Loader Safe Stowage Skill

[ThomChen114 291]

For tanks with more than 1 loader, like the M103, would it be beneficial to have both loaders to have the "safe stowage" skill? The description reads that the skill was not cumulative. But what if one of the loaders, who has the safe stowage perk, gets injured in the course of the battle? 

[Inciatus 1,124]

No.

Safe Stowage is really only effective at helping to prevent one shot ammo-rack detonations. Rexxie or someone did some experiments with this and safe stowage's effect is pretty minimal for tanks which are not frequently affected by one shot ammo rack detonations due to the threshold for when an ammo rack becomes damaged it would really only let it absorb a shot from something like a 75mm gun (any larger and it'll get damaged anyway, any smaller it wouldnt affect it the first shot and will the second etc). It is probably still worthwhile to have the one loader with it though even that is questionable especially compared to the common four skills available to them.

[neokai 116]

4 hours ago, Inciatus said:

It is probably still worthwhile to have the one loader with it though even that is questionable especially compared to the common four skills available to them.

 

By that you mean BiA, camo, repairs and firefighting? You would pick firefighting over safe stowage? May I ask why?

[Inciatus 1,124]

Just now, neokai said:

By that you mean BiA, camo, repairs and firefighting? You would pick firefighting over safe stowage? May I ask why?

The M103 will lose its Ammo rack to pretty much anything larger than a 75 but I never had an issue with full health ammo racks. But with firefighting you can either run good or double up on repair kits to fix your ammo rack. The increase to health of the ammorack won't actually give you enough module health to avoid getting ammoracked by 90s and higher though it'll probably stop the first shot from a t71 or bulldog or something. Also by the time you get firefighting you're probably in your fourth skill and a full firefighting crew will reduce burn time by half to 1/4hp rather than 1/2.

[IanSanJR 184]

safe stowage apply only 1 loader.  you cannot apply for 2 loaders it will not effective. I tried from long time ago when new skills perk is release.

[GehakteMolen 2,063]

13 hours ago, Inciatus said:

The M103 will lose its Ammo rack to pretty much anything larger than a 75 but I never had an issue with full health ammo racks. But with firefighting you can either run good or double up on repair kits to fix your ammo rack. The increase to health of the ammorack won't actually give you enough module health to avoid getting ammoracked by 90s and higher though it'll probably stop the first shot from a t71 or bulldog or something. Also by the time you get firefighting you're probably in your fourth skill and a full firefighting crew will reduce burn time by half to 1/4hp rather than 1/2.

Module dmg is also 25% RNG, so there is not fixed line where a 75mm wont break it and a 90mm will

Rough guide on module dmg / caliber:

• 75 mm   100
• 76 mm   105
• 88 mm   119
• 90 mm   122
• 100 mm  135
• 105 mm  150
• 122 mm  165
• 128 mm  180
• 130 mm  180
• 152 mm  203
• 155 mm  210
• 173 mm  228

Since its +/-25% a 75mm can deal as high as 125, while a 122mm can deal as low as 123 (or as high as 206, aka, equal to 152mm)

an M103(m103 has 260) tank with 230 ammorack hp (cant find it back so fast) so only guns which deal atleast 170 module damage can ammorack it (with a (very) high dmg roll, aka +128 mm guns, if you get hit by an small gun before though, it might turn yellow (115 dmg is needed to make it yellow, which is nothing), and once yellow, it will always stay below 115, which makes it very prone to detonation, even a 90mm gun has more as 50% chance to break your ammo.... (it it indeed has 230 hp)

It also shows why both safe stowage and dead eye are better as they at first seemd, since the margins are all small, 3% more module dmg doesnt sound much, but it makes the T30 go from 210 to 216, which ALSO means the bare minimum goes up, from 157.5 to 162, so my T30 can 100% ammorack any tank with 160 ammorack hp, while a T30 without safe stowage cant (most t7 / t8 tanks have around 160-180 hitpoints on ammorack afaik)

Safe stowage, which gives a 7.5% bonus, works much better though, since it both moves the chance to become yellow AND the chance to get one shot, especially for high tiers, the chance to get one shot, when you have safe stowage drops to zero, or becomes actually zero a E5 has 260 hp (quick google) with safe stowage that is 292, so even a Jp-E100, with max module dmg roll, wont one shot you.

