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Lights don't need a massive view range advantage, they have excellent camo anyway. I was playing on Airfield the other day in a tier 10 platoon, I was in a 113 at the heavy brawling spot trying to peak onto the actual runway and had two platoon mates on the shelf we were constantly being spotted and couldn't work out why. We were west spawn and it turned out a WZ-131 was in the bush that is on the line of C/D 6, literally about 80-90m from where my tank was and I couldn't spot him despite over 400m view range.

And let's not forget how critical lights can be on Prohk/Fiery or Mailnovka, do we really want that factor on more maps? 

I'd prefer to give them some sort of special ability like the AFVs have in AW, that designated target ability or maybe some smoke or something. 

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Smoke could be cool mechanics, but it would overcomplicate things I think. Most of the WoT players can't understand the vision mechanics as it is. Imagine it changing dynamically with smoke and what not. The army of whiners would flood the forums :)

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1 hour ago, 3MAJ86 said:

Smoke could be cool mechanics, but it would overcomplicate things I think. Most of the WoT players can't understand the vision mechanics as it is. Imagine it changing dynamically with smoke and what not. The army of whiners would flood the forums :)

Yeh maybe but ignorance of the playerbase should never affect decisions IMO. Don't balance around morons.

Plus, it's easier to understand than invisible tanks, you can see smoke and it's obvious you can't see through it. 

They should be adding it to arty as a shell option as well. 

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Any Armored Warfare players following? How does it work in AW in reality? In the small amount of time I've played AW, never used smoke shells, nor did I see someone else using them. They look fun on paper, but I'm not sure about reality.

 

 

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4 hours ago, tajj7 said:

Yeh maybe but ignorance of the playerbase should never affect decisions IMO. Don't balance around morons.

Welcome to Sandbox 101

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20 hours ago, 3MAJ86 said:

Any Armored Warfare players following? How does it work in AW in reality? In the small amount of time I've played AW, never used smoke shells, nor did I see someone else using them. They look fun on paper, but I'm not sure about reality.

 

 

Don't have much experience of them but the few vesicles that have them use the smoke as self defence mainly, overextended? pop smoke and run away.

The arty smoke shells not really seen them used because I don't think you get them until you get a tier 6 arty and then they are unlockable modules. Seen Jingles use them in a PvE game, along with the illumination shells, both seemed a clever idea to me.

I was thinking smoke more along the WOWs lines, like quite a big area that you could conceal several of your tanks in, but maybe with not quite the same duration as WOWs, maybe 30 seconds of duration and then a cooldown or a limited number of charges.

Would give them maybe some more survivability and some tactical options.

I also like the AW designated target thing AFVs have as well, which I think could be another special ability.

To be honest I like a lot of AWs little features like that but don't get on with the general gameplay, though this new mode they have looks interesting. 

I'd love to see many of AWs 'fixes' for WOTs integrated into WOTs. Like counter battery system, different shells for arties, vehicle class special abilities, bigger maps, their ammo balance, the 10% RNG things like that.

 

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Well, we already have the aw designated target thing, it's a skill that makes the tanks you spot visible for 2 more seconds.. but seriously, has anyone ever trained that?

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41 minutes ago, WhatTheSkara said:

Well, we already have the aw designated target thing, it's a skill that makes the tanks you spot visible for 2 more seconds.. but seriously, has anyone ever trained that?

Not really because it's a crew skill and the AW one ensures max damage as well.

Think it would be good to have vehicle class related skills that aren't dependent on crew skills. 

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1 hour ago, tajj7 said:

Not really because it's a crew skill and the AW one ensures max damage as well.

Think it would be good to have vehicle class related skills that aren't dependent on crew skills. 

But it would add too much stuff to the game, it would fuck rng because you're forcing it to roll for max pen/damage every time you spot something.. imagine a 183 platooned with a light on an open map, 3 shots -> 6k damage..

But yeah, class specific skills would be a nice addition to the game, ShitBox already did that with arty stun (even if it's bad/broken), like LT aw thingy, maybe a DPM boost for mediums for like 20s to overcome multiple low hp targets at the same time or maybe HTs being able to call a small arty strike like we had in an April's fool a year ago..

Just some ideas..

