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On 7/22/2016 at 1:52 PM, GehakteMolen said:

And thats ignoring the main point all you heavy-haters seem to forget AND WHICH I SAID THREE TIMES BEFORE, YOU CAN ONLY CHOOSE OPTION 1, 2 or 3!!

1: all idiots play arty

2: all idiots play TDs

3: all idiots play heavys

So please pick 1, which tank class would be the best class for joe average?? and mediums can be chosen for 2 reasons:

1: they are too hard, which means you need to buff them

2: mediums have a high skill ceiling, buffing them so a 47% yolo player can perform decent in them will make then brutal OP for unicums

Thats it

Thats why heavy-meta = best meta, and why heavys should be ``the best``, people will never play mediums, so its arty, tds and heavys!!

/rant

2: so you still think WG can balance the game proper if they continu on the same path? after the last 4 years where they added wonder machines like Type 5, TVP, O-I Exp Fv 4005 and countless of other brainfarts? WG has ofc a trackrecord of adding brutal OP or worthless tanks, in a random order, but the same department that adds WTF-E100 and wont replace it for 2 years wont be able to proper balance the game (hence the rework, which i am 100% certain done by other people)

-snip-

Imo sandbox wont ``dumb down the game`` it makes it different, and shifts skill from ``preserving hp and shooting from a distance`` to ``charge the enemy and fuck them up``

100% this, no heavy buff = no open maps

If you want open maps, you better pm WG that sandbox is the best thing since sliced bread...

I'm an idiot and I don't play any of those tanks.  I mostly play meds because I hate playing slow ponderous tanks and I like turrets.  I think you are underestimating just how many of us idiots like going zoom-zoom, pew-pew.  I have 4 tier Xs, the two RU-meds, the E5, and an M60 - I'm bad in all of them, but they are what I chose to grind out.  I like mobility, I like accurate guns, I don't like brawling.  I hate having to tank corners - I suck at it.  I do play heavies, and I like them, but I tend to play them with meds and keep the tracks moving.

I played about 125 games on the SB, mostly in M48, E100, E50, E5, Ob261.  What I noticed and did not care for was that when I won the high ground flank that WG tells us we should win (hill on Prok, Lighthouse on mines, balcony on Seigfried etc.) in my M48, I was ineffective trying to take advantage of it shooting at sides of enemy tanks.  Now, If I cannot effectively hurt the side of a heavy (breakthrough or assault) by shooting them at 300+m in the side, what is the point of capturing high ground?

If its this bad in the M48, which I think has highest pen of any med, what will I do to be useful in a pershing or T-20?  I may be a shitter, but I'm not going to crawl along in a maus just because its easy-mode for reds.  The part everybody is missing here is that we already bought our tanks based on a play style that we each as individuals enjoy.  Just because WG decides to reallocate winners and losers is not going to suddenly make an E4 materialize in my garage.

Another interesting effect is that the pen drop has effectively nerfed the view-range buff LTs received.  Sure RU, you can out spot all of the tier Xs, but that does not mean anybody can pen what you are spotting anymore.

---

On a seperate note, I have come to the conclusion that there is little if any connection between the side of WG that builds maps and the side of Wg that builds tanks.  I think the maps are either probably farmed out or done by a completely separate group.  Trying to talk to the SB devs it was obvious to me that the maps were a complete mystery to them.

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so apparently i saw this gem on the RU side of the SB forums (and yes i use google translate):

Hi,
 
As you probably noticed in our forum is now disabled the ability to create threads , it is a temporary measure . We are interested to know what kind of open discussion, you would like to see during the pause . Share your opinion in the discussion . Thank you!

 

original link: http://forum-sandbox.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/3717-невозможно-создать-обсуждение/

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On 7/22/2016 at 7:52 PM, GehakteMolen said:

 

3: all idiots play heavys

 

All idiots already play heavies and do fine.

Which makes a nonsense of trying to make those heavies even better and your whole point.

Bored of repeating it but in the current 3 arty in every other game and mass use of premium ammo meta, the Maus already bounces over 50% of the shots fired at it and has over a 41% survival rate according to VB. 

It's essentially a 6000 HP tank. 

The most popular tier 10 tanks are E5, Grille, Bat Chat, IS7 & E100

There is zero justification to make heavies more forgiving. 

Because it already exists. 

There is zero justification to make specific buffs to armour. 

You change artillery away from being a primarily damage dealer and you nerf tier 10 premium ammo, instantly you make heavies better.

No need to do anything else, no need at all. 

Heavies are already popular.

Heavies are already very forgiving. 

Heavies already boost shitters.

Heavies are already recommended tanks for begginers.

Every heavy in the game that has gone into HD has been buffed.

70-80% of the maps in the game favour heavy tanks and brawling. 

 

Why in actual fuck would heavies need any more specific buffs to boost them?

 

They don't, which is why the sandbox direction is stupidity at it's finest and great example of how stupid WG logic is. 

 

 

 

 

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20 hours ago, Archaic_One said:

I'm an idiot and I don't play any of those tanks.  I mostly play meds because I hate playing slow ponderous tanks and I like turrets.  I think you are underestimating just how many of us idiots like going zoom-zoom, pew-pew.  I have 4 tier Xs, the two RU-meds, the E5, and an M60 - I'm bad in all of them, but they are what I chose to grind out.  I like mobility, I like accurate guns, I don't like brawling.  I hate having to tank corners - I suck at it.  I do play heavies, and I like them, but I tend to play them with meds and keep the tracks moving.

I played about 125 games on the SB, mostly in M48, E100, E50, E5, Ob261.  What I noticed and did not care for was that when I won the high ground flank that WG tells us we should win (hill on Prok, Lighthouse on mines, balcony on Seigfried etc.) in my M48, I was ineffective trying to take advantage of it shooting at sides of enemy tanks.  Now, If I cannot effectively hurt the side of a heavy (breakthrough or assault) by shooting them at 300+m in the side, what is the point of capturing high ground?

