Jump to content
kolni

New Overmatch Mechanics

Recommended Posts

The green section just means normal penetration calculations take place and not that the shell autopens, right?

NA site lists green as "penetration" while EU lists green as "no ricochet".  I think the EU interpretation is the correct one here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Even more bullshit :D, now a cdc will be able to bounce a 170mm shell, good job WG! And also buff to the cancerous jap heavys plus the broken as fuck E5. Now with the introduction of the new swedish tier X TD, tier X will be full of those shits that are literally inmune from the front (so WG will happily bring back the game to pre 8.6 standards -minus the vision game- good job WG!). They should just release a map that's a corridor with bushes in the back, so heavys bounce each other while tds do damage and artys kill tds SO MUCH FUN!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Srs question: Will this make the Foch/French TD's relevant again? 

 

I rage sold the T7 one because of giant roof tumor + autopen side armor was infuriating. You try wiggling at all to make the tumor harder to hit and the side armor negates everything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only real explanation i can think of for them fucking the gameplay beyond belief is that they realized that the game is dead, so they'll try to milk the cows forcing a full gold loadout plus the release of a slew of "better than regular tanks" prems. They'll kill the game in less than a year and probably focus "entirely" on ships.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What bothers me most is that they're continuing to ignore +/-25% rng and the fucking ridiculous shot distribution that has you missing over and over again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Rexxie said:

Agh, that's a really rough system. Why would they do that if their goal is streamlining/making the mechanics simpler? It removes the fairly obscure overmatch system, but now pen numbers will be much less unreliable. You have to take into the account the size of your gun now too - a 122mm gun might work fine against a target, but then an 88 with the same pen can't deal with it from the same angle. How would a newbie know whats going on?

 

For "realism"

215b triple toon of death time 99% WR 6000dpg

4 hours ago, Cunicularius said:

What bothers me most is that they're continuing to ignore +/-25% rng and the fucking ridiculous shot distribution that has you missing over and over again.

Don't like it? Don't play it for 11,000+ matches. I like the RNG as it does add another layer for me to be superior to pubbies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Nkrlz said:

The only real explanation i can think of for them fucking the gameplay beyond belief is that they realized that the game is dead, so they'll try to milk the cows forcing a full gold loadout plus the release of a slew of "better than regular tanks" prems. They'll kill the game in less than a year and probably focus "entirely" on ships.

I didn't realise these changes were only meant for NA. :kappa:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Raj said:

I like the RNG as it does add another layer for me to be superior to pubbies.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

RNG is in the game exactly to limit good players. It doesn't matter that much that you know and aim for the correct spot 24/7 when RNG guides your shot into the Nirwana. But for the clueless pubbie that aims in the general direction of the enemy RNG can work wonders by guiding the shell where it needs to be instead where he aims...

6 hours ago, Nkrlz said:

The only real explanation i can think of...

Well. If you read these boards a bit then you might have stumbled over the Sandbox thread where several players speculated that WG will buff armor becaus ethat is what they aimed for with all the Sandbox changes - to make the game less deadly and less long range...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Rexxie said:

Why would they do that if their goal is streamlining/making the mechanics simpler?

Because that isn't their goal... WG wants players to understand what they should do in their tank AND feel confident about the results when doing it. Again, that means armor needs to be worth more, especially at range. Sloped armor works very well with range - until it is overmatched, then, suddenly, it doesn't work at all.

The new system will change that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, WorldConqueror said:

Well I agree that bloom and terrain resistances should be shown in the game, and there should be an armor viewer. I wasn't dumping on overmatch as a mechanic, just the situation we have had for however many years where it is both in the game and undocumented.

This is one of the mayor flaws of WG. Introduction of very simple tutorial (this is your tank, left click to shot, WASD to move, nothing more) took them years. In-game tankpedia doesn't exist while wotwiki is full of useful data. Just code this functionality and add text from wiki.

19 hours ago, WorldConqueror said:

Though I do think this new system makes it more consistent with the effective armour concept rather than caliber vs thickness being the sole factor. Would have to see it in action before I would say it's 'better' for gameplay though.

I'd like to see real life overmatch implemented into WoT. http://ruhrpottpatriot.tumblr.com/post/73235077911/crash-course-tanks-overmatching-and-why-some

19 hours ago, WorldConqueror said:

And with things like bloom and terrain resistances at least they were part of known systems, they might contradict the provided stats but they don't negate mechanics. The spotting system was hinted at with view range even if the peculiarities weren't explained. And with the addition of camo values and the minimap range circles they've come a long way in making it more readily understandable.