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30 minutes ago, WhatTheSkara said:

or maybe HTs being able to call a small arty strike like we had in an April's fool a year ago..

No, just no...

 

I wanted to puke when I first time witnessed what off-map arty/bombing run can do in SH attack/defense.

 

Camping is countered by good map design, not by some gimmick and shitty game mechanics.

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3 minutes ago, 3MAJ86 said:

No, just no...

 

I wanted to puke when I first time witnessed what off-map arty/bombing run can do in SH attack/defense.

 

Camping is countered by good map design, not by some gimmick and shitty game mechanics.

Well, these are ideas on how should class based skills work, I said arty strike because it's the first thing that came to mind, it can be what you want, even something that makes you recover part of your HP or an additional ammo type for some classes (thinking of LTs with an additional HE shell or something like that)

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My sandbox idea is to eliminate RNG from the game, so the better player actually wins. A very novel idea, I'm sure :doge:

On the upside, it would also eliminate most of the rage and hackusations because you can't over/under pen a target or hit it for 563-938 with your Ehundo (that would be 375 dmg difference or about 19% of the average tier 10 HP bar between low and high). It would also make it infinitely easier to balance the game, rather than this eternal number-fudging until an armor value hits a spot where it bounces the right low caliber guns and gets penned by the right high caliber ones. It would even make me play the game again.

But WG and reasonable decisions :facepalm:

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I still wonder why the 25% +/- penetration RNG is still ingame. They always state they want to make the game easier for beginners. What is more frustrating for a new player, that you are able to pen your first shot, but with the next shot on the same spot you bounce? This is really frustrating for new players. Unlike with the dmg done number they don't see a penetration number. They ask themselves if they did something wrong with the second shot etc. Even if they did everything right, they game screws them over. 

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Actually eliminating RNG entirely would massively increase the use and effectiveness of aimbots. 

 

Currently players of around average or better skill levels are able, with a general level of accuracy, to rapidly determine when to aim for what. The RNG makes it so cupola sniping from 300m is a luckfest. No RNG would make it pure aiming, and a aim bot can most certainly aim to tiny targets far away faster than the vast majority of players. 

 

Sure you can get an aimbot but when it stupidly fires at a sliver of a cupola vs a big MG port its not exactly doing anyone halfway competent any favors.

(Purely from the aiming stand point) I still think pen and damage RNG needs a mega nerf.

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2 hours ago, WhatTheSkara said:

But it would add too much stuff to the game, it would fuck rng because you're forcing it to roll for max pen/damage every time you spot something.. imagine a 183 platooned with a light on an open map, 3 shots -> 6k damage..

But yeah, class specific skills would be a nice addition to the game, ShitBox already did that with arty stun (even if it's bad/broken), like LT aw thingy, maybe a DPM boost for mediums for like 20s to overcome multiple low hp targets at the same time or maybe HTs being able to call a small arty strike like we had in an April's fool a year ago..

Just some ideas..

IIRC on AW it's only a max damage roll and the target knows so has the option just to stay in cover, plus it only last like 30 seconds then has a cooldown.

Other ideas are obviously smoke for lights.

Smoke and flare (illumination shells) for arty.

Speed boost is something they have in WOWs, that could be something lights have.

Super heavies could have a small HP repair ability like BBs in WOWs. 

TDs could have some sort of accuracy boost ability. 

 

 

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I still wonder why the 25% +/- penetration RNG is still ingame. They always state they want to make the game easier for beginners. What is more frustrating for a new player, that you are able to pen your first shot, but with the next shot on the same spot you bounce?

Anything that creates more random results favor the worse player in general. Imagine if chess required a die roll every time you tried to take a piece. The worse player is basically always going to lose in chess, but if you add random rolls he could get lucky on rolls and potentially win a game once in a while. My chance of beating some RU chess master is absolutely 0% unless we include the possibility he has a heart attack and dies mid game, but with die rolls it might become 1%. 1% is still > 0.

I think good players sometimes miss some of the details of randomization in tanks. For example, one of the guys I sometimes platoon with is always tinfoil hatting about rigged games. The reality is WG has rigged the game, but not by fixing teams, frequency of tiering, "MA SHOTS ALWAYS MISS BECAUSE RIGGED", or any of the other dumb shit people claim-those would all be stupidly obvious and are also fundamentally unnecessary. They rig games by adding so many random elements into the game that it becomes harder and harder for the skilled player to win.