If its this bad in the M48, which I think has highest pen of any med, what will I do to be useful in a pershing or T-20?  I may be a shitter, but I'm not going to crawl along in a maus just because its easy-mode for reds.  The part everybody is missing here is that we already bought our tanks based on a play style that we each as individuals enjoy.  Just because WG decides to reallocate winners and losers is not going to suddenly make an E4 materialize in my garage.

Another interesting effect is that the pen drop has effectively nerfed the view-range buff LTs received.  Sure RU, you can out spot all of the tier Xs, but that does not mean anybody can pen what you are spotting anymore.

---

On a seperate note, I have come to the conclusion that there is little if any connection between the side of WG that builds maps and the side of Wg that builds tanks.  I think the maps are either probably farmed out or done by a completely separate group.  Trying to talk to the SB devs it was obvious to me that the maps were a complete mystery to them.

Your green, and thus already better as 60-70% of the playerbase ^^ 

6 hours ago, tajj7 said:

All idiots already play heavies and do fine.

They dont, since games with mulitple tier 10 heavys are very rare, only the E5 is a common tier 10 heavy (i have multiple missions where i need to kill heavys, and unless MM is rigged, i dont get them, neither in my team or in the other team, plenty of mediums and TDs though...

And you again point at E5, and again, the E5 is not a good balanced heavy, its too strong, same IS3 is popular with idiots, because its OP, that has nothing to do with heavys, and you are gith with all your point, yet the only applies to tier 5-9 not to tier 10

On tier 10 heavys only ``work`` if you camp / play carefull / use others as scouts. on tier 6 i can charge forward with my heavy, i create an opening my team can use, and thats not unicum play, because most heavy players do that, they herp derp forward and the game starts ``going``

6 hours ago, tajj7 said:

Every heavy in the game that has gone into HD has been buffed.

70-80% of the maps in the game favour heavy tanks and brawling. 

Why in actual fuck would heavies need any more specific buffs to boost them?

And all of those buffs where stupid

  • The HD models only made them storng vs low tiers and AP, they didnt fix anything vs high penetration shells an E100 with HEAT still yolo-blazes holes in anything
  • All those brawling maps dont seem to be very popular (or do you think all these brawling maps are fine?)
  • tier 10 TDs are all without exception still ridiculous badly balanced tanks

Fv4005:

  • Huge
  • No camo
  • No armor
  • Not fast
  • Bad gun handling, accuracy, aim time and gun depression
  • A gun which can deal 500-2000 damage, depending on RNG

Foch-155:

  • strong, but not strong enough front armor
  • no side or rear armor
  • not really fast
  • awefull gun handling and aim time, with terrible reload speed and poor accuracy
  • 3x750 damage meaning it can fuck almost any tank in ~10 seconds, depending on RNG

Etc etc etc

If you want to fix tier 10 heavys and add a few open maps, you need to:

  • Nerf arty (so people wont all start playing arty again)
  • Nerf gold ammo (so heavys wont get camo sniped cross map by gold spammers)
  • Rebalance all tier 10 TDs (so people wont all go play big TDs again)
  • Buff and nerf many heavys, since E5 vs 113 is retarded same Maus vs Type 5 vs E100 is perfectic

If you give tog-II 100.000 hitpoints, im sure it will manage 47-49 or so global winrate, but its still an awefull balanced tank, the same applies to the maus, all the city maps limit the times it will get fucked by arty and relative limited numbers of big TDs + the sheer hitpoints give the maus relative decent stats, also because its mostly limited to beiing a bunker / pillbox, its however still a ghetto tank.

The maus should be used to drive forward and break a stalement, not as sidescraping road-block...

ps: if i would be in charge of this balance stuff, i would go much further:

  • Remove tier 10 TDs, some can be made tier 9, others heavys (E4) or removed
  • Remove some tier 8-9-10 arty and make tier 8 arty top tier again
  • Give scouts and arty +1/+2mm, so a tier 7 scout or arty sees tier 6-9 tanks, no tier 5 (like arty now sees) and no tier 10 (like scouts now see)
  • Remove AP and gold ammo from rty
  • Remove HE penetration and rework HE mechanics (greatly increase HE damage from non-penetrating hits, so low caliber HE is usefull)
  • Reduce damage of gold ammo with 20-30%, butcher penetration and greatly reduce the cost, make them like normal ammo
  • Increase the running cost of tier 10 tanks a lot, so people who are too bad wont play it much
  • Reduce effect of module damage from 50% to 25%, and greatly limit module damage from arty / he (i think Wg did this on sandbox server)
  • Give 0 exp and credits for people who deal 0 dmg, except for scouts (they get 0 exp / credits if they have no spot dmg or damage)

And add maps pools, current maps are good for tier 6-8, not so much for tier 9-10 only fights, the viewrange is too high, the camo too low and the accuracy to good (this is also why WG nerfs viewrange and accuracy, to make maps relative bigger)

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@GehakteMolen you do realize that maus is outdated compared to nato meds? 

It's hard to balance pile of imaginary crap against modern tanks with high pen guns. Same goes for Type5, E100. 

Also reducing TDs already limited ability is also wrong, they are crippled already without good mobility and lack of turret. Again it's not like 183 can yolo vs 15, or jaggeru. They often get 1-2 shot and die, unlike meds or HTs.

I think whole gold rounds thing is overblown, and for me they need buff ordinary ammo. I posted in on thread, if they buff AP speed near APCR speed I would use so much faster rounds. That's why i often fail to pen fat HTs, just because excessive using APCR instead of HEAT. 

Still when you face head on Maus, IS7 or E100 they are not easy to kill or pen. Especially when hulldown or sidescrape, even with 330 blaze it heat.

On the other hand you can easily get fucked by CGC splash, killing few members and modules. And that's is biggest threat for me as HT driver.

I'm currently grinding E5 and i hate open maps with any HT. And this is not because of ru meds or big ass TDs. 

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3 minutes ago, BlackAdder said:

I'm currently grinding E5 and i hate open maps with any HT. And this is not because of ru meds or big ass TDs. 

Westfield in a heavy with 3 arty, GG

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Why would you increase the cost of running tier 10s?

Everyone who doesn't have a clan that runs stronks with credit boosters regularly is screwed, and if these people use a tiny amount of premium ammo they're screwed even more!

