striker1424

Emil I vs Emil II - Which do you prefer?

46 posts in this topic

Hi everybody! This is my first topic ever on this forum (yay), and it is a bit of a weird one. Or at least I think it might be weird.

With the new Swedish tank lines that came out recently, I decided to go up the heavy route over the TD route since I like brawl gameplay and having also found a love for autoloaders with the Batchat 25t and The M41 Bulldog. So I went up the heavy route blind and got to tier 8 - the Emil I. This tank is probably the absolute best tank I have ever played. The strong turret armour combined with the -12 gun depression made it amazing in top tier games, and I was able to carry even tier 10 games using the pretty nice autoloading 105mm that the tank gets. The aiming time was a bit potato, but I managed to solve that by getting up-close and personal unless I knew that I would get destroyed. This worked out most of the time and I was even able to meet the requirements for the ace tanker - on a defeat! (See this link: Emil I ace tanker) My stats in the tank (quite interestingly I don't bounce a lot):
Emil III.PNG

Now, after about 120 games in this tank I was able to get more than enough xp for the Emil II. Since the Emil II is pretty much an upgrade in all aspects you would expect similar things to what the Emil I was capable of. It has stronger turret armour, it has more penetration, it has more alpha damage (and therefore clip potential) and has more side armour, though it suffers from less frontal armour. For me, this tank is much worse. It was like changing from the 50 100 to the 50 120 - it felt like a downgrade, probably because I feel more comfortable at tier 8 than tier 9 in heavy tanks. Admittedly I haven't played as many games in it, but with the Emil I felt right at home from the first game I played. The tank is really good, I'm just not as good as I'd like to be in it. It is a fun tank to play and I bounce a lot of damage with the turret (yesterday I bounced Jg.Pz.E100 heat lol) but the gun doesn't hit or pen a lot of the time from my experience. Here are my stats (so far) in the tank (again, I don't bounce a lot but I do use the turret all the time):Emil II.PNG

So basically I'd say I prefer the Emil I over the Emil II and my performance probably reflects that. Just curious as to what you guys think of the tanks, they are amazing, perhaps even imbalanced, but which one is better tier for tier?

Cheers!

P.S Feel free to post stats like I did. I'd love to see other people's comparison in stats between the two!

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How have you found the transition from tier 8 to 9 in other lines? Or to put it another way, it could just be the exposure to different metas / ability sets.

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Not sure about this but I thought that only the kranvagn can bounce JPE 420 heat, based on personal experience 420 HEAT can blaze through both emil turrets like knife through butter.. 

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10 minutes ago, Pinkerson said:

Not sure about this but I thought that only the kranvagn can bounce JPE 420 heat, based on personal experience 420 HEAT can blaze through both emil turrets like knife through butter.. 

On flat ground the Emil II's and Kranvagns turret is only 370mm effective and fully depressed it's 450mm max. I suppose it's matter of depression angle and RNG on penetration...

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3 hours ago, BPX said:

Play more games in the Emil II.  29 games is too small a number to tell you anything about your performance in a tank.

I will update as i play more, but like I said the Emil was great in my first game.

3 hours ago, Ezz said:

How have you found the transition from tier 8 to 9 in other lines? Or to put it another way, it could just be the exposure to different metas / ability sets.

Very good. Obj 416 to t54 easy and my fave tank, persh to patton amazing, tiger to e75 really good, 50 100 to 50 120 okay but i prefer the 50 100. Emil I to II is the only one aside from the 50 120 that i am struggling with. Then again im not exactly bad in the tank, just not as good as i am in the emil I. 

Also is anybody actually going to give their opinion on the topic lmao. 

1 hour ago, Pinkerson said:

Not sure about this but I thought that only the kranvagn can bounce JPE 420 heat, based on personal experience 420 HEAT can blaze through both emil turrets like knife through butter.. 

I was aiming up and he was also aiming upwards into the turret. Made an auto ricochet.

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I dont imagine too many people have gotten both the Emils yet, so there might not be many people who can talk about it. I'd rather be giving my opinion after owning both (on the Emil I), but personally I imagine the Emil II is the better tank. Probably so much better than the Kravagn isn't worth getting.