Well, ricochets negate part of mechanics too. Plate at 80 degrees has about 200mm effective armor. A shell with 400mm of penetration should go through it but due to angle it doesn't 

19 hours ago, Rexxie said:

Can someone explain how this system works? Is it like, the higher your caliber the more normalization you'll get, but no more overmatch? Or does the maximum impact angle before you ricochet just change? Its hard for me to understand without numbers.

As far as I understand - both but pictures show us the latter. We have to wait too see it on open test.

@Jaegaer

Because that isn't their goal... WG wants players to understand what they should do in their tank AND feel confident about the results when doing it. Again, that means armor needs to be worth more, especially at range. Sloped armor works very well with range - until it is overmatched, then, suddenly, it doesn't work at all.

The new system will change that.

Can't recall any tank with sloped armor that is vulnerable to overmatch but works against normal shots. Overmatchable zones are small or the entire tanks (mostly LT) are overmatch zones.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Sapros said:

I didn't realise these changes were only meant for NA. :kappa:

Eu still has less players than it used to (even though i don't know about rasha and that's the only player base they care about), and belive me when a fucking noob starts palying and realizes that he literally can't do anything against 70% of the enemy team he'll complain more than dying in 2 seconds.

7 hours ago, Jaegaer said:

Well. If you read these boards a bit then you might have stumbled over the Sandbox thread where several players speculated that WG will buff armor becaus ethat is what they aimed for with all the Sandbox changes - to make the game less deadly and less long range...

I read them and that makes the game 10000000000000 worse, and already argued a ton in the sandbox thread in this forum. The reds will eternally complain the second someone kills them, or the second they lose 20 matches in a row because they can't breathe and play at the same time. And like i said over there, the retards will be 10x more frustrated when pressing 2-2 will not allow them to do anything (maybe in EU they will be happy EU reds are cheap bastards apparently), and they will switch to TDs and arty. And we will be back at a shittier version of pre 8.6, the same random bullshit, the same cancerous arty, effectively the same shitty 3+/- mm -'cause you will not be able to pen half the enemy if they use their brains- , but with even worse maps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Rexxie said:

Can someone explain how this system works? Is it like, the higher your caliber the more normalization you'll get, but no more overmatch? Or does the maximum impact angle before you ricochet just change? Its hard for me to understand without numbers.

That's how I understand it, the green "pen" lable is a bit misleading but I'd interpret it as "zone where the shell tries to penetrate the armour" (instead of a ricochet).

 

Time to play some IS-6 before patch comes..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Rexxie said:

I also want to point out why overmatch is in the game in the first place. It wasn't implemented as some high level tactic that you can use to abuse badly armored weakspots, but as a reliability measure. People kept complaining about scouts bouncing their T30's doomstick, and 3x overmatch was brought in to make that much rarer. If cases like "CDC sidescrapes a JPE" actually becomes possible, then the old problem of frustrating bounces off paper tanks will be back again.

On top of the bullshit crit hits and the bat bounces that happen so frequently in WGL :serb:

17 hours ago, Cunicularius said:

What bothers me most is that they're continuing to ignore +/-25% rng and the fucking ridiculous shot distribution that has you missing over and over again.


The fact that the easiest solution - which is to reduce RNG to a smaller number when fully aimed - still hasn't been implemented in mind fucking boggling.

You still get the random snaps for RNG videos but at least you don't get cucked as hard for fully aiming every shot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This "new" mechanic already exists, really. If your gun caliber is >2x the thickness of armor your normalization is increased to standard normalization * 1.4 * (caliber/thickness), so as far as I can tell this is just the existing thing but with (possibly) tweaked numbers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, StranaMechty said:

This "new" mechanic already exists, really. If your gun caliber is >2x the thickness of armor your normalization is increased to standard normalization * 1.4 * (caliber/thickness), so as far as I can tell this is just the existing thing but with (possibly) tweaked numbers.

There's only a handful of guns in the game (all low/mid tier AP howitzers, iirc) where 2x overmatch can do anything at all. It's basically a non-mechanic, I'm not entirely sure why 2x overmatch even exists.

A normalization gradient for each caliber would be a huge, huge change from 2x overmatch because it would change the effective pen for virtually every shot. If it's just a ricochet gradient, I can't see a problem with it. The removal of 3x overmatch is going to hurt regardless, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Nkrlz said:

the retards will be 10x more frustrated when pressing 2-2 will not allow them to do anything

And exactly that will not happen because these guys will jump into their heavys, be mostly invulnerable UNTIL up close and then duke it out.

