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Tier X Light tanks

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47 minutes ago, stagnate said:

I don't understand the talk about buffs to existing tanks.  Light tanks are already effectively +1 tier with one caveat (Sh/Cw usage) so changing a t37 from tier 6+3 to tier 7+2 is status quo.  If the wz goes from tier8 (effective 9) to tier 8 effective that may have some nerfs, but not the other changes.

 

Thereis a separate question about balancing or changing their role, but that is not necessarily required to simply introduce them, with the exception of tier 10 LT which don't exist currently

One argument is MM weight. If you play a tier 8 light today, you 'cost' the team 48 points in the MM (tier 8 base + 20% load for lights). Currently the base for a tier 9 is 60 points and most classes have an additional 20% load, so if all they did was move the tier 8 lights to tier 9 then their MM weight would be 72. So now (in your tier 9 light) you 'cost' the team 72 points.

As a result, your 'value' to the team has to go up by a factor of 72/48 ie a 50% increase in capability needed for tier 8 -> tier 9. That would require a HP increase for sure, probably some gun buffs too - else who would play a light at tier 9 rather than <insert any tier 9 medium>...?

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On 5/1/2017 at 4:16 PM, tajj7 said:

It's interesting, it raises some questions/ideas/thoughts -

- What happens with the premium lights? Do they move tiers or become extremely strong in their own tiers cos WG can't nerf them, M41 GF owners will be pissed in particular if they can't use their tanks in tier 8 SHS.

- So lights get moved to their own tiers (or some don't it seems from what they've said from the Chinese line), are they going to rebalance them, i.e. buff them cos moving them to the tiers they already play won't change much. A 1390 is currently a crap Bat Chat 25T AP, moving it to tier 9 won't change that.

- I hope we don't see a mass medium nerf, that will be a nerf to several tanks that don't warrant one (like Leo 1, Cent 1, Fatton, Cent AX etc,). The only tier 9 and 10 meds that realistically can scout are Bat Chats and Russian hovermeds, everything else really lacks the camo. A slight nerf to their view range would be fine (say BC and T-62a/140 to 390), but a Fatton is a Fatton it's huge with no camo and goes 45kph, it's 420 view range will not threaten tier 10 lights.

- I like their idea of greater view range (I hope these won't mean mass view range nerfs because relying on the potato on your team for vision will just be a pain, oh he's yolo suicided, GG, enemy team wins). However, they all need to be closer to the 440m they have given the German one, tier 10 ones with 410m seems pointless, tier 10 lights should be 430-440 (maybe 450), tier 9 should be 420 - 430, the tier 8s 400 - 410.

- I'd like to see WOWs style special consumables (and extra slots for these, also all consumables on a cool down is a good idea for med kits, repair kits etc.) and I think re-worked lights would be great to try this. Two that obviously spring to mind are on WOWs destroyers, smoke and speed boost.  

Smoke is pretty obvious, a smoke canister that covers a certain area (say 5 seconds of smoke 'puffs', smoke last for about a minute or so) that blocks spotting concealment, potential for self defence for the light (have it fire all round the tank say) or for saving under fire teammates, say that friendly heavy has over extended, you pop smoke on him, he can pull back, get some sort of XP bonus for it.  

Speed boost would be basically fuel on steroids, say a 25% boost to hp/ton, top speed and traverse rate for 30 seconds (then cool down period before reuse), so again lights could get out of dodge or could did an insane circle of lone enemy. Basically the ability to turn your light into a T-50-2 for 30 seconds.  An RU on current stats, would jump up to 100 kph top speed, 31 hp.ton and 55 deg/s traverse rate. 

They could then develop other options for more unique skills for different tanks, but I reckon those two, along with view range buffs could buff all lights without needing to fiddle with their other stats too much if they just moved to their tier they currently get MM for. 

So again using the RU, it goes to tier 9, gets 420m view range and gets the reusable smoke and speed boost abilities. 

 

 

They could give them the consumable to crap Yoshi eggs and it will make them still crap. In Wot count 2 things: gun and hp/armor. Mobility comes  in play only as a factor that allows you to bring your gun into the game. This is why the t95 is shit (plus the lack of a turret) while tanks like the Maus are still viable even if they are only a little bit faster, since it has huge hp and armor that can bounce gold. This is also why the E100 is better than the Maus because it has a better gun. Furthermore if you think about it, a E100 goes half the speed a LT does and a Maus goes less than a 3rd, but still they are tanks that can carry the game. 

Now let's think of which Lights are good: ofc Bulldog and t37. Why are they good even though the t37 is a bit sluggish and has low camo for a LT? Because it has a great gun, with fantastic gun handling and great dpm with more health than the other LTs. This makes (imo) it the best tier 6, better than the Cromwell with its ebola gun handling.