The thing with it is that the Emil II is a huge upgrade over the Emil I, fixing almost every problem with the previous tank. You go from having low pen, bad view range, sides overmatched by anything you face, a turret thwomped by virtually every T9/10 MT/HT HEAT round, turret armor that only works in one direction, and a fairly weak UFP to a tank with NONE of those problems. Your turret is invulnerable. You have no issues with pen, view range, or overmatch. Your UFP is now at autobounce, which means you can expose a HUGE amount of your tank while depressing your gun and still be safe. Stack on top of that the standard upgrades for going up a tier - better gun handling, beefier alpha, and stronger modules - and we're looking at a ridiculous upgrade. This is like going from a T-44 to the T-54. It's not even a contest.

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I power grinded through both Emils in a couple of days during the vacation, and I fully agree with Rexxie. Just the upgraded turret armor alone makes it so much better.

Currently grinding marks on the Emil I, just got my 2nd MoE in a 17 games session. Lost about 780k credits because only with food and full prem APCR it is any good. The gun handling is just so ebola, 212mm pen isnt enough, you are completely blind and the turret armor is only workable in t8 games.

Emil II was just such a relief. Being able to run optics, actually have a turret that works against any thing you meet, enough APCR pen and decent HEAT. Kranvagn was kind of a letdown after it, but I upgraded for SH/CW anyway.

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I didn't do too badly on the Emil I, but for some reason I had a horrible WR in that tank despite quite reasonable (for me) damage etc. The Emil II is a huge upgrade though. Much better at tier. Emil I really suffers vs tier 9 and 10.

Emil II has better pen, far better turret, bigger alpha/clip damage and better side armor, which sort of helps with arty. The longer reload and longer intraclip is a problem, but not that horrible. So I'll say Emil II all the way. Sold the Emil I but I think the Emil II is a keeper.

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I actually preferred emil 1 over 2 for their tiers. Sure the turret is weak against high pen guns but you are tiny and have reasonable mobility and better shaped hull for peaking over ridges. It is very easy to show the tip of the beak on emil 2 which is pretty good way of negating that turret armor. In related news the turret sides are still kinda shit and the longer reload is pretty bad as well. Finished emil 1 with 106 mostly solo games with 75% winrate, 2535dpg and 1303xp average without using any free xp. The grind was quite pleasant and the tank didn't feel weak at any stage though a lot of gold ammo was used with both guns. Emil 2 took 126 games with a lot of free xp on modules for 75% winrate, again mostly solo, 2636dpg and 1189xp. Tried to get through it without spending free xp but the stock mobility was pain in the ass and the small gun really emphasized it. As for Kranevagon, in my opinion it is a massive upgrade over emil 2.

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1 hour ago, Rexxie said:

I dont imagine too many people have gotten both the Emils yet, so there might not be many people who can talk about it. I'd rather be giving my opinion after owning both (on the Emil I), but personally I imagine the Emil II is the better tank. Probably so much better than the Kravagn isn't worth getting.

The thing with it is that the Emil II is a huge upgrade over the Emil I, fixing almost every problem with the previous tank. You go from having low pen, bad view range, sides overmatched by anything you face, a turret thwomped by virtually every T9/10 MT/HT HEAT round, turret armor that only works in one direction, and a fairly weak UFP to a tank with NONE of those problems. Your turret is invulnerable. You have no issues with pen, view range, or overmatch. Your UFP is now at autobounce, which means you can expose a HUGE amount of your tank while depressing your gun and still be safe. Stack on top of that the standard upgrades for going up a tier - better gun handling, beefier alpha, and stronger modules - and we're looking at a ridiculous upgrade. This is like going from a T-44 to the T-54. It's not even a contest.

The Front Hull armour on the Emil I is much better for the tier than the Emil II, especially since the II gets a gigantic lower plate (I am speaking from experience here). I haven't had any autobounces with my Emil II off the hull bar sidescraping, rather almost all autopens despite using a lot of gun depression, but maybe that's my bad luck or enemy skill. The gun handling is still pretty potato on the II but much better with the 0.4s decrease in aim time. The turret armour only works frontally, I really have no clue what you are on about with that, and its the same with all the heavies. The view range buff is nice but still not the greatest.