I don't give a shit about Joe average being a shitter in his HT, even if you nerf everything but HTs to the ground, Joe average will still be a shitter in his HT , the problem is the player base, not the tanks!

Joe average will never learn how to angle/sidescrape/hulldown effectively, he will always RR yolo malinovka field or sit in A0 on prok..

I give a shit about one of my favourite games getting shrekt because Joe average needs to get away while making mistakes and not paying for them!

I'm no unicum, my stats are bad for 16k games, but damn, I learned the basic mechanics of this game, and the motherfucking Joe average can learn them as well!

Joe average should learn that crossing an open field against a RU medium is a fucking bad idea and he should find another way.. Joe average should learn that his E100 has a flat turret and that he needs to angle it to bounce shells, but no, it takes too much brain to do that, let's just give him a chance to make a shit ton of mistakes and not pay for it, because poor Joe average, he's not X3N4 or decha, he's a regular person with a working but lazy as fuck brain that can't be bothered learning 3 fucking mechanics that even a little kid can learn..

Also, bring back tank companies or introduce 7/68 so I don't have to play tier 10s with 14 shitlords in my team..

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8 minutes ago, Archaic_One said:

Westfield in a heavy with 3 arty, GG

Westfield, Prolhorovka, Malinovka, Stepps, El Haluf... List goes on and one. And what is more tragic 10 of 15 retards camp bush in corner and you try something and get rekt. And you need support from meds/lts for swift reaction and execution, but no they sit like rock.

to angle/sidescrape/hulldown effectively, he will always RR yolo malinovka field or sit in A0 on prok..

Problem is joe the average thinks this is like cod or any shoter, grt good reaction and you are good to go. I know because i hear every day complain about game and mehanic. To be honest until 5k games i was potato too, but i learned thing or two and still learning. But many players dont wanna learn (hard way) and they just yolo. And this isn't cod when you snipe few seals like you. Sine this is team game, and rare games are solo carry, even for super unicums, this can be frustrating. 

 

Part of problem is WG with stupid one minute guide.

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The thing is, WG is trying to pull a genie out of a bottle that just does not exist.  Its a mature established game in a very crowded field full of mature established games.  Its different, it has a niche and it killed off the competition, but its 6 years old.  Its a good game, but its no Skyrim.  Games don't just suddenly tweak a few mechanics, and suddenly re-image themselves into a user spike.  Thats not how it works.  In the amount of time it will take WG to get through the SB, they could incrementally make these changes to the player base in the form of 5-6 patches and get actual feedback from actual tomatoes spending actual money.  Alas, no - instead they are going to ram it through and dump it in peoples laps and the NA server will perish shortly thereafter.

WG needs to decide if they are going to try to appeal to their current user base and dig in their heels on their niche game for a few more years at a pretty low cost - or - if they are going to start over with WoT 2.0 at a very high costs.  That does not mean a tweak, that means a better engine, improved graphics, a whole new user experience.  In typical WG fashion, the SB rebalance is an attempt to split the difference.  It will not cause an influx of new players and it will not increase retention of old players.  All it will do is alienate WG players and serve as yet another cautionary tale of a gaming company that did not understand its player base.

do-or-do-not-there-is-no-try_o_2626061.j 

 

<- I just realized how much grinding the 25/2 and stock gun on E75 rekt my recent WR - FFS

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GehakteMolen, I will do it on your own risk, If we "want open maps we should encourage the SB development" I want to kemp bosh like a tomato so hard again :kwim:

Also what do u think about the supertest maps? Ik they are pretty naked atm but i think they look pretty open and depend to some extent on vision control and abusing camo, Like that map slope it have a magic forest able to cross fire all over the map, And WG srsly have a crash on castles, Ships stuck in the ice and Winter theme maps..

https://thearmoredpatrol.com/2016/07/16/updated-supertest-maps-iceship-naglfar-and-slope/

And so far ppl will still heat chai snipe if they kept it the only ammo that don't lose pen over distance, That also leads to even more heat spamming meta...it doesn't matter if they nerfed heat pen that much but if you have AP and APCR which loses 30%,40% at 500 meters or HEAT which doesn't lose pen over distance, Peeps will still shoot it even if they are shooting at Spaced Armor or tracks cuz its the best option they have at Long Range..

Gehak, Are the sandbox goals final? Or they are subject to change too?

Also i noticed you are the only one excited for SB :minglee:

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22 minutes ago, amun said:

 

Also i noticed you are the only one excited for SB :minglee:

Not true, we are all excited about the idea of the SB, but Gek is more optimistic about the direction WG is leaning.  There is good stuff in there but there are also some glaring holes (maps) that could make or break the redo.  I don't like the changes based on my comfort zone, but a lot of people do

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I noticed alot of whine on the russian forums about sandbox like NA and EU or maybe even more...And even more whine they don't listen to the russian player base, I wonder to who does WG listen? o.O

http://forum.worldoftanks.ru/index.php?/topic/1785100-первые-отзывы-из-«песочницы»/page__st__400#topmost

#Google translate at its best

They even support the idea of removing Gold for credits, WG probably listens to them since its their biggest market.

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@Archaic_One Your perspective regarding to gaming mechanics is magical; seriously all your thoughts are in their places, I can relate to all of them. It's very nice to see someone can really understand this game and how should it been improved. Unfortunately personally I think that WG will fuck up the sandbox in a way that one side of the playerbase will be in an uproar, but they can't reverse it for what it's been before and everyone will start to think about the time they lost while they played this shitty game.

On a side note, the moment I'll get my new pc I will go back to 'normal' games such as the upcoming warhammer: dawn of war 3, rise of the tomb raider, cossacks 3 (!) etc. and finally will have some peace :^)

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16 hours ago, GehakteMolen said:

Your green, and thus already better as 60-70% of the playerbase ^^ 

 

 

Quote

They dont, since games with mulitple tier 10 heavys are very rare, only the E5 is a common tier 10 heavy (i have multiple missions where i need to kill heavys, and unless MM is rigged, i dont get them, neither in my team or in the other team, plenty of mediums and TDs though...