For M103, with 230, it goes to 258, so from ~30% chance to get one shot by T30 / 704, to very rare (258 hp vs 262 max dmg

TL:DR: safe stowage is a much better skill as people give credit, and is a must on any tank with 2 loaders / tanks on which you cont run camo or bia

[nemlengyel 848]

@GehakteMolen according to http://tanks.gg/wot/tank/m103 m103 has 260 ammorack hitpoints

Thanks for the detailed post though, I always wondered about the usefulness of deadeye (only used to have it for matilda before I sold it)

[GehakteMolen 2,063]

1 hour ago, nemlengyel said:

@GehakteMolen according to http://tanks.gg/wot/tank/m103 m103 has 260 ammorack hitpoints

Thanks for the detailed post though, I always wondered about the usefulness of deadeye (only used to have it for matilda before I sold it)

Ah, there it stands, i was looking on wot-news, and there it wasnt listed (all others, like gnein hp where, but nto ammo...)

[MacusFlash 2,270]

2 hours ago, GehakteMolen said:

It also shows why both safe stowage and dead eye are better as they at first seemd, since the margins are all small, 3% more module dmg doesnt sound much, but it makes the T30 go from 210 to 216, which ALSO means the bare minimum goes up, from 157.5 to 162, so my T30 can 100% ammorack any tank with 160 ammorack hp, while a T30 without safe stowage cant (most t7 / t8 tanks have around 160-180 hitpoints on ammorack afaik)

Deadeye increases a chance to hit a module, not dmg.

[nabucodonsor 461]

Problem is that reapairs camo and bia are better on the loader. Safe stowage is an ok skill but I find more beneficial having those on my tanks bar heavies. Also it depends on the ammorack health meaning that it is beneficial depending on what kind of guns you encounter and how much health you have. So its usage relies a lot on the tank itself. The "good" thing though is that loaders have shit skills/perks meaning it is easier to fit than for example deadeye, in particular on heavies since they dont use camo.

 

Deadeye instead is much harder to fit since gunners find more beneficial having repair camo bia and snapshot. And frankly i'd rather have armorer.

[Stige 103]

Safe Stowage is useless at anything but low tier tanks mostly.

[GehakteMolen 2,063]

5 hours ago, nabucodonsor said:

Problem is that reapairs camo and bia are better on the loader. Safe stowage is an ok skill but I find more beneficial having those on my tanks bar heavies. Also it depends on the ammorack health meaning that it is beneficial depending on what kind of guns you encounter and how much health you have. So its usage relies a lot on the tank itself. The "good" thing though is that loaders have shit skills/perks meaning it is easier to fit than for example deadeye, in particular on heavies since they dont use camo.

 

Deadeye instead is much harder to fit since gunners find more beneficial having repair camo bia and snapshot. And frankly i'd rather have armorer.

Safe stowage is an easy fit, see my T30 crew for example:

If i would retrain for bia, i would loose the viewrange skill on commander, dead eye on gunner, a mobility perk on driver and a ton of camo on the last 3 (or drop safe stowage for camo)

So instead of bia, i keep my crew this way, it does make room for safe stowage (and intuition) (with 410m viewrange and 14,7 camo / 8,8 when moving im not entirely cripled on maps like prok or campinovka, especially for low tiers i will have enough camo / viewrange to outspot anyone shooting (and shoot them back for 750)

But i almost always pick safe stowage as 3e skill (or 2e, if i plan on retraining for bia / ammo rack problem prone tank) since tanks on which i need so much camo, i dont use bia, and on tanks where bia is really needed, camo is often less of a problem (and im slowly getting more and more 4e skill crews in all tier 8/9/10 tanks, which makes it less of a problem aswell)

4 hours ago, Stige said:

Safe Stowage is useless at anything but low tier tanks mostly.

