopard 1, Grille 15, M48 Patton, M60, Obj 140, Obj 430, Obj. 907, T-62A

Now I don't want to start an argument on how much those tanks are actually affected by it. Maybe I'm wrong about some of them all together and maybe it's not that bad for others, but it seems pretty clear to me that these tanks will at minimum suffer from those changes. Point is we're pretty darn far from the Fix 10, break 4 figure, which if true, would be a net improvement.

Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, BlackAdder said:

So, guys who play on Sandbox, you'll get a WG survey to fill out. Hopefully, they'll listen.

V8nIqCD.jpg

I think I summed it up pretty nicely. :doge: 

You really think they'll read that? I mean, some intern certainly will and make a note somewhere, which will land in the inbox of some exec that only looks at how he can increase the short-term income of the company, so he can brag about it to his friends while snorting coke of a hookers arse on their table. That came across just way too sarcastic, sorry (seriously fuck that type of exec though). Let me try again.

I'm glad you put in an opinion I can share (except for the remove arty-part). I'm sad however, because for every such voicing of a sensible opinion, 1 GehakteMolen and 15 sub-800 WN8 heavy-only-now-drivers praise the changes.

Fuck me, I'm despressed today :facepalm:

Link to post
Share on other sites

They really need remove arty and let HTs and other slow tanks frontline pushers. Everything else is ok with small on fly tweaks. 

It's sad to say but i like more corridor maps right now than open shit in your face maps. And WG is responsible for that. Being shited all over by some subhuman 50er is retarded.

but WG often listens players. Not.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, NThirtyTwo said:

Right now:

Maus rrrs in a long corridor. He gets tracked and shit on by high pen ammo and quickly dies. Bad play is punished.

Maus player learns to play the tank and charges the same corridor while doing zigzags (with his hull) and keeping his turret angled properly the whole time. He might get tracked a few times, and even take a couple of shots of damage because RNG, but with some support, he will make it to the next cover and help his team break a strong opposing force. Good play is rewarded.

 

That missed the bigger problem though. Right now "good play" for the Maus is planting his ass in some pre-determind corridor and doing everything possible to not leave said corridor. It becomes less of a tank and more of an armored train trapped on a set track.

Now to be clear, I do thing WG is overdoing it with both general pen nerfs for some tanks, premium pen nerfs, and pen dropoff ALL COMBINED, but the purpose of it is reasonably sound.

You CAN'T change the CQC corridor meta to something more open while keeping pen values and mechanics untouched. That will just bring back the retarded TD meta, which was way, WAY worse than the pre-freemium heavy meta ever was.

A heavy that tries to leave the rails and go venturing off somewhere else shouldn't be vaporized by literally everything hiding behind a bush. The only tanks capable of doing that should be tanks specifically balanced around the ability to do that, like the Nashorn or Sturer Emil. Those vehicles will never be good for anything else; so you may as well make them the best at the whole sniping jig. The larger issue is that practically everything can pretend to be a TD when you have credits to burn. This has the dual effect of turning open maps into corridor maps, and massively devalues vehicles which are balanced around their TD-sniping abilities.

Driving out in the open with a superheavy should be punished, but in the current meta too many tanks are capable of inflicting that punishment even when they're clearly not designed for that purpose, and its to the point where its such overkill that superheavies are basically forced to stay on rails.

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, 3MAJ86 said:

The fact that average player can't use E100's armor effectively is the problem of the player, not the game. The player should (at least try to) learn it, and not to completely change the game mechanics because average and below skilled players can't do something.

This speaks to a broader issue about game balance and "why doesn't WG balance around the top 1%".

Balancing around the top 1% would involve balancing every single vehicle, especially ones like the E-100, around near-100% HEAT or premium APCR loadouts. And then they would be specifically balanced around an environment where almost every shot fired is HEAT or premium APCR.

 

Actually doing this would involve tearing down the game meta and rebuilding it like scratch like they are now, and then you'd have the problem where every tank is specifically balanced around a completely different environment from normal pubbie battles. Tanks that end up being "balanced" around the top 1% may then proceed to be monstrously OP or miserably UP in standard battles. That just sucks.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Madner Kami said:

You really think they'll read that? I mean, some intern certainly will and make a note somewhere, which will land in the inbox of some exec that only looks at how he can increase the short-term income of the company, so he can brag about it to his friends while snorting coke of a hookers arse on their table. That came across just way too sarcastic, sorry (seriously fuck that type of exec though). Let me try again.

I'm glad you put in an opinion I can share (except for the remove arty-part). I'm sad however, because for every such voicing of a sensible opinion, 1 GehakteMolen and 15 sub-800 WN8 heavy-only-now-drivers praise the changes.

Fuck me, I'm despressed today :facepalm:

Maybe you should listen GehakteMolen, he is better player than you. This thread has gone outright to official forum level of shit, "world is falling" idiots posting how changes are HORRIBLE and they will STOP PLAYING. Do not thing your opinion is common view on changes.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This thread is getting pretty bad. Have we all forgotten that Sandbox is mostly just WG throwing ideas at the wall and seeing what sticks? Even they arent crazy enough to break a highly successful game for shits and giggles.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Tupinambis said:

Tanks that end up being "balanced" around the top 1% may then proceed to be monstrously OP or miserably UP in standard battles. That just sucks.

