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Jagdpanzer IV, best TD ever?

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I played my E 25 again last night. Damn, I suck in that tank. I just can't get it!  I think I'll sell it and buy the JgPz IV back. That's what the crew in the E 25 are trained for anyway. 

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Even back in the day when it still faced tier 9's, I found it a rather enjoyable tank to play. I liked it more than the StuG, mainly because the higher tier guns couldn't one shot you. The tank is super sneaky,  is relatively fast and mobile and the gun, I used the StuG's gun, is somewhat reliable.

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9 hours ago, bask185 said:

could use more.png
If you would have read better you would have come across this line.

I saw only this:

103 JagdPz IV TD DE 6 637 56.99%

Got it from here:

http://www.noobmeter.com/player/eu/bask185/500359874/

 

I get, you improved...nice someone is actually able to make tier 6 TDs work in randoms (solo, because if platooned it is worth jack shit, any tier 3 3 man platoon will rock).

Still, being forced to play a slow tank with no turret, rather blind, and with worse penn then same tier medium...OH, god, why.

Like 34-85 without turret and with worse gold rounds...no, wait, like Type 58 with more alpha and ROF, but no turret (or speed).

I would rather spam gold from l70, uptiered STUG with bad mm. At least it hits moving targets and penetrate tier 8s. Much worse against tier 6, though.

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13 hours ago, UnusualMedic said:

That tank was the first one that I managed to stay purple in from start to finish. It is just awesome and I love it.

 

You need to use the Stug III gun though.

the 88 got buffed, its now a far better gun due to the dpm and alpha

it has 145 standard pen, and the apcr is good enough until you face tier 8 heavies/hull down americans/jap heavies, but everything tier 6 struggles with those.

220 damage every 4-4.5 seconds is insane on a tier 6.

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145 pen on tier VI is not bad or something. You have the same pen as the majority of the mediums. And AFAIK I can pen about every tier 7 tank with exception of the jap HT and perhaps the blackprince

@Felicius Why do you call the JP4 blind? Cuz of 350m viewrange? There are those things called binocs which give me 447 meter viewrange today. Ofcourse this is not the best among tier VI TD, but to call it blind.. isnt that a just tad exaggerated? And I am even yet to train situational awareness as well as recon.

I just finished grinding the su85 with 280 meter view range.. now that is blind. (less than tier 1 tank, good balance there WG)

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36 minutes ago, bask185 said:

145 pen on tier VI is not bad or something. You have the same pen as the majority of the mediums. And AFAIK I can pen about every tier 7 tank with exception of the jap HT and perhaps the blackprince

@Felicius Why do you call the JP4 blind? Cuz of 350m viewrange? There are those things called binocs which give me 447 meter viewrange today. Ofcourse this is not the best among tier VI TD, but to call it blind.. isnt that a just tad exaggerated? And I am even yet to train situational awareness as well as recon.

I just finished grinding the su85 with 280 meter view range.. now that is blind. (less than tier 1 tank, good balance there WG)

You are right here. 145 is right on top on medium values (only l70 have better, but only 5 mm). 

But medium tanks as a class (below tier 10, and some exceptions at tier 9) generally have the worst penetration values as a class in all tiers (often recycling TD or heavy guns from one or even two tiers lower). TDs are on top, but they are closely followed by heavies - for example in tier 6 almost heavies have penetration of 160-175 (90, 100, 107 & 122 mm guns) AP and well over 200 on gold rounds (90 mm the highest, 243). There are a few exceptions like ISU-both shells, and 416-HEAT (which I have both) that are on top of penetration range (as well as alpha/dpm) in their categories.

So to say "XY has penetration values of a medium" is basically saying you have more penn than a light, so you are not Kanonenjagdpanzer level of shit penn, and you said that only for the AP rounds, because gold rounds from short 88 have the worst penetration in its tier (even tier 4 M1A1 has better)

So, heavies in tier 6 are also as mobile as Jgpz IV, and they also have a turret - no need to explain how the turret adds the positioning and mobility advantage over casemate tanks. Flanking enemies in M6 is feasible, but the tank never even needs it...

I have the issues with Jgpz chassis and crap gold ammo.

Because a medium tank can flank, and get over the low pen values - but most in fact do not need at all. Crommie has 202 gold pen, T-34-85 has 194, which is very good for punching even tier 8 tanks frontally when needed (thank WG map design for that).