It isnt, how often it helps is hard to say, but the same aplies to any screw skill except for repair and camo, bia = vent = everyone always said ``so little diff doesnt matter``

Intuition Adrenaline rush is imo also a very usefull skill, not for 1e or 2e, but if you have room to spare? 10% dpm boost is a lot + people dont expect it, (fucking mod ofc ruins this effect since ppl can see reload speed, but still)

[nemlengyel 848]

My 2 cents are that since this is World of RNGesus, anything that brings even a minuscule chance to swing this ubiquitous rng in your favor is worth it.

[stagnate 513]

1 hour ago, GehakteMolen said:

Intuition is imo also a very usefull skill, not for 1e or 2e, but if you have room to spare? 10% dpm boost is a lot + people dont expect it, (fucking mod ofc ruins this effect since ppl can see reload speed, but still)

You mean adrenaline rush, 10% skill bump when under 10% hp I believe.

 

intuition gives you a no-cost shell change some of the time, but you have to risk a full reload for it to trigger.

[nemlengyel 848]

8 minutes ago, stagnate said:

You mean adrenaline rush, 10% skill bump when under 10% hp I believe.

 

intuition gives you a no-cost shell change some of the time, but you have to risk a full reload for it to trigger.

yup, intuition has a chance to save your ass when some big-ass tank is coming your way and you need to load gold, plus it's cumulative with multiple loaders

[GehakteMolen 2,063]

2 hours ago, stagnate said:

You mean adrenaline rush, 10% skill bump when under 10% hp I believe.

 

intuition gives you a no-cost shell change some of the time, but you have to risk a full reload for it to trigger.

ur right, i ment adrenaline rush

[Stige 103]

@GehakteMolen There is a thread somewhere around here with plenty of proof how useless Safe Stowage is, it doesn't help at all on a T8+ tanks unless the gun that is shooting you is like 75mm or something, which doesn't even exist at high tiers or chance of getting shot at by one is next to none, so Safe Stowage is useless.

If it protects against one shot ammo racks better, great, but those are so frickin super rare even when playing 113 that it is still just a useless skill.

[MacusFlash 2,270]

47 minutes ago, Stige said:

@GehakteMolen There is a thread somewhere around here with plenty of proof how useless Safe Stowage is, it doesn't help at all on a T8+ tanks unless the gun that is shooting you is like 75mm or something, which doesn't even exist at high tiers or chance of getting shot at by one is next to none, so Safe Stowage is useless.

If it protects against one shot ammo racks better, great, but those are so frickin super rare even when playing 113 that it is still just a useless skill.

Do you mean this? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ta1rv86Xhd5VrxJdGN4iP7pT4dgJvyT3UHUlvPUdBkY/edit?usp=sharing

[Stige 103]

2 minutes ago, MacusFlash said:

Do you mean this? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ta1rv86Xhd5VrxJdGN4iP7pT4dgJvyT3UHUlvPUdBkY/edit?usp=sharing

So on 113, Safe Stowage only helps against against 75-77mm guns really. Which never even shoot the tank. No blowup for 180-183mm guns if you have Safe Stowage.
On IS-3 it only helps against 50-57mm guns, again guns that you won't even see. And you won't blow up by a 150-155mm if you have Safe Stowage

So yeah, kinda useless if you ask me?

[Errants 425]

41 minutes ago, MacusFlash said:

Do you mean this? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ta1rv86Xhd5VrxJdGN4iP7pT4dgJvyT3UHUlvPUdBkY/edit?usp=sharing

So, basically, any benefit I've seen from training SS first on my loaders is perception only?  And I'd be better benefited from BiA/Camo/Repairs/AR/Int/FireFighting before I went SS?

Enlightening, seems similar to choosing Preventative Maintenance on a Driver... looks great, but is ultimately eclipsed by everything else in utility and actual effect?

Is Deadeye also as crap?  I thought it was a straight additive chance to a module being damaged... e.g. 20% became 23%...

[MacusFlash 2,270]

1 minute ago, Errants said:

Is Deadeye also as crap?  I thought it was a straight additive chance to a module being damaged... e.g. 20% became 23%...

On rapid firing guns it is useful.

[Errants 425]

1 minute ago, MacusFlash said:

On rapid firing guns it is useful.