I have to agree with Daroc that the Emil I feels better at t8 than the Emil II does at t9. Then again, I need to play more games. I'll play a load tonight, will post with an update after those games.

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7 minutes ago, striker1424 said:

The Front Hull armour on the Emil I is much better for the tier than the Emil II, especially since the II gets a gigantic lower plate (I am speaking from experience here). I haven't had any autobounces with my Emil II off the hull bar sidescraping, rather almost all autopens despite using a lot of gun depression, but maybe that's my bad luck or enemy skill.

I've found the Emil I's hull to be complete garbage, penned by almost everything that'd even bother with a T8 heavy. Compare that to this:

YpUqDXb.png

And you should see why I think the 180mm UFP/LFP of the Emil I has nothing on the invulnerable UFP of the Emil II. The Emil I certainly has an easier time bullying low pen T6/7s, but has virtually no defense against T8/9/10 tanks without going hulldown. The 2/3s of the Emil II's front profile is invulnerable to enemy fire, and that's not even hulldown.

9 minutes ago, striker1424 said:

The turret armour only works frontally, I really have no clue what you are on about with that, and its the same with all the heavies..


It does only work frontally, but what I was trying to say was that you need to be looking directly at your target for the Emil I's turret to work well. The Emil II has the distinct advantage of still being a tough nut to crack even when off-angle:

3Q3tVIg.png

This is a big deal when fighting multiple tanks, unspotted tanks, or people who fire at you before you can react. Obviously both turrets are pretty trashy if you're taking hits from the side, but the Emil 1's turret effectively only works against a single target.

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17 minutes ago, Rexxie said:

I've found the Emil I's hull to be complete garbage, penned by almost everything that'd even bother with a T8 heavy. Compare that to this:

YpUqDXb.png

And you should see why I think the 180mm UFP/LFP of the Emil I has nothing on the invulnerable UFP of the Emil II. The Emil I certainly has an easier time bullying low pen T6/7s, but has virtually no defense against T8/9/10 tanks without going hulldown. The 2/3s of the Emil II's front profile is invulnerable to enemy fire, and that's not even hulldown.


It does only work frontally, but what I was trying to say was that you need to be looking directly at your target for the Emil I's turret to work well. The Emil II has the distinct advantage of still being a tough nut to crack even when off-angle:

3Q3tVIg.png

This is a big deal when fighting multiple tanks, unspotted tanks, or people who fire at you before you can react. Obviously both turrets are pretty trashy if you're taking hits from the side, but the Emil 1's turret effectively only works against a single target.

Whilst that may be true, look at that lower plate. Everybody's natural instinct is to shoot a lower plate for the most part anyway. It does allow you to poke ridges with maximum cheekiness though. Also the Emil I can angle providing the opponent shoots the front plate, whereas emil II cannot, but I'd take the turret over the front hull any day.

I can see what you mean with the turret now. I just played a few games, bounced around 3k damage in all of them from t10 grilles with the turret but got penned in the side turret by HE from said grille. The Emil II's turret is definitely a lot better.

Average damage has increased by about 200 in 2 games which is quite funny. I think after bashing the Emil II a bit it's starting to show me what it can really do! Just kidding of course, I think I'm starting to get into the tank more. The gun is proving to be a lot better than before as well. Still can't say I prefer the II over the I but it's getting close lol.

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1 hour ago, Rexxie said:

I dont imagine too many people have gotten both the Emils yet, so there might not be many people who can talk about it. I'd rather be giving my opinion after owning both (on the Emil I), but personally I imagine the Emil II is the better tank. Probably so much better than the Kravagn isn't worth getting.

The thing with it is that the Emil II is a huge upgrade over the Emil I, fixing almost every problem with the previous tank. You go from having low pen, bad view range, sides overmatched by anything you face, a turret thwomped by virtually every T9/10 MT/HT HEAT round, turret armor that only works in one direction, and a fairly weak UFP to a tank with NONE of those problems. Your turret is invulnerable. You have no issues with pen, view range, or overmatch. Your UFP is now at autobounce, which means you can expose a HUGE amount of your tank while depressing your gun and still be safe. Stack on top of that the standard upgrades for going up a tier - better gun handling, beefier alpha, and stronger modules - and we're looking at a ridiculous upgrade. This is like going from a T-44 to the T-54. It's not even a contest.