I admit I hate tanks with low penetration values (at least if they have no good gold rounds like T-34, or great autoloader like Bulldog), and my garage keepers reflect that (I kept T-28, T-34, T67, Crommie, T-150, Tiger, T-29, IS-3, ISU-152), etc...

But problem is that casemate TDs are simply unable to engage top tier opponents without great penetration. 

Playing Jgpz IV like a TD-medium hybrid may be the best course of action given the gun choices, but it gets boring fast, and most players do not like it. If they wanted to play a medium, they would pick one in the first place. 

Maybe you misunderstood my statement regarding the "blindness" of the Jgpz IV. I like binos, too, so much i run them on my Crommie, T-34, T-28, T67, etc, but all those have turrets. Once you reset the tracks (and with Jgpz 4 you do it all the time), they are inactive...so despite good camo rating and more view range than for instance T67/Kitty, Jgpz "feels" blind due to no turret+too slow to get to spots that enable spotting+earl damage...Like middle of Lakeville, Fishermans bay mid ridge, Prokhorovka middle bush (you can spot whole enemy team traversing the rails on startup with binos and 60 kn/h top speed), etc.

Tanks like T67/hellcat can do it, and play a Medium/TD/light hybrid(passive spotting, of course).

They can also run away like smoke and oakum when shit hits the fan, reset the cap, or reinforce the falling flank.

10 k battles ago heroic last stands were fun to me, but now i detest them, preferring vision kiting and dmg farming when I can.

 

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On 4.11.2016 at 11:21 AM, Felicius said:

That is why you first pick up speed, to beat his traverse. Once you get past his gun (and no hard cover), JP4 is toasted.

Also, Crommie is not easy to track if he shows you his only his side, or frontal unangled profile. Since the tank has no armor at all no use of angling 45 deg while rushing ppl (ppl play other, higher tier meds where this is viable, then jump back in Crommie) Tracks are very, very narrow, but if you give them 45 deg side, much easier to track.

http://www.wotinfo.net/en/noobcorner?article=hitzone_cromwell

Bottom line is, if JP 4 is in good position, you can mostly ignore it. I run Binos to dig them out (and fire on them without me seeing them) most of the times. Circle of death is mostly cleanup damage, where you sacrifice your health for more $ and WN8, since the battle is already won.

@bask185

You have much better WR and DPG in your Crommie, but also in Firefly (basically a turreted TD), even meh tanks like VK 30.02 M. Not sure why you are so enthusiastic about JP4.

Sure, it can farm dmg top tier like no other, but it has very weak carry capability due to low value in higher tier battles as a support TD, and even in its own tier it has low view range, and overall bad mobility.

Also, in this meta, slow tanks are simply in danger of being outcapped.

Comparing short 88 mm gun with USA 90 mm is a insult. Yes, Kitty and jackson have some serious issues - Kitty has bad soft stats, and turn like a whale, but it is still excellent mobility for deployment and relocating, great camo AND view range, while Jackson has better ROF, and overall armor better than JP4, a fucking turret, and both (add SU 100 there) have AP as good as JP4 gold, with gold 70 mm better penn, meaning you are not useless in tier 7-8 against serious heavies.

Also, with turret you can pop corners and shoot those heavies with APCR in a brawl while they reload. It helps much where you are actually needed. 

That is because small calibre rounds have much more module damage compared to higher calibre ones, relative to their damage in hitpoints. Just take a look at tier 1-3 autocannons, their module dmg is even better.

Crommie is a bad tank for engaging other mediums (almost all have better alpha/soft stats/even some armor to troll your 1 shot), so dogfighting is generally a bad tactic. SH is something other. 

I play randoms 99%, and there I can pick up my fights. Generally, I got hit by 240-390 or bigger alphas (since in fastbois there are only pew-pews, in randoms you see more tds, and high tiers all the time, even meds have biger alphas like 34-85, VK 30.01P, Skoda with 88 mm...), which are much easier on my modules compared to pew-pew guns. Crommie is a tank that always have something to leverage against others, be it speed, camo, view range, or something other. DPM fights are last whyt you need, and viable only when you have more 2x HP than other tank. DPM on a Crommie is there so you can use it on tanks that do not fire back. Put 1-3 shots in enemy, and relocate before shells go your way. 

Please again TD"s are not meant to be 1 vs 1 tanks. Yes you are right that the JPZ is not amazing in any one thing except for DPM but a bit like the Pershing it has a ton of thngs where it's above average creating a very easily abusable tank. Plus high camo on low triers really works given most players run 75-90% crews.