Then why are the E100 and IS7 4th and 5th most popular tier 10s? according to VB E5 is actually only above them because of TOTT.  T57 is 11th. 50b is 16th and IS4 is 20th. 

That only really leaves the Maus, 113 and 215b as being 'unpopular' tier 10 heavies and that is mainly because their lines are niche, Maus does not have the Tiger on it or the Tiger 2 so suffers. British line is crap and the 215b is awkward for most players and the 113 line is just a copy paste but worst Soviet line.

E100 and IS7 fill games though and are massively played. 

Across all tiers heavies are quite obviously the most played class. 

 

Quote

And you again point at E5, and again, the E5 is not a good balanced heavy, its too strong, same IS3 is popular with idiots, because its OP, that has nothing to do with heavys, and you are gith with all your point, yet the only applies to tier 5-9 not to tier 10

It's only too strong because they buffed the LFP, it was slightly underpowered before the HD change because the cupola that you couldn't hide was to easy to pen and hit for almost all tanks it fought so it couldn't fight as a heavy very well and you could get more mobile, higher DPM and better guns on the Russian meds and E50M that had enough armour. 

Give the E5 a LFP of the E4 and it's pretty well balanced, you have a strong hull down heavy with weak sides and a weak LFP. 

Quote

On tier 10 heavys only ``work`` if you camp / play carefull / use others as scouts. on tier 6 i can charge forward with my heavy, i create an opening my team can use, and thats not unicum play, because most heavy players do that, they herp derp forward and the game starts ``going``

Rubbish. 

I do that all the time with my IS7 and E100, I push flanks, you just can't yolo RRR like the sandbox is doing, big difference, but that is how it is supposed to be. 

I play my IS7 super aggressively and most of the time it works, sometimes I fck up and get too far from support, but most of the time my aggressive pushes are ended because arty shits on me. 

I have scout/patrol duty medals in my E5 and IS7, I run optics on both with view range skills so have 470 odd view range, go front line take hits and create openings for my team. 

tier 10 heavies can easily be played aggressively, but should still require some thinking and awareness. 

Just yoloing forward and getting awau with it is just not desirable gameplay. 

 

Quote

And all of those buffs where stupid

  • The HD models only made them storng vs low tiers and AP, they didnt fix anything vs high penetration shells an E100 with HEAT still yolo-blazes holes in anything
  • All those brawling maps dont seem to be very popular (or do you think all these brawling maps are fine?)
  • tier 10 TDs are all without exception still ridiculous badly balanced tanks

Again that is not true.

IS7, E5, IS4, E100 and the Maus are all capable of bouncing a fair whack of premium ammo. 

Better balance that premium ammo and you increase those changes, if most HEAT was around 300 penetration, not 330-340 then the bounces for those tanks would jump by 10-15%.

That is enough, no more is needed.

Add in arty changes and your heavies are probably going to be borderline OP with just those TWO changes.

Those brawling maps are there and not going anywhere, personally whilst I don't think its desirable I think the brawling meta is better than the camp in a bush vision meta but in reality we need a good balance.

But those maps will still be there so that needs to be taken into account, if maps already favour heavies, then buffing heavies is silly.

No not all tier 10 TDs are badly balanced, Grille is decent, E3 is decently balanced, 263 is fine. Even Jageroo is not that bad.

But I also don't see the relevance of TDs to buffing heavies.

If you are reducing alpha from TDs, then that is an indirect buff to heavies, so again the other buffs are not needed. 

Quote

If you want to fix tier 10 heavys

They don't need fixing. 

They are popular, strong, bounce lots of shots and are easy to play, in a meta that massively favours them.

Quote
  • Nerf arty (so people wont all start playing arty again)
  • Nerf gold ammo (so heavys wont get camo sniped cross map by gold spammers)
  • Rebalance all tier 10 TDs (so people wont all go play big TDs again)
  • Buff and nerf many heavys, since E5 vs 113 is retarded same Maus vs Type 5 vs E100 is perfectic

No that's it, the first two.

And those are global changes that are not specific to heavy tanks. You fix arty and premium ammo done.

As I said those two changes alone could make heavies borderline OP anyway. 

Quote

The maus should be used to drive forward and break a stalement, not as sidescraping road-block...

1. It can and I've seen it done multiple times.

2. Why shouldn't it be a roadblock, tanks have different strengths and weaknesses, they have different flavours, they shouldn't all do the same thing.

3. Whatever role it favours it should require skill to get the best out of it and bad mistakes should still be punished harshly.

Not this RRR bollocks with tanks bouncing of it's side because they haven't closed to point blank range to circle it. If you drive out into the open and there are tanks 300m away from that have easy side shots YOU DIE, because you DESERVE to. 

 

Quote

And add maps pools, current maps are good for tier 6-8, not so much for tier 9-10 only fights, the viewrange is too high, the camo too low and the accuracy to good (this is also why WG nerfs viewrange and accuracy, to make maps relative bigger)

That is typical WG logic.  The problem is the maps are too small, so instead of fixing the maps, nerf the view ranges and accuracy.

Stupidity. 

The sand box changes basically represent around 6 or 7 direct or indirect buffs to a class that on live really needs no buffing at all because the whole game is already geared towards them.

Arty and premium ammo changes are all that heavies need, even with new maps that might be open, that is all they need.

Not like half a dozen repeated buffs that will make most support classes obsolete. 

Heavies in game currently have - 

- A map pool that massively favours them.

- Countless armour buffs in HD

- Easy to play and forgiving nature

- They benefit the most from RNG 

- They are very popular and decently competitive across all tiers. 

All you have to do is look at global changes to arty and premium ammo that make the game better balanced across all classes and indirectly the heavies will get buffed more than they need to.

There are some sensible changes on sandbox, arty changes, premium ammo changes, reduction of alpha.

But destroying long range fire, destroying penetration, pigeon holing tanks in specific roles, over the top view range changes are a bad direction.

And an obvious outcome of that direction, when you make 6 or 7 buffs to one class is that you make the game into one class.

Direction of the game is world of idiots in heavy tanks. 