I actually enjoy Kranvagn more than i enjoyed EMIL II.

EMIL II does keep some flaws while also gains new ones: its fairly slow-ish, it has 3.33 sec intra, very slow turret traverse, very long magazine reload (its quite annoying sometimes tbh) and has crap accuracy. On Kranvagn all of those are majorly improved. Then again, clip potential isnt as good at tier 10 and pen can be quite annoying, aswell as inability to bully tier 7s does suck sometimes, but being lot more comfortable to play than EMIL II makes Kran definely more enjoyable tank for me.

EMIL II is not THAT much better than EMIL I as it seems, in fact, in terms of how well i did, i would actually say that EMIL I > EMIL II. For these reasons:

- shorter intra and shorter magazine reload, 40 sec of magazine and 3.33 intra combined with potato gun handling is damn annoying on EMIL II. 

- the gold being APCR instead of HEAT means that the shell velocity isnt as cancerous

- EMIL I's super tiny size for heavy, while not that big advantage is still something as arty will have harder time hitting it

- EMIL II has terrible gun elevation like pre-buff 50 120

 

Then again my EMIL I grind was super lucky as i got extremely often top tier while with EMIL II oppositely i got quite alot into tier 10, soooo. But i feel like that Kran > EMIL I > EMIL II

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2 minutes ago, leggasiini said:

EMIL II is not THAT much better than EMIL I as it seems, in fact, in terms of how well i did, i would actually say that EMIL I > EMIL II. For these reasons:

- shorter intra and shorter magazine reload, 40 sec of magazine and 3.33 intra combined with potato gun handling is damn annoying on EMIL II. 

- the gold being APCR instead of HEAT means that the shell velocity isnt as cancerous

- EMIL I's super tiny size for heavy, while not that big advantage is still something as arty will have harder time hitting it

- EMIL II has terrible gun elevation like pre-buff 50 120

 

Then again my EMIL I grind was super lucky as i got extremely often top tier while with EMIL II oppositely i got quite alot into tier 10, soooo. But i feel like that Kran > EMIL I > EMIL II

I don't like the Emil II's reload but it's not that bad. The gun handling is complete garbage on both which sucks, but if you can sit there and aim with your great turret then it's not too bad.

I didn't find t10 games too bad in the Emil I to be honest, nor am I finding them hard in the Emil II. Pen is enough (prem on Emil I obviously) if you can stay back and snipe - yes snipe with that 0.38 accuracy lol.

Arty ruins both these tanks to be honest. Turret is so far forwards that if you get hit you take like 1k damage from t7 arty let alone t10.

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I had nothing but bottom tier games in the Emil I, so that grind was pretty frustrating in pubs because of that. Emil II is obviously better than the Emil I, but is super frustrating to play because of the terrible reload, interclip, pen and accuracy. I'd probably go with the Emil I being better tier-for-tier.

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2 hours ago, AkulaV said:

I had nothing but bottom tier games in the Emil I, so that grind was pretty frustrating in pubs because of that. Emil II is obviously better than the Emil I, but is super frustrating to play because of the terrible reload, interclip, pen and accuracy. I'd probably go with the Emil I being better tier-for-tier.

Unlucky man, I used to get bottom tier games all the time in some of my other tanks and it ruined the entire grind for me. I found that the reload is bearable if you can sit in a solid position that is arty safe, the pen is pretty good - 252 at t9 is about average on heavies - but the accuracy is a bit lackluster.

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Not really a matter of luck to keep getting bottom tier games. Pretty sure the low server population on NA causes the problems. There are just too many tier 10s and not enough non-pref tier 8s in the que. If you dare solopub in a non-pref tier 8 on NA, expect to be bottom tier in most of your games. This cause huge problems for tanks that struggle with higher tier tanks.

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5 hours ago, Hally said:

Not really a matter of luck to keep getting bottom tier games. Pretty sure the low server population on NA causes the problems. There are just too many tier 10s and not enough non-pref tier 8s in the que. If you dare solopub in a non-pref tier 8 on NA, expect to be bottom tier in most of your games. This cause huge problems for tanks that struggle with higher tier tanks.