What do we see from this preview from WG? That they have shit hp and meh gun handling with crap traverse and meh mobility compared to a Bat. This means that they are crap.

Oh and I hope that WG doesnt think that moving a LT to tier 9 with no buff, but keeping them with the same MM is a buff, because well they already have similar MM.

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Cliff, trying to reach hill in M41 GF from north. Nope, fucking medium tank bat chat is first. What's the point of light tank when a tank with bigger HP pool, greater firepower and even mobility exists?

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given that i'm currently grinding through my light tanks (spic,t49,1390 atm)

fucking bat chat!

oh and fucking grille!!! i go with my spic to take early spot, grille already there waiting for me, had a cup of coffee, smoked a cigarette and put 750 in my sorry ass

 

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They could really just leave most lights as they are, and give them normal matchmaking. They would not be too good, for a huge majority of players being top tier IS-3 is still a lot better than being a top tier light tank. Only problem would be that MM would need to balance tank types maybe a bit better, Ensk with other side heavies as top tier and other side lights is not going to end well...Also, I don't really see the point of T9 and T10 light tanks. Instead I would like to see change to SH/CW lineups similar to current esports format, so that you have to take a few lower tier tanks also. That way light tanks would see use, at the moment even if they are slightly better in the light tank-stuff than mediums, they obviously sacrifice way too much in hit point and firepower that anyone would use them if you can pick T10. In addition a slight nerf to some T10 mediums mobility might not be bad thing, especially for BC.

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8 hours ago, HS5 said:

They could really just leave most lights as they are, and give them normal matchmaking. They would not be too good, for a huge majority of players being top tier IS-3 is still a lot better than being a top tier light tank. Only problem would be that MM would need to balance tank types maybe a bit better, Ensk with other side heavies as top tier and other side lights is not going to end well...Also, I don't really see the point of T9 and T10 light tanks. Instead I would like to see change to SH/CW lineups similar to current esports format, so that you have to take a few lower tier tanks also. That way light tanks would see use, at the moment even if they are slightly better in the light tank-stuff than mediums, they obviously sacrifice way too much in hit point and firepower that anyone would use them if you can pick T10. In addition a slight nerf to some T10 mediums mobility might not be bad thing, especially for BC.

Then you would have to nerf tanks like the Bulldog since they would almost murder the living shit of tier 7s. Lts are better than their medium counterparts at the same tier and by far.

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Well Bulldog and T37 are only ones I can think right now that would be a bit too good for their tier. And still, if you get city map I would rather be top tier in Tiger or KV-3 or something like that than Bulldog. You have to remember that the majority of players are really bad with lights, if top 0.1 % would have advantage I don't really see that as a problem. At T8, yes lights would be a bit better than mediums, but so what? Then again at T9 and T10 mediums are way superior to pretty much everything. And to be honest a good T8 medium like Pershing or M46 KR is most of the time still more useful than a light for the majority of players. 

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On 7.01.2017 at 11:42 AM, volim_velike_sise said:

given that i'm currently grinding through my light tanks (spic,t49,1390 atm)

fucking bat chat!

oh and fucking grille!!! i go with my spic to take early spot, grille already there waiting for me, had a cup of coffee, smoked a cigarette and put 750 in my sorry ass

 

That's more a problem with SPIC being shit slow than Grille being fast. Unless there is only hard ground to the early spot grille will be going 41-42kph to it.

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9 hours ago, hazzgar said:

Przechwytywanie.PNG

Above screenshot shows it all, and that is excluding the ghetto turning speed of grille 24 vs 44, and all scouts also have stock engines and stock tracks, meaning the numbers above dont tell the whole story (they are actually faster....)

Grille is medium tank fast, not T54 or cromwell, but some joe average medium tank fast, grille also gets tard bloom, making any kind of moving and shooting 100% impossible

ps: and its still a 1800 hp paper tank, with limited turret traverse and underwhelming camo

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17 hours ago, Gryphon_ said:

The speed of TDs (and some arties) in this game is just stupid. Play a FV4202 and watch the TDs accelerating off into the distance....

WG even aknowledged that the class monikers in this game have mostly lost their meaning. TDs and HTs that are faster than some MTs. MTs with better armor than some HTs.

With the Grille it's especially cheesy. IKNOW that the Grile is not OP or even good - it's just annoying that you can no longer take the balcony on Airfield in your T49if a Grille is in the enemy team bc if the spawns are not perfect for you, the Grille can be in position halfway aimed in and blap you for 750 35 secs into the game...