Today the reds get slaughtered driving anywhere and after they finally arrived they can't do much either because they never learned to press the "skill" key (or are too cheap). So they play arty and TD and kemp the few remaining bushes while enjoying the highest base pen and alpha in game. Fun and engaging...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everyone should keep in mind that at the rate WG is buffing tanks pretty much every tank that will struggle to pen stuff without overmatch will almost definitely get buffed in a patch or two.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to point out that whilst 3x overmatch will be less potent than before (i.e. it only pushes the ricochet angle back to ~76 degrees instead of being basically autopen at any angle), the ricochet angle is actually being increased slightly for guns with less than 3x overmatch. Previously, 90mm and 122mm guns would ricochet at 70 degrees against 50mm of armour, but the diagram states that it would be 72/74 degrees under the new system. This means that sidescraping with thin (but not super thin) side armour is in fact more difficult against most opponents.

Now, this is conjecture because there isn't sufficient information to draw reliable conclusions, but this is how I think it works: the ricochet angle is increased in a linear fashion based on how much a shell's calibre exceeds the armour thickness.

90/50 -> 1.8x overmatch and 2 extra degrees.
0.8 / 2 = 0.4

122/50 -> 2.44x overmatch and 4 extra degrees
1.44 / 4 = 0.36

152/50 -> 3.04x overmatch and 6 extra degrees
2.04 /6  = 0.34

So my best guess is that you get one extra degree per ~35-40% in excess of the armour thickness. It's likely that the angles stated in the diagram are rounded, so that could easily explain why the results vary a bit.

Assuming this is correct, a 90mm gun would ricochet off 20mm thick armour at 80 degrees, so you would have to shoot at an IS-3's turret roof from a slight elevation to reliably penetrate (it's angled at 84 degrees).

 


Bear in mind that there is no indication as to how, or if, the normalisation bonus is changed.

Currently it's only relevant when:

-Your gun is a potato, because e.g. a 100mm gun will easily penetrate a 50mm plate at anything less than autobounce angle unless it has really low pen for its calibre.

-Your gun also 3x overmatches and you're trying to shoot at something extremely well angled (e.g. 50mm @ 85 degrees would be 288mm effective against AP without the normalisation bonus, so even the BL-10 would struggle). The normalisation bonus is so substantial that it results in basically guaranteed penetration, however.

I seriously doubt it's going to kick in immediately when calibre exceeds the armour thickness (as opposed to the current 2x threshold). The reason is that you would have to calculate effective armour on a case-by-case basis, which complicates things unnecessarily.

 

 

It would be nice if the devs published the actual formulas...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How much a buff is this to the 430. Its shoulder plates are currently weak against 120+ caliber shells. But with these changes will the shoulder plates become effectively auto bounce for many tanks that aren't looking directly downward on it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, rojo180 said:

How much a buff is this to the 430. Its shoulder plates are currently weak against 120+ caliber shells. But with these changes will the shoulder plates become effectively auto bounce for many tanks that aren't looking directly downward on it. 

 

Well, they're angled at 80 degrees, and 3x overmatch apparently results in autobounce at 76 degrees, so they're immune in most situations. But TBH they are a pretty small portion of the frontal silhouette so it's not a major buff.

GA5XXrC.png

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/10/2016 at 11:53 AM, MacusFlash said:

I'd like to see real life overmatch implemented into WoT. http://ruhrpottpatriot.tumblr.com/post/73235077911/crash-course-tanks-overmatching-and-why-some

 

 

That was quite interesting to read. Thanks for the link!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/11/2016 at 6:02 AM, Jaegaer said:

And exactly that will not happen because these guys will jump into their heavys, be mostly invulnerable UNTIL up close and then duke it out.

Yes, that will happen because they will jump into their heavys and spend the next 10 minutes bouncing off the enemy heavys (and get frustrated even loding skill will not allow them to pen the enemy).

On 11/11/2016 at 6:02 AM, Jaegaer said:

Today the reds get slaughtered driving anywhere and after they finally arrived they can't do much either because they never learned to press the "skill" key (or are too cheap). So they play arty and TD and kemp the few remaining bushes while enjoying the highest base pen and alpha in game. Fun and engaging...

And this is what they will do once they bonced 600000 of the enemy heavys, exactly what has happened before, the reason why there;s a hard arty limit. So WG is literally taking the game 2 years ago (or more) and at the same time ruining the few things the game had going for it at that time like vision control (which i've heavily critized in the past but now seeing the alternative i apreciate it).I guess they really need to push the p2w aspect (spend real money dollars in this 20 tanks, and then start thinking about skill).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...