What RoF threshold should I be looking at?  E.g. Clearly it is of benefit on the Matilda, and I'd assume nigh worthless on my T110E4/T30.

But does caliber have anything to do with it?  As in is it viable on my T95E6, but not my T34? (both 120's, no, I'm not dumb enough to have devoted crews for them, just the first ones that sprang to mind as same caliber, but vastly different RoF's)

[MacusFlash 2,270]

It's about statistics - you have to fire a lot to give this extra 3% a chance to work. So almost every gun on mid and high tier medium and light tank will make use of this perk. The best examples are Russian MBTs and autoloaders. Also IX-X tier 120mm guns are fine.

[GehakteMolen 2,063]

11 hours ago, Stige said:

So on 113, Safe Stowage only helps against against 75-77mm guns really. Which never even shoot the tank. No blowup for 180-183mm guns if you have Safe Stowage.
On IS-3 it only helps against 50-57mm guns, again guns that you won't even see. And you won't blow up by a 150-155mm if you have Safe Stowage

So yeah, kinda useless if you ask me?

Uh, dont know how you read that table / understand ammo rack damage (nobody seems to understand it, it seems) but ammorack is totally seperated...

• Every tank has ammorack hp, and this is different for each tank (tier 9 tanks have 200, 210, 240 or 260)
• Every caliber deals a different kind of module damage
• its wot, so 25% RNG applies

Easiest example: a 155mm gun deals 210 module dmg, that means a tank with a 210 hp ammorack has 50% chance get destroyed (50%, not 100%!!!! since the damage will roll between 157,5 and 262,5) with safe stowage your ammorack hp goes to 236, which reduces the change of detonation to 15% (assuming WG usses a gaussian distribution with a variance of 2)

(and yes thats calculated, since i have a gaussian distribution sheet in excel)

I dont care if people want to use shitty equipment or pointless crew skills, but safe stowage is 100% a must, ESPECIALLY on high tier tanks...

ps: for dead eye, the math is 50% with 210 dmg / 210 hp, dead eye buffs chance to hit module with 3%, so it goes from:

(assuming 30% hitchance on ammorack)

• 0.3*0.5 = 15% dead
• 0.3*0.5 = 15% broken
• 70% = nothing

While with dead eye, it goes to:

• 0.33*0.5 = 16.5% dead
• 0.33*0.5 = 16.5% broken
• 67% = nothing

ps: when shooting at an m103, with 260 ammorack hp, the following:

• 210 vs 260 = 1% 
• 210 vs 292 = 0% (with ss)

when shooting E50 (220 hp)

• 210 vs 220 = 34%
• 210 vs 247 = 6% (with ss)

On E50, the chance goes from 34% to 6% when fighting T30, thats massive....

The ONLY way the above is wrong, is if WG is nto using gaussian distribution, with sigma 2, which they DO use for everything else:

http://worldoftanks.com/en/news/pc-browser/19/some-changes-coming-86-update/

Currently, in Version 8.5, we have a 1.3 sigma set as a limit. This means that approximately 19.4% of shots will land at the edge of the aiming circle. There were good reasons which this limit was chosen back in 2010, but the game has developed since then and we are ready to move on.

For the 8.6 Update, we have decided to change the distribution model used for accuracy calculations, by increasing the limit to 2-sigma. This means that now only 4.6% of shots will land at the edge of the aiming circle. That’s nearly 4 times less than under the old model!

edit: that table is also crap:

a 75mm gun deals between 75 and 125 dmg, a rack turns yellow at 105 (50% afaik) yet in that table its listed as ``always``, but thats nonsens, it would be like: my T110 deals 400 dmg, so i will 100% kill that 400 hp tank... (its 50/50...)

[MacusFlash 2,270]

@GehakteMolen Perk Deadeye does NOT increase module dmg.

The Deadeye Perk enables the Gunner to increase, by a fixed amount of 3%, the chance that a shot will critically damage enemy vehicle modules and crew with AP, APCR, or HEAT shells. It does not work with HE shells. If two Gunners on the vehicle have the Perk, the effect is not cumulative.