In particular a couple years back they removed the MM balance between top tier heavies which had existed for years. The bottom line is for an average player it makes zero impact on their odds; 49 is 49 is 49. But for GOOD players getting a low tier game against an enemy team stacked with top tier heavies makes it even more unlikely they'll be able to carry compared to a balanced team composition. WG rigs the shit out of the game, but they do it with random elements because people don't realize the dynamics at work and they aren't really "rigging", they're simply dumping more and more statistical likelihoods against the better players. And then CarbonWard still has like 99.8% WR or some shit, and I'm sure they pull their hair out because they can drop him into a tier 10 game with a knife and a loincloth and he'll still have 4 kills by the end and win by capping.

You would think randomization would turn off new players but you have to remember randomization acts like a rubber band; it doesn't just hold back the good player, it also pulls forward the bad one. I've joked before this game is the only game I know where the better a player gets the more likely they are to quit playing. That's in part because the better you get the harder and harder the rubber band pulls on you to drag you back down. As you get better you become more and more aware of the pull and increasingly resent it. What people miss is that when you're bad this game also totally high fives you and showers you with achievements. "You clicked the purple guy and one shotted him, ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED!" You have to remember that even though reds get their butts kicked disproportionately, it also makes it seem like a bigger deal to them when they occasionally get to kill teh purple guy. It's like a lottery, you lose overall but people tend to remember that one big win more than all the times they wasted a dollar. If you removed all the random elements you'd have a purple jack off paradise where the reds would almost never get to extract sweet revenge with the occasional lucky win. Random reinforcement basically: winning 1/10 can be intoxicating to people, while winning 0/10 eventually makes even the most stubborn of red give up.

I've noticed too with my irl friends this game tended to really hit it off with them at first, and then about the time they start hitting dark green skill level they all lost interest and drifted away. To an extent I think RNG plays a part. When they're new, the game is forgiving and gives them a leg up, but as they start to get good they feel the pull of the rubber band against them and begin developing an increasing sense of frustration.

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6 hours ago, 3MAJ86 said:

No, just no...

I wanted to puke when I first time witnessed what off-map arty/bombing run can do in SH attack/defense.

Camping is countered by good map design, not by some gimmick and shitty game mechanics.

:serb:

Nice joke ^^

People will always camp, only on maps like Ensk, where there are simply too much alleys, and no bush people cant camp (hence the hate a part of the playerbase has for it)

Same stalingrad is a terrible camp map, unlike say Prokhorovka, which is a campers dream

What i said 30 pages ago, the following things exclude eachother:

  • Tier 10 TDs
  • Autoloaders
  • Gold ammo
  • Open maps
  • super accuracte high penetration guns
  • Arty
  • No camping

You cant have all of the above at the same time, it wont work, it never did and never will, WG also wont ever remove tier 10 TDs or arty, so the only solution is:

  • Mega nerf gold ammo to make long range camping with average tanks impossible
  • Nerf normal penetration to make sniping much more a niche role
  • Rework all tier 10 TDs
  • Nerf Autoloaders / rebalance
  • Rework arty (further nerfing is pointless, the moronic alpha dmg is the problem NOT the god view the alpha dmg and one shots)

If all of the above is done (so say sandbox...) then and only then WG can think of adding open maps...

People are laxy, stupid and shit in wot, so they WILL camp, only if WG makes tanks so bad they can no longer snipe / camp, people will start to move, aka: put all red idiots in heavys....

WG also knows this, but they fear the rage of all the forum whiners, i had at first hope, but it takes way, way too long by now, so unless we get a suprise patch :serb: and they random add it with patch 9.17, i doubt we will see much of it

ps: i guess they will change arty and all TDs and perhaps nerf some penetration left and right, and that it, imo a shame, because while it will fix many issues it wont fix the underlaying problems....

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4 hours ago, Jesse_the_Scout said:

Much text, many read, wow

This is part of the reason why unicums and generally good (seriously good, not t67 stetpidars) players stick to high tiers (9/10)..

By doing that you vastly reduce the chance of WG shitting on you, because tier 9s are actually strong even in tier 10 games and you rarely are on the bottom third of the list (you can always shit on someone)..