That weakend I got weak (hence the name) and played WoT agan (for the swedish girls) and we had already lost TWO tier X heavies on Mountain Pass 50 secs into the game...

About the tier X LTs (to actually contribut to the topic...)  - agan WG is riding a razor thin line here. Especially with the AMX 13 whatnot compared to the Bat Chat... LTs simply need other things to go for them than camo on the move. But as it stands we will get MTs that are very slightly more mobile while being very slightly more squishy... how exciting...

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Was thinking about what you'd have to do to existing in game tanks to turn them into viable high tier lights

If they recategorised the Batchat and Bat 25p as lights, that would be a good start. No changes needed there. 

The Leo and Leo PTA are mediums with no armor, boss guns, and lots of speed, so they have some attributes of light tanks. Rejigging the crew skills so the loader had the radio would help pimp up the view range with recon and SA; increase base view range a touch; and give the PTA some more acceleration (its fast but accel isnt great). With those changes, they could be better as lights than than they currently are as mediums.

 

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On 07/01/2017 at 9:15 PM, nabucodonsor said:

Then you would have to nerf tanks like the Bulldog since they would almost murder the living shit of tier 7s. Lts are better than their medium counterparts at the same tier and by far.

That would be more to do with how crap tier 7 and 8 mediums are.

Look at tier 6 skirms, lights are fine there against Cromwells and T-34-85s in the main.  Cos tier 6 meds generally are very good, Cromwell, T-34-85, A-43, Skoda T25, Jumbo, new Swedish thing even Easy8 is pretty nice despite it's crappy pen cos it;s got good DPM, good gun handling and -12 gun depression. 

It's why I never get the moans about the Bulldog, sure it's one of the best lights, but that isn't really saying much and the tier 7 lights only really compete well because tier 8 mediums in general are pure shit, Centurion 1, Panther 2, Indien, T-34-2 etc. You have a collection of tier 8 meds that have less pen than the heavies, way less alpha and still only get around 1,8-1.9k DPM on average barely anymore than an IS3 which has 225 pen and 390 alpha. Then most of them go around 45kph ish so hardly fast, with no real impressive hp/tons there or agility, like a Pershing which is one of the better ones has 38 deg/s traverse rate. Plus most of them are huge as well.

It's basically Pershing cos it has a turret, 416 competes despite it's awkward depression and turret because of the tier 9 DPM and alpha, then STA-2 is probably one of the best of the rest. Tier 7 and 8 meds are thoroughly underwhelming, way behind the heavies on their tiers and on tier 8 behind most of the TDs as well. 

It's why the tier 6 and 7 lights look good especially when they get decent MM, because they are really better mediums with in most cases less HP.  It's the tier 8 lights that struggle because most the tier 9 mediums are much better than them, particularly gun wise, medium guns at tier 9 take a big leap up, lots of 105s doing 390 alpha with over 2.5k base DPM, whereas most the tier 8 lights are using the same crappy 240 ish alpha guns the tier 8 mediums use, which do not scale well at all into tier 9 and 10. 

You could drop the lights to their tier if they buffed some of the crappy meds on those tiers, a good percentage of the tier 7 and 8 meds need buffs IMO, the tier 8 meds should with their poor alpha be more in the range of 2.3 to 2.5k DPM with 90mms and the like, not 7 second reloads for 240 alpha, when tanks just one tier above you have 7 second reloads for 390. 

The other thing they need to do is restrict lights in the MM, their shouldn't be like 4-5 in each team it's silly, especially when you have two tier gaps between them, tier 6 lights shouldn't be in the game with tier 8 ones when they are all competing with the same spots, MM should be more restrictive on light tanks and match them like arty. 

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On 1/7/2017 at 1:35 PM, HS5 said:

And to be honest a good T8 medium like Pershing or M46 KR is most of the time still more useful than a light for the majority of players. 

I could not possibly agree more, taking myself as an example of an (probably somewhat below) average player.  I'm grinding the SP I C simply because the RU looks like it will be amazeballs amounts of fun to drive (please WG don't nerf the speed...).  But taking the G5 hill on Sand River with a murican vision-control medium lets you get all of the spotting glory while still having a chance of bouncing the occasional shot and maybe even doing some damage.  I basically think of the two named above (along with the t44) plus the t20 as lights/scouts in all but name, and I play them accordingly generally.

I see that pretty much every poster in this thread so far has stats that dwarf my own, but speaking personally, the idea of tier 10 scouts/lights...doesn't interest me that much, because yeah, I'll gimp my team by playing them, and they really don't look all that enjoyable in their currently projected configurations.