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10 hours ago, amun said:

Also what do u think about the supertest maps? Ik they are pretty naked atm but i think they look pretty open and depend to some extent on vision control and abusing camo, Like that map slope it have a magic forest able to cross fire all over the map, And WG srsly have a crash on castles, Ships stuck in the ice and Winter theme maps..

Supertest maps effectively don't exist until they actually put them onto public test servers. How many tons of flashy supertest maps has WG leaked in the past 3-4 years that never saw the light of day? What happened to that giant ~1100x1100m green city map with a big hill in the northwest that they were promoting ~2 years ago? They're only leaking so many of them to give the players the illusion that they're making some sort of progress and surely the next year is worth continuing to play the game for, while in reality they're nipping the great majority of these maps in the bud.

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4 minutes ago, Trumpetah said:

Supertest maps effectively don't exist until they actually put them onto public test servers. How many tons of flashy supertest maps has WG leaked in the past 3-4 years that never saw the light of day? What happened to that giant ~1100x1100m green city map with a big hill in the northwest that they were promoting ~2 years ago? They're only leaking so many of them to give the players the illusion that they're making some sort of progress and surely the next year is worth continuing to play the game for, while in reality they're nipping the great majority of these maps in the bud.

Pls don't make me kri :poi:

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3 hours ago, tajj7 said:

The sand box changes basically represent around 6 or 7 direct or indirect buffs to a class that on live really needs no buffing at all because the whole game is already geared towards them.

This is WG ways of balancing, We are just going into every class life time, Arty>TDs>Mediums and now heavies, they do excessive nerfs/buffs when they want to balance things..Like how they balanced light armored TDs by nerfing thier VR then accuracy And then the trash maps we have now..And LTs got destroyed in the process sadly..

What i think should have happened without changing the maps is to cap tier 10 TDs damage to something like 550-600 and cap TDs in battles ike maybe 2 TDs on each team, And cuz fuq arty only 1 on each team, Then i would say the main reason of TDs after that would be punishing mistakes, And ofc nerf prem ammo..and buff tanks which have horribad pen.

What i see in replays b4 the tier 10 TDs and mediums got introduced  during the +/-3mm is that every tank could actually do something and no tank was useless.

TDs was always powerful but they weren't that much around, Until the arty nerf mid 2013 in 8.6 i think, Then arty players turned into playing TDs, Which did lead to now.

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2 years ago, seeing the first changes, I said that WG intends this game to simply be World of Heavy Tanks, because that's what works best for their business model.

People said that I'm overreacting, that I'm a HT hater, etc.

 

And here we are, seing the server that ultimately turns this game into World of Heavy Tanks. I wonder what those people think now? :)

 

I simply $ my acc on the very sight of this nonsense because I already was frustrated enough with the never-ending catering towards HTs. And it's not that HT meta is bad, but butchering EVERYTHING that doesn't lead to 50m brawls is fucking terrible for the health of this game.

Half of the maps in this game simply fuck you up instantly if you're not in a heavy. Scratching my head, thinking "ok, where the fuck do I go on this map" <-- me in glass TDs or support MTs in my last months of WoT career. Quitting after several games of struggling to even carry my weight on shit maps like Stalingrad, Abbey or Windstorm, where I'm basically presented with three corridors and asked to pick one, inevitably forced into fighting frontally with HTs, because all non-dead zone paths on the map end with a HT fighting zone.

 

Was it enjoyable? fuck no. I just quit. Couldn't stand it any longer.

 

I enjoyed flanking the most, but I couldn't do it. Everywhere I went, I was forced to fight HTs frontally. Every other place, I'd be blown to pieces by TDs that were simply out of place on those maps, useless, bound to guard whatever little open space that was left, making flanking a dead tactic.

I couldn't snipe, I couldn't flank, and playing meds was simply going to the same brawling zone as HTs and trying to outplay them based on the fact that my shots aim a bit faster and are a bit more accurate in a MT. Basically doing the same fucking shit every game. BRAWLING.

 

TL;DR - WG ruined it for me. If you dislike brawling, you have nothing to do in this game. It's all about 50m pekaboo and will forever be about 50m pekaboo, because that's what the dev team considers proper for their business model.

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5 hours ago, tajj7 said:

[snip]

VB addict is biased sample size, Wot-news is better, and that gives for the last 2 weeks:

  • Heavy:    2.544.546 
  • TD:         1.705.476
  • Medium: 2.040.501
  • SPG:         920.433

Its however biased for T110E5, due to tank of the month (39% of all games played in heavys tanks is with E5)

Most popular tanks beiing:

T110E5		10	Heavy Tanks	Usa	987237
Grille 15/L63	10	TD		Germany	787130
IS-7		10	Heavy Tanks	Ussr	460987
Bat.-Chât 25 t	10	Medium Tanks	France	448422
E 100		10	Heavy Tanks	Germany	362822
Object 140	10	Medium Tanks	Ussr	361061
Jp-E 100	10	TD		Germany	317262
T92		10	SPG		Usa	283218
T50 51		10	Medium Tanks	Czech	267578
Bat.-Chât ardy	10	SPG		France	254007
T110E4		10	TD		Usa	195635
T-62A		10	Medium Tanks	Ussr	195272
T57 Heavy Tank	10	Heavy Tanks	Usa	189162
E 50 Ausf. M	10	Medium Tanks	Germany	169872

E5 is poluting data so much that proper conclusions cant be drawn (if you exclude E5, heavys are even less popular as TDs, thats also wrong)

And your also wrong when you say: ``Tier 10 is fine`` and for 2 reasons:

  • Player count dropped a lot, both on EU and RU (Wg doesnt give a shit for NA)
  • Massive rebalance cost a lto of money / effort and causes rage, so there has to be a reason:
    • Numbers show tier 10 is very impopular and tier 10 is the outlier tier

I myself sold most tier 10 TDs and wont buy any tier 10 tank in the foreseeable future, and i bet many more players are doing the exact same, same my ``interest`` in wot is fading, not because im bored of the game, but im bored of the way its played, especially high tier, i myself know many people who dont like tier 10 much, imo tier 10 is awefull / torture, unless your in a platoon, yet sandbox is perfect fine for solo (i have more respect for X3N4 that he can play so long tier 10 solo as hes stats, hes stats are imo easier to get as hies patience to play so much tier 10, 3 games solo tier 10 and im already really. fucking. mad.