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All I can say is that after the short 88 pen buff, I don't want to sell it anymore.

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Hrm...so I did find the short 88 a bit of an adjustment after I started using it.  I actually found the StG IIIG a better "DPM 'em down from afar" vehicle, ditto the JPIV with the StGIII gun.  I do agree that, even buffed, the pen can be a bit lacking...sometimes.  But in a tier 8 match, you can sometimes compensate with mobility and positioning to find the right shots, and you can help clean up in the endgame.  The gun handling feels pretty decent, and as top tier it's pretty monstrous. I just got my first Radley-Walters in it, so even in my much-less-than-capable hands, it can do well:

5e0x85F.jpg

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I rebought this to work on t55a missions (specifically TD 8.3, which requires 4xHP in damage), and I had forgotten just how comfy it is.  And getting another MoE is always more satisfying in an Ace game:

QwRt6xZ.png

I have managed 2600+ before in this tank, so I know 4xHP is doable.  I am likely going to keep this around, b/c it's flat-out a pretty enjoyable tank to play.  I vastly prefer it to e.g. the SU-100, b/c it has better camo, dpm (over 2800 without a BIA crew or food), and monstrously better gun handling.  VBAddict claims 3 MoE is around 1250, which feels very, very doable, so I'll likely give it a try after banking some credits.

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I have a 14% WR in this tank, its horrific.  I mean a legitimate contender for the worst tank I've ever played.  I've switched to food and 100% APCR to try and win a few games so that it won't be so painful to free XP.  The SU-100 literally shits down this things neck in every single way.  I got outspotted by an IS-6.

DPM is meaningless on a tank that misses every shot, gets spotted instantly, and can't bounce tier 4s.  FFS, I have a feelin a rage sell is coming.

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1 hour ago, Archaic_One said:

I have a 14% WR in this tank, its horrific.  I mean a legitimate contender for the worst tank I've ever played.  I've switched to food and 100% APCR to try and win a few games so that it won't be so painful to free XP.  The SU-100 literally shits down this things neck in every single way.  I got outspotted by an IS-6.

DPM is meaningless on a tank that misses every shot, gets spotted instantly, and can't bounce tier 4s.  FFS, I have a feelin a rage sell is coming.

Huh?  jpiv has identical view range to su100, nearly identical (but I suspect slightly better) camo (100/100/100/12 camo, no BIA gives me 43.75 in jpiv, 100/100/100/59 + BIA gives me 44.03 in su-100, both running camo/vents).  Gun handling is superior in the jp, and the only way su gets dispersion that even comes close is by running the 85mm, but you're giving ground to the jpiv in both pen and alpha to get that).

IS6 has identical VR as well, but I assume you didn't actually mean that.  But maybe I'm wrong.

The only way in which the SU beats the jpiv IMHO is mobility.  Everything else is either a wash or advantage jpiv.  I'm surprised you hate it this much, b/c I honestly find it a really easy tank to play.  Assuming I have the right player, it looks to me like you only have 13 games in it, so I'd wager that's a way insufficient sample size.  Your dpg is about the same in both tanks, so maybe you've just gotten crappy teams...?

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Running food, camo skills, and with camo net up the stationary camo rating was around 66.

Park behind a bush and it's ridiculously high.

 

Some Ace Tanker replays below 

http://wotreplays.eu/site/3694063#malinovka-sammich-jagdpanzer_iv

http://wotreplays.eu/site/3669090#stats

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I think the problem is that I play all casement TDs as assault guns and this was definitely not suitable for assault gun play.  The SU will bounce a shot occasionally and the alpha is enough to make same tier tanks shy, plus it has good pen for tier.  Trying to follow behind heavies in this tank is pretty useless. 

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It's an ambush TD.  It's only an assault TD if you're top tier and late game when you can blap low health enemies.

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3 hours ago, Archaic_One said:

I think the problem is that I play all casement TDs as assault guns and this was definitely not suitable for assault gun play.  The SU will bounce a shot occasionally and the alpha is enough to make same tier tanks shy, plus it has good pen for tier.  Trying to follow behind heavies in this tank is pretty useless. 

I don't think the line works as assault guns until Ferdi.

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On 1/16/2018 at 11:54 AM, Tanager said:

I rebought this to work on t55a missions (specifically TD 8.3, which requires 4xHP in damage), and...

I just finished 8.3 with 2730 dmg in a losing effort (which are sometimes where you get the most damage in a TD).  Currently 22nd on NA, I'm thinking of trying for my first 3-mark on it.

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