That sounds really bad, so does it happen to most people on NA then? Hopefully when they sort out the matchmaker this year that will be resolved.

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It happens on NA east during offpeak times, and NA west basically any time. Platooning can make this shitty mm happen less often. On tanks with low penetration like the emil I, you need to either make liberal use of gold (and kill your credit bank), or you will have a miserable time. When your gold ammo is unreliable against tier 10 (or even 9) weak spots... you really don't want to be solopubbing in it.

When I did a 50 game session for 3 mark run on lowe pre-buff; I had 37 tier 10 games, 9 tier 9 games, and only 4 games as top tier. For comparison; 50 game session on type 59 3 mark run was 18 tier 9 games and 32 tier 8 games.

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9 hours ago, striker1424 said:

That sounds really bad, so does it happen to most people on NA then? Hopefully when they sort out the matchmaker this year that will be resolved.

It was something like 45/50 games as bottom tier. I have to play on NA West if I want decent ping, which has a very low server population. I ended up grinding it in SH also, because it was so cancer to pub. Matches like this are so much fun (look at tanks damaged). At least you get a ton of XP... 

iGHmAMk.jpg

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15 hours ago, AkulaV said:

It was something like 45/50 games as bottom tier. I have to play on NA West if I want decent ping, which has a very low server population. I ended up grinding it in SH also, because it was so cancer to pub. Matches like this are so much fun (look at tanks damaged). At least you get a ton of XP... 

 

That's actually trash mm wtf. Nice ace game though, I got mine on a defeat lol also happened to be my highest xp game due to the reward for courageous resistance:Emil.PNG

Did 6.2k damage but missed 10 shots lol thanks gun:

gay.PNG

So on the topic of aces, what are the requirements for both tanks? I'm really surprised I got mine on a defeat and I have only managed a second class in the emil II so they must be really high requirements.

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Now that I'm well into the Emil 2 grind, I've got to say that I'm having a hard time imagining why anyone would prefer the Emil 1. The Emil 2 is overpowered, capable of far more extreme feats of capability while also being far more reliable thanks to the penetration, handling, and armor. 330mm of turret armor + -12 gundep on a mobile, 1600 burst autoloader with 250/300 pen should not be in the game. It outperforms the 50 120/54E1 to such an absurd degree that I personally wouldn't feel comfortable with this staying in the game as-is.

If there's no arty in a match, you can go hulldown in front of an entire flank and just sit there. Every map like this - Mines, Prokh, Malinovka, Westfield, Ruinburg, etc. are virtually unlosable without arty interference. If there's a hill involved, this tank is capable of bullying almost any tank in the game - even T10s. If there's no hill involved, you're a smaller 50 120 with incredible armor over 2/3s of its profile.

Or, you can have the Emil 1, bounce half your clip off an IS-6, then be brutalized by a T34's AP rounds. One of these tanks is balanced, the other is "balanced".

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On 01/02/2017 at 11:51 AM, Rexxie said:

Or, you can have the Emil 1, bounce half your clip off an IS-6, then be brutalized by a T34's AP rounds. One of these tanks is balanced, the other is "balanced".

Doing well in the Emil I by my lowly standards. But yeah, you summed it up pretty nicely Rexxie.

The gun handling is Cromwell bad. The fairly central mounting of the turret still occasionally catches me out and makes the 12 degrees of gun depression feel like less than it is; along with making city brawls a bit of a pain. Also, I think a lot of players haven't yet cottoned on to the fact that turret is only strongish when pointed straight at you. Once they do... And the constant gun damage has me considering running two repair kits.

Looks like the turret armour goes from T29 good on the I to T32 good on the II, which is a massive upgrade considering they both face tier X.

I originally planned to stop at the Emil I and move on to other projects. But I now see a II in my garage in the not too distant future. Take the free female crew out of the equation and I wonder if I'd have either?

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Just got the Emil II off to a horror start. Top gun but stock engine and tracks. So slow. Arty feeds freely. Combine this with the turgid turret traverse and even worse gun handling and I feel like I'm driving in a tank with multiple module damage. Longer reload plus 0 support from pubbies while reloading has added up to untimely deaths and as good as no damage in all 5 matches. Give me a few corridor maps with some cover and I'm sure things will look up.

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