I have noticed that despite having a lot of tier 8s I mainly play tier 7s, 9s and 10s (I do play tier 8s, but mostly LTs which can be considered tier 9s MM wise) because being cannon fodder is not the reason I play this game.. I want to have fun, and fun is not desperately trying to fight tanks that can sneeze at me and take half of my hp and modules out.. unless you have a fetish for getting wrecked every single match you play :doge:

Then we have carbon and vetro that can enter a tier 10 game in a loltraktor and still end up on the winning team being top damage, but they are exceptions..

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16 hours ago, GehakteMolen said:

:serb:

Nice joke ^^

People will always camp, only on maps like Ensk, where there are simply too much alleys, and no bush people cant camp (hence the hate a part of the playerbase has for it)

Same stalingrad is a terrible camp map, unlike say Prokhorovka, which is a campers dream

What i said 30 pages ago, the following things exclude eachother:

  • Tier 10 TDs
  • Autoloaders
  • Gold ammo
  • Open maps
  • super accuracte high penetration guns
  • Arty
  • No camping

You cant have all of the above at the same time, it wont work, it never did and never will, WG also wont ever remove tier 10 TDs or arty, so the only solution is:

  • Mega nerf gold ammo to make long range camping with average tanks impossible
  • Nerf normal penetration to make sniping much more a niche role
  • Rework all tier 10 TDs
  • Nerf Autoloaders / rebalance
  • Rework arty (further nerfing is pointless, the moronic alpha dmg is the problem NOT the god view the alpha dmg and one shots)

If all of the above is done (so say sandbox...) then and only then WG can think of adding open maps...

People are laxy, stupid and shit in wot, so they WILL camp, only if WG makes tanks so bad they can no longer snipe / camp, people will start to move, aka: put all red idiots in heavys....

WG also knows this, but they fear the rage of all the forum whiners, i had at first hope, but it takes way, way too long by now, so unless we get a suprise patch :serb: and they random add it with patch 9.17, i doubt we will see much of it

ps: i guess they will change arty and all TDs and perhaps nerf some penetration left and right, and that it, imo a shame, because while it will fix many issues it wont fix the underlaying problems....

Completely disagree. like I said a few pages back Tier 10 is fine, nerf arty, nerf high alpha, better balance premium ammo, nerf the too powerful tanks and it would be fine.

Several of the sandbox changes were and forever will be completely stupid.

The games works, the game has always at a base level worked, it just needs tweaking not breaking and made for retards to rrr in heavy tanks.

If sandbox went through, people would still camp, they'd just do it in heavy tanks because no one else would be be playing anything else. 

You can also have open maps with all that above stuff, you just need to make them bigger so they can't clog lanes. Good map design basically, make good spots areas you fight over and for, not ones handed on a plate like half the maps we have now that have OP base camping spots with open areas fronting them.

Tanks like the Grille are no problem in isolation, the problem is there are 3-4 grilles all camping in one spot looking down with bush cover that overlooks one/two avenues of approach and players only ever have one or two other options that usually have 2/3 more campers sitting over open ground as well. 

Bigger maps, multiple lanes and no base camping spots.

90% of tier 10s these days is go to protected brawl spot A or protected brawl spot B, neither of which have any interaction with, win/lose flank, avoid getting shat on by arty during this time, either flex back to defend base because the other flank has lost or spend the next 5 minutes trying to dig out base campers who had to drive 20m from spawn and get an elevated position with concealment, no ability to flank them and no cover on most of the approaches. 

Better maps and you'll have better gameplay. 

 

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7 hours ago, tajj7 said:

Completely disagree. like I said a few pages back Tier 10 is fine, nerf arty, nerf high alpha, better balance premium ammo, nerf the too powerful tanks and it would be fine.

Several of the sandbox changes were and forever will be completely stupid.

The games works, the game has always at a base level worked, it just needs tweaking not breaking and made for retards to rrr in heavy tanks.

If sandbox went through, people would still camp, they'd just do it in heavy tanks because no one else would be be playing anything else. 

You can also have open maps with all that above stuff, you just need to make them bigger so they can't clog lanes. Good map design basically, make good spots areas you fight over and for, not ones handed on a plate like half the maps we have now that have OP base camping spots with open areas fronting them.