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In the current state of the game t10 lights make no sense because as has been said above, every med from t9 and up and do lights job, but way better (armor and gun). So unless med view gets nerfed, the 10 scouts (even without considering the map situation) are going to be gimped meds. Camo on the move will not be the saving grace.

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32 minutes ago, Vesirott said:

In the current state of the game t10 lights make no sense because as has been said above, every med from t9 and up and do lights job, but way better (armor and gun). So unless med view gets nerfed, the 10 scouts (even without considering the map situation) are going to be gimped meds. Camo on the move will not be the saving grace.

If they get amazeballs dispersion like the t7 us light (t92lt? dont remember) then it might make sense. 

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38 minutes ago, hazzgar said:

If they get amazeballs dispersion like the t7 us light (t92lt? dont remember) then it might make sense. 

I personally do not think firing parameters will make them viable. Even with 0 dispersion (ie hitting every shot while on the move or turning the turret) you are still armorless, alphaless, visible xp pinata. If driving physics were usable then you might make scouts ultra fast (active scouting, hard to target). I managed to flip the T7 swedist TD over a minor bump on sacred valley. I stared at the tank in disbelief the whole 30seconds it took to detonate. How.the.fuck?

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1 hour ago, Vesirott said:

I personally do not think firing parameters will make them viable. Even with 0 dispersion (ie hitting every shot while on the move or turning the turret) you are still armorless, alphaless, visible xp pinata. If driving physics were usable then you might make scouts ultra fast (active scouting, hard to target). I managed to flip the T7 swedist TD over a minor bump on sacred valley. I stared at the tank in disbelief the whole 30seconds it took to detonate. How.the.fuck?

Not really. Being able to minimise exposure is a very important feature that increases survivability. This is the reason why people love the m46 patton or the fv215b. Especially the 2nd one is very liked here despite having a horrible platform (though the turret is good) 

Also look at the Swedish t6 med. Super gun stats + depression and you can live even with huge size, meh speed. 

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I think the point WG is making, is they're no longer considered scouts. Light tanks are just mediums that move faster at the sacrifice of HP and armor. If you dont dig that kind of gameplay, then you're right, there is no reason for you to play these tier 9s and 10s.

If you're the guy that prefers optics to binocs, and smooth ride/snapshot over camo, then these are more likely your tanks. 

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4 minutes ago, RunninKurt said:

I think the point WG is making, is they're no longer considered scouts. Light tanks are just mediums that move faster at the sacrifice of HP and armor. If you dont dig that kind of gameplay, then you're right, there is no reason for you to play these tier 9s and 10s.

If you're the guy that prefers optics to binocs, and smooth ride/snapshot over camo, then these are more likely your tanks. 

That's the difference between a MT and a TD not betwen an LT and MT. 

Also the speed difference between some meds and lights is not really that big when you have leos, bat chats and hovermeds.

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2 hours ago, hazzgar said:

Not really. Being able to minimise exposure is a very important feature that increases survivability. This is the reason why people love the m46 patton or the fv215b. Especially the 2nd one is very liked here despite having a horrible platform (though the turret is good) 

Also look at the Swedish t6 med. Super gun stats + depression and you can live even with huge size, meh speed. 

You do have a point, but swedish med has massive depression. How would you minimize exposure with wz or ltw? If it becomes beekaboo match, then once again - no alpha, no armor, no pen. Maybe if you take it to the xtreme...I dont know, I just cant see it happening. You peek once over the hill or from the corner for 240 and then next time even with minmal exposure time you get annihilated for 500 because of the improved spotting delay (or lack thereof).

Still I admit I could be wrong. Lights have been non scouts for a long time and I understand that, I run my T71 and blackdog with dpm gear. The reason why I brought scouting is was that proposed high tier meds have 420 view range which on paper is an advantage, but in reality not really.

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17 minutes ago, Vesirott said:

You do have a point, but swedish med has massive depression. How would you minimize exposure with wz or ltw? If it becomes beekaboo match, then once again - no alpha, no armor, no pen. Maybe if you take it to the xtreme...I dont know, I just cant see it happening. You peek once over the hill or from the corner for 240 and then next time even with minmal exposure time you get annihilated for 500 because of the improved spotting delay (or lack thereof).

Still I admit I could be wrong. Lights have been non scouts for a long time and I understand that, I run my T71 and blackdog with dpm gear. The reason why I brought scouting is was that proposed high tier meds have 420 view range which on paper is an advantage, but in reality not really.

You do realize I have also pointed to the fv215b which has ok depression at best? Also RU meds? People love them and their great dispersion is part of it. 

Also if you idea of good play is peaking against gun aimed at you then it's not a tanks problem but a player problem. 

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