I don't think that this would be the outcome, since, apart from those top 1%, the rest of us don't use the tank to it's full potential in order to feel the constraints. At least, not even close to the amount it is present in the top.

 

But ok, it is just opinion, I am far from being the top 1%, so I do accept that I might be terribly wrong. I am drawing parallels to other games that are balanced that way, and are working just fine. Maybe it's just uncomparable.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, karl0ssus1 said:

This thread is getting pretty bad. Have we all forgotten that Sandbox is mostly just WG throwing ideas at the wall and seeing what sticks? Even they arent crazy enough to break a highly successful game for shits and giggles.

That was their official original pretense, but they changed it clearly very soon after by stating that what they are doing over there is going to stick in the broad strokes.

4 hours ago, sahtila said:

Maybe you should listen GehakteMolen, he is better player than you. This thread has gone outright to official forum level of shit, "world is falling" idiots posting how changes are HORRIBLE and they will STOP PLAYING. Do not thing your opinion is common view on changes.

That he is a statistically better player than me, doesn't mean he's automagically right about everything and that his shit golden.

7 hours ago, Tupinambis said:

Now to be clear, I do thing WG is overdoing it with both general pen nerfs for some tanks, premium pen nerfs, and pen dropoff ALL COMBINED, but the purpose of it is reasonably sound.

As far as I can see, everyone is argueing and agreeing that premmo in particular needs a nerf and that artillery is a problem (as well as maps). The criticism isn't in what they want to achieve, but in how they want to do it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Can't quote everyone, but will try to deal with a few points

1. E100s and IS7s driven by bobs do not just fall over die in the current meta.

I played a game yesterday where an AFK IS4, yes that's a not moving IS4, blocked over 2k damage, by literally just being an IS4 sat in the open.

How many times have you seen some tomato idiot in an IS7 literally drive out into the open against basically a whole team and he doesn't die, go stare at the front of an IS7 with like an E50M from 300m, the aiming circle is bigger than the tank, add in penetration RNG even idiotic play like that can often be gotten away with in heavy tanks.

The E100 has 2700 HP, that is like an E5 firing at it non-stop for over a minute penning every shots, which does not happen.

Look at VBaddict, even with the prevalence of premium ammo and 3 arty games on tier 10, giant slow block tanks like the Maus and E100 block around 45-50% of the shots fired at them, they have both have over 40% survival rates as well, despite having fairly poor WRs. 

Heavies are already forgiving, they are already bouncing a lot of shots and they are already very popular (IS7, E5 and E100 are all in the top 5 most played tier 10s), slight changes to artillery and premium ammo massively boosts the competitiveness of those tanks, for all skill ranges. 

 

2. Would love some to explain how a 268 is now viable, when it is currently not viable in the corridor meta we have and it now has less than 200mm penetration at 400m, despite being classed a 'Sniper' by WG, whilst at the same time they literally state they do no want long range fire to win games.

So how on earth is a 'sniper' a viable choice when WG are creating an environment where snipers should not play a role in the outcome of the game.

Explain that please.

 

3. Sandbox is not throwing ideas around, look at their mission statements, look not at exactly what they are doing but the reasons they say they are doing it. 

Those include saying things like 

Quote
  • Reducing combat distance so long-range clashes aren't the ultimate way to win battles

and

Quote
  • Increasing gameplay variety by distinguishing the roles for different types of vehicles

and

Quote

Right now, players might use similar tactics when driving vehicles that aren't too different from one another, which can make for monotonous gameplay

These are not changes, this is their mission statement, this is what they want the game to be even though it is out of touch with reality and even contradicts itself because they say multiple times they don't want long range fire to be effective and then all of a sudden they create new class of vehicle 

Quote

highly effective at long range fire. 

Except it isn't because you've nerfed accuracy, penetration and penetration over distance.

 

4. 4 tanks will not become unplayable, 60% of tanks will basically be pointless.  End of the day fighting stuff at like over 250m is what a huge swathe of tanks are for, they are support tanks, they are soft, they are not supposed to be brawling and they are already suffering in the corridor meta and WG wants to make that suffering complete.

As I said players are not stupid, the majority of players are not good enough to correctly use mediums in close quarters fighting, so that is the new Russian meds out, people will find them too hard.

The TDs will be useless because of the pen nerfs over distance and they are useless at close range, so that's those tanks out.

The support mediums will struggle at range because of the pen nerfs unless they are used close enough, which again most players are not good enough to do, so that's those out for most players.

People will not use the lights because they cannot pen stuff and the stuff they spot will be heavies and assaults that no one can reliably pen from range. 

People will play games and get fed up that they have to work so hard to defeat a Maus or IS4, whilst the IS4 or Maus driver barely has to do much but roll forward, so they'll say fuck it I'll play a Maus.

So more people play a Maus and more people get pissed of with their useless sniper tanks and support mediums that can;t pen the Maus at range and they can't brawl it at close range. 

Then before you know it, those tanks will be 90% of tanks in game, because it will snowball, so have fun using your 50b or Patton against 12 enemy Maus just slowing rolling towards you. 

If you make something so obviously better and easier to play, then that is what pretty much everyone will play. Like arty got to at times in pre-8.6 where you had games of like 12 arty a side because it was the easy mode thing to play and because it was no fun to play against. 

it's the can't beat them join them principle. Make heavies this idiot proof, then why bother playing anything else, why work your arse off and play skillfully and intelligently when you can just RRR and win the game in a Maus. 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...