Tier 10 = shit, all the people here on wotlabs who complain about wot almost all play nothing but tier 10, same most people who quit wot ( good players) are the players who played tons of tier 10, those who play all tiers keep playing, coincidence? i dont think so....

(and even if all the above is nonsense, its a fact player count is dropping, so something has to chance drastically anyway, some small gold ammo nerf and arty rework is already ``too little too late``, that might have been fine a year ago, but not now, and the longer WG waits the bigger the change has to be, and so far, i am mostly right with my general guestimations, so i bet im not that far off....)

ps: almost all the relevant WG devs are not your typical idiotic game developer, but just smart people who randomly stumbled in WG, Serb who made the game what it was, was a nuclear physics, WG devs are not the kind of shitty dev who ignore data, infact WG balances to much on data (and tooooo sloooooow) i bet data shows tier 10 are still not performing as middle tiers, that tier 10 is the tier many people dont play much / well and that tier 10

And sandbox is what WG should have done in the first place:

http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/128099-t-62a/page__st__160__pid__2339433#entry2339433

Quote

T54 is a close range brawler, (same as T44) and we now get some worthless, US/USSR clone, which cant brawl (like T54) nor give support (like M46)

it (=T62a) might be a good tank, but it fits no role, its thus not worth buying, nerf its gun, give it GOOD armor (which works the same as T54) and bigger engine, so its just a bigger, better, T54, an im fine with it (and most other ppl 2)

i didnt ask for a better gun, at the trade of armor AND speed/agility, T54 was alrdy rather poor mobility wise, if there was 1 thing that needed soem improvements it was its agility and speed, and guess what, they nerfed/reduced it....

Thats 2012, in 2012 i complained tier 10 mediums where boring and dull upgrades, without ``role`` or ``purpose``

Same i said the following (in 2013!) in soem arty whine topic (i like beiing proven right)

Quote

but i can always try:
1: arty protomes camping, thats a fact and is known for ages, if u can choose between getting nuked for 5x 1k dmg, or hide behind a rock, u hide behind a rock
2: there is no place in wot for tier 10 tds and there never was... when tier 10 got announced any non-stupid player KNEW that this was a BAD and STUPID move of WG
3: medium tanks NEED low penetration, this forces them to flank, also low penetration means they need to excel in other areas, like armor (T54), gun depression/dpm (M46), mobility (T44), flexibilty (E50)
4: high tier heavys ONLY can do there job IF there armor works, and they can move around ``safely``

5: in conclusion, high tier tds are OP -> causes camping, this was masked by even more OP SPG`s,
6: mediums with awefull balanced stats (all t10 meds are rather slow, and have crappy armor, yet OP high penetration guns,  -> causes camping (t10 meds can snipe rly well, and suck for the rest)
7: heavys are powerfull on all tiers, except tier 10, they can no longer ``push`` or ``lead the attack``, -> nobody goes in front -> camping

what WG should have done, is NOT introduced t10 tds OR make them MUCH weaker as they are atm (t9 tds with either more hp/rof (704 and foch) armor (JT) or speed (T95) would have been good enough there was NO REASON AT ALL, to give them MUCH better guns, MUCH better armor and MUCH better mobility as there predecessors....

also med should have gotten WAY worse guns, 235-250 pen, except perhaps some specialist (1, not all) with high penetration, and instead much better armor and mobility....

with 2 (3) tanks classes bound to camp (med and td (and spg))) and 1 class to weak too attack (heavys) it simply ends in camping, but only on t10..... (tier 9 and below is fine...) 

And few pages further:

Quote

 

now we in a ``turning period``, big arty nerf means:
- huge drop of arty
- massive rise of TD
- huge drop of light (coz of less arty and more tds)

however this will also be countered, coz there now so much tds (and thus so little heavys) that medium have more room to move around, also far less light tank, less arty, and more tds, means its now EASIER for arty, so in the next weeks/months the amount of arty will slowly increase again (and more arty means less tds, the numbers will drop, ppl get bored of it, go play arty again etc)

i guess the current situation is ``balanced``, arty can still ruin the day of any td, but its not so strong it makes td play impossible

side effect is heavy tanks have it now HARDER as before, coz TDs are better heavy counters as arty....

wot balance is something like:

arty -> TD -> Heavy -> medium -> light -> Arty

reducing arty, increases TD, which reduces heavy, which increases medium**, more med and less arty mean far less lights

**heavy tanks like amx-120 and T57 are also sort of mediums 

 

And guess what, after the arty nerf, TD numbers exploded, heavy numbers crashed, arty slowly increase again, and TDs switched a bit for mediums...

WG then mega nerfed TDs, but all this did was make arty numbers grow, and while all the other changes (maps, armor buffs, some gold nerfs) certainly benefitted heavys, they also benefit big TDs (and those big tds are the main cause of heavys beiing shit, and thus people playing arty or TDs...)

The last 4 years i have been almost always right when it comes to ``meta-meta predictions``, im like the oracle from the matrix, i dont know the exact path, but i do know the end state...

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IS7 and E100 are still in those lists and still very popular, and E5 will always be popular so that is 3 tier 10 heavies very popular.  And that is tier 10, they are even more popular on lower tiers and stupidly dominant on tiers 7 and 8. 

Where are you getting these players are leaving stuff from? According to WOTnews, for the EU server -

25th August 2014, there were 980k players, 2 years later in June 2016 and we had 949k players, hardly a massive change.

The EU playerbase hit nearly 1.2 million players in January 2016, the most since Fen 2015. 

For a game that has been around 5 years and that obviously some long term players will have got bored with the player numbers for EU look pretty healthy to me.

As for all the rest of the stuff you have said, none of justifies giving heavies half a dozen buffs.

You haven't and cannot justify half the changes on the sandbox. 

There is zero logic in the penetration and penetration at distances changes.

Zero logic in these stupid roles they have forced tanks in.

Zero logic for the accuracy nerfs.

They are completely killing medium and long range combat with these changes, completely nerfing support classes and buffing a class that simply does not need buffs.