Tanks like the Grille are no problem in isolation, the problem is there are 3-4 grilles all camping in one spot looking down with bush cover that overlooks one/two avenues of approach and players only ever have one or two other options that usually have 2/3 more campers sitting over open ground as well. 

Bigger maps, multiple lanes and no base camping spots.

90% of tier 10s these days is go to protected brawl spot A or protected brawl spot B, neither of which have any interaction with, win/lose flank, avoid getting shat on by arty during this time, either flex back to defend base because the other flank has lost or spend the next 5 minutes trying to dig out base campers who had to drive 20m from spawn and get an elevated position with concealment, no ability to flank them and no cover on most of the approaches. 

Better maps and you'll have better gameplay. 

 

Bigger maps wont ever work for tanks with a top speed of 30 or less (and even tanks which do go faster, like KT or IS4 will suffer a lot)

Even current ``big maps`` like Stalingrad, where there is often lots of driving involved, is already not that good for slow heavys (i hate stalingrad with maus / E3 / super slow tank, since its just too far driving) and thats on a city map, on an open map it would be way, way worse.

And if it comes down to:

  • small maps so slow, but real, famous, tanks are playable
  • big maps, so fast, fake and cold war tanks are playable

i would 100% choose for the slowpokes, wot is so good, because its a 1930-1950 tank game, it gained track because of the Maus, Tiger and T-34, and those tanks made wot to what it is, AW a wot clone with modern tanks is a failure, and the reason is 100% because its a modern tank game, wot 2.0, if it ever comes, will also be a failure, no ww2 = no good tank game...

(unless you add infantry, choppers, wheel vehicles and make it a combined arms game, but pure tank vs tank, a modern game will always be shit, all modern tanks are the same, and thats boring....)

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13 hours ago, GehakteMolen said:

Bigger maps wont ever work for tanks with a top speed of 30 or less (and even tanks which do go faster, like KT or IS4 will suffer a lot)

Even current ``big maps`` like Stalingrad, where there is often lots of driving involved, is already not that good for slow heavys (i hate stalingrad with maus / E3 / super slow tank, since its just too far driving) and thats on a city map, on an open map it would be way, way worse.

And if it comes down to:

  • small maps so slow, but real, famous, tanks are playable
  • big maps, so fast, fake and cold war tanks are playable

i would 100% choose for the slowpokes, wot is so good, because its a 1930-1950 tank game, it gained track because of the Maus, Tiger and T-34, and those tanks made wot to what it is, AW a wot clone with modern tanks is a failure, and the reason is 100% because its a modern tank game, wot 2.0, if it ever comes, will also be a failure, no ww2 = no good tank game...

(unless you add infantry, choppers, wheel vehicles and make it a combined arms game, but pure tank vs tank, a modern game will always be shit, all modern tanks are the same, and thats boring....)

At that point If you want a combined arms game you just play ArmA 3..

Matching ww2 era tanks with post ww2 tanks was a horrible mistake, take the is3/kt duo, is3 will always shit on tiger because it was developed later, with newer ideas behind it..

Big maps are not a problem for slow tanks if they are designed with game balance between the teams as a priority..

Once maps are reworked wg can finally fix the flaws in premium ammo mechanics and other things..

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38 minutes ago, WhatTheSkara said:

take the is3/kt duo, is3 will always shit on tiger because it was developed later, with newer ideas behind it..

RL IS-3 was much worse than KT.

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4 hours ago, MacusFlash said:

RL IS-3 was much worse than KT.

Arguable.

The 122mm had better penetration than the 88mm L/56 (less than the KT 88) but could not pen the KT frontally. Instead, it could blast it with HE and kill it.

"Shot #1. Target: upper front plate. Shell: 122 mm HE-fragmentation.

Result: spalling across an area 300 mm by 300 mm. The welding seam between the upper front plate and the machine gun port burst on 3/4 of its circumference. Internal bolts holding the machine gun ball were torn off. The welding seam between the upper front plate and the right side burst, and the right side was displaced by 5 mm. The tank caught fire internally."
 
 
In terms of crew comfort, IS-3 was terrible. But both tanks could kill each other from any combat range and the IS-3 sure was less expensive and had better anti-infantry performance (which is what 90% of engagements are about)

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