I don't really care what you predicted 2 years ago, that does not suddenly make you right here, you have not justified these changes at all.

Like I said, changing arty, changing premium ammo and reducing alpha a bit are a good direction and things that needed changing.

But no has ever moaned about penetration over distance or standard rounds having too much penetration or that guns were too accurate at range and they wanted more RNG.

If you were the oracle you claim to be you'd realise that giving heavy tanks like 6 huge buffs when they are already very strong does not change the meta, it breaks the whole game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, GehakteMolen said:

7: heavys are powerfull on all tiers, except tier 10, they can no longer ``push`` or ``lead the attack``, -> nobody goes in front -> camping

 

On what tier this is true? I'm curious.

While this is possible game will stay shit.

ji8iVWp.jpg

NhLMYIR.pngNhLMYIR.pngNhLMYIR.pngNhLMYIR.pngNhLMYIR.png

 

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8 hours ago, tajj7 said:

IS7 and E100 are still in those lists and still very popular, and E5 will always be popular so that is 3 tier 10 heavies very popular.  And that is tier 10, they are even more popular on lower tiers and stupidly dominant on tiers 7 and 8. 

Where are you getting these players are leaving stuff from? According to WOTnews, for the EU server -

25th August 2014, there were 980k players, 2 years later in June 2016 and we had 949k players, hardly a massive change.

The EU playerbase hit nearly 1.2 million players in January 2016, the most since Fen 2015. 

For a game that has been around 5 years and that obviously some long term players will have got bored with the player numbers for EU look pretty healthy to me.

As for all the rest of the stuff you have said, none of justifies giving heavies half a dozen buffs.

You haven't and cannot justify half the changes on the sandbox. 

There is zero logic in the penetration and penetration at distances changes.

Zero logic in these stupid roles they have forced tanks in.

Zero logic for the accuracy nerfs.

They are completely killing medium and long range combat with these changes, completely nerfing support classes and buffing a class that simply does not need buffs.

I don't really care what you predicted 2 years ago, that does not suddenly make you right here, you have not justified these changes at all.

Like I said, changing arty, changing premium ammo and reducing alpha a bit are a good direction and things that needed changing.

But no has ever moaned about penetration over distance or standard rounds having too much penetration or that guns were too accurate at range and they wanted more RNG.

If you were the oracle you claim to be you'd realise that giving heavy tanks like 6 huge buffs when they are already very strong does not change the meta, it breaks the whole game.

2 years ago we had roughly 200k people online every day (with peeks of 240k and sometimes even more) now 100k, player count got cut in half on EU, on Ru they went from daily peek of 900k (or so) to 400-500k (?)

This website sadly only tracks the last year: https://stats.wotapi.ru/stats/ (this website is slow as shit when you look at long intervals)

And the buffs are justified to make tier 10 like the rest of the game:

  • For red / orange: Heavys > TD > mediums > arty
  • For green: Heavys > mediums / TDs > arty
  • For blue Heavys / mediums > TDs > arty
  • For unicum: Medium > Heavys > TDs > arty

Thats good balance, thats how all tiers except tier 10 are balanced, and that will make tier 10 less ****** and if tier 10 would not be so ****** why the hell do so many good players quit then?

And YES for blues heavys > mediums, numbers > player perception, because most players are filled with bias (also why are spoilers no longer working???) even for unicums heavy are on most tiers already better, a King Tiger is among the better tier 8 tanks, even for unicums, and thats how it should be.

You also shouldnt care too much about current values, any non-retarded game developer knows that any change will cause forum rage, so you better start with the extreme values and tone them down, i bet WG will fiddle with the penetration drop over distance, to make it less harsh and instead nerf some base penetrations a bit, and that will be it

For tier 8 ranking:

 

Quote

 

As a result, the statistical comparison for tier 8 is such a disaster zone that I ran out of colours:

place elimination uniwin superwin
1 IS-3 IS-3 IS-3
2 Pershing T32 T32
3 T32 Ferdinand Ferdinand
4 Obj. 416 KV-4 Pershing
5 AMX 50 100 T-44 T-44
6 110 Pershing KV-4
7 JPanther II O-Ho Obj. 416
8 Rhm.-B. WT Obj. 416 110
9 T69 Tiger II Tiger II
10 T-44 Centurion I Charioteer
11 STA-1 AT 15 Caernarvon
12 ISU-152 Caernarvon Centurion I
13 Tiger II 110 O-Ho
14 Indien-Pz. T69 AMX 50 100
15 Charioteer Charioteer T69
16 Ferdinand T28 AT 15
17 O-Ho ISU-152 ISU-152
18 T-34-2 AMX 50 100 JPanther II
19 SU-101 T28 Prot. Rhm.-B. WT
20 KV-4 JPanther II Panther II
21 AT 15 Panther II T28
22 VK 45.02 A VK 45.02 A T28 Prot.
23 Panther II Rhm.-B. WT VK 45.02 A
24 Caernarvon Indien-Pz. Indien-Pz.
25 Centurion I STA-1 STA-1
26 AMX AC 48 SU-101 TVP VTU
27 T28 Prot. TVP VTU T-34-2
28 TVP VTU T-34-2 SU-101
29 T28 AMX AC 48 AMX AC 48

 

For tier 9 ranking:

 

Quote

 

Comparison with expected winrate at 400 & 500 WN9. Blue for tanks that come out higher than this thread, orange for lower:

place elimination uniwin superwin
1 Škoda T 50 T-10 Škoda T 50
2 M46 Patton Škoda T 50 E 50
3 T-10 ST-I M46 Patton
4 WZ-111 1-4 E 50 T-10
5 Conqueror Conqueror Conqueror
6 T-54 M46 Patton Obj. 430 II
7 E 50 Obj. 430 II ST-I
8 Obj. 430 II VK 45.02 B WZ-111 1-4
9 ST-I WZ-111 1-4 T54E1
10 VK 45.02 B Jagdtiger T-54
11 T54E1 E 75 VK 45.02 B
12 AMX 30 T54E1 E 75
13 T30 T-54 Jagdtiger
14 Jadgtiger T30 AMX 30
15 WZ-120 Tortoise Leopard PT A
16 Leopard PT A AMX 30 T30
17 WT auf Pz. IV Leopard PT A Tortoise
18 E 75 Obj. 704 Centurion 7/1
19 Obj. 704 M103 M103
20 Type 61 T95 WZ-120
21 Centurion 7/1 Centurion 7/1 Type 61
22 Tortoise WZ-120 Obj. 704
23 M103 Type 61 WT auf Pz. IV
24 Conway Type 4 Heavy T95
25 Lorr. 40 t WT auf Pz. IV AMX 50 120
26 SU-122-54 AMX 50 120 Type 4 Heavy
27 Foch Lorr. 40 t Lorr. 40 t
28 AMX 50 120 SU-122-54 Conway
29 T95 Conway SU-122-54
30 Type 4 Heavy Foch Foch

 

For tier 10 tanking:

Quote


place elimination uniwin superwin
1 T110E5 IS-4 T110E5
2 TVP T 50/51 T110E5 TVP T 50/51
3 M48 Patton E 100 IS-4
4 AMX 50B TVP T 50/51 E 100
5 FV215b T110E3 M48 Patton
6 E 100 IS-7 Obj. 140
7 T-62A Obj. 430 B-C 25 t
8 E 50M Centurion AX E 50 M
9 B-C 25 t M48 Patton 113
10 Obj. 140 B-C 25 t IS-7
11 IS-4 113 T-62A
12 STB-1 E 50 M Obj. 430
13 IS-7 Obj. 140 FV215b
14 Centurion AX T-62A T110E3
15 113 FV215b Centurion AX
16 Obj. 430 Maus AMX 50 B
17 T110E3 T110E4 STB-1
18 Obj. 263 AMX 50 B 121
19 Leopard 1 Jg.Pz. E 100 T57 Heavy
20 T57 Heavy T57 Heavy T110E4
21 T110E4 Obj. 263 Leopard 1
22 Maus 121 Maus
23 AMX 30B STB-1 Obj. 263
24 121 Leopard 1 Jg.Pz. E 100
25 Obj. 268 WT auf E 100 AMX 30 B
26 FV215b 183 Type 5 Heavy WT auf E 100
27 Jg.Pz. E 100 AMX 30 B Type 5 Heavy
28 Foch 155 Obj. 268 Obj. 268
29 WT auf E 100 Foch 155 Foch 155
30 FV4005 FV215b 183 FV215b 183
31 Type 5 Heavy FV4005 FV4005


 

Type 5 is ghetto levels of bad, all TDs are atrocious and the only heavys good are OP-E5, IS4 (somehow) and HEAT-E100

Tier 8 and 9 only have some tank-specific problems, and there is not much need to totally upset balance there, only a bit alpha dmg and arty, on tier 10, half the tank is awefull, they are awefull because gimped one-trick ponys**, OP alpha rest worthless, stupid autoloaders (WTF-E100 is atleast gone now, but bat chat is still a mongoloid tank) and just plain bad tanks, obj 268, Foch-155, Tyoe 5, Jp-E100, Maus, they are simply not good,

**many here complain about roles, seriously, did you ever play a tier 10 TD last months, if there is 1 tank class with strict ``roles`` its tier 10 TDs, and they are the ones benefitting, they wont become much better, they will just become ``playable``

7 hours ago, BlackAdder said:

On what tier this is true? I'm curious.

While this is possible game will stay shit.

ji8iVWp.jpg

NhLMYIR.pngNhLMYIR.pngNhLMYIR.pngNhLMYIR.pngNhLMYIR.png

 

On all tiers, almost any tier 6-7**-8-9 heavy (when top tier) can attack good enough, if tier 10 heavys would be more like tier 6, 8/9 it would be fine

**Tier 7 is also a bit problematic, tier 7 mediums are all a bit weak compared to both tier 6 and 8 mediums and tier 7 heavys, while a whole bunch of tier 7 heavys are OP (T29, Tiger, KV3, IS-2b)

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22 minutes ago, GehakteMolen said:

On all tiers, almost any tier 6-7**-8-9 heavy (when top tier) can attack good enough, if tier 10 heavys would be more like tier 6, 8/9 it would be fine

**Tier 7 is also a bit problematic, tier 7 mediums are all a bit weak compared to both tier 6 and 8 mediums and tier 7 heavys, while a whole bunch of tier 7 heavys are OP (T29, Tiger, KV3, IS-2b)

 

Besides IS-3 which can go YOLO sometimes, i don't remember heavy that goes RRR into enemy. On any tier. 

Don't get me wrong part of HT "dominance" is HP. Other than that i don't see how they are superior. Few days ago Panzer 3/4 pen me in T29 hull, so much of yolo swag push. 

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5 minutes ago, BlackAdder said:

Besides IS-3 which can go YOLO sometimes, i don't remember heavy that goes RRR into enemy. On any tier. 

Don't get me wrong part of HT "dominance" is HP. Other than that i don't see how they are superior. Few days ago Panzer 3/4 pen me in T29 hull, so much of yolo swag push. 

Well, a tank like Tiger-P or King Tiger can push (and kill) any same tier tank without much problems, they can also bulldoze multiple lower tiers at once.

They are ofc not imprevious, even a tier 5 can screw a tier 7 (as your example)

That kind of balance is now missing on tier 10, a T44 or Panther II wont win a 1vs1 head on slugfest with a tier 8 heavy, my Lowe murders and medium stupid enough to fight on Lowe hes terms, bu on tier 10? all tier 10 mediums have so much penetration / hp / dpm they can easy engage (and expect to win!) any heavy tank, a maus, which should be like a tier 10 KV4, will get raped hard. Yet a KV4 fighting mediums head on? no chance...(well they have a chance, but that requires skill / effort / teamplay)

Thats what i mean with ``heavys need to be the best``, so that they can be played like heavys on other tiers, heavy balance is also closly tied with TD and arty balance (and gold ammo)

Because be honest, do you really think there is any proper balance tier 10 TD except grille? and E4? they all have either too much alpha dmg, an autoloader, or other stupid ``perks`` and are almost all ``niche`` vehicles / one-trick pony`s

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