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Hodders

WN8 'vs' win rate

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What is it with some tanks...... I'm grinding the Wedish tanks recently

STRV-74 T6 Swedish tank WN8 1821 with a 67% win rate
IKV-65 Alt 2 Swedish TD WN8 1785 with a 51% Win rate

By way of comparison:

E25 win rate 51.3% (should be higher I know) but a WN8 of 2091

I just cannot understand how by all measures my WN8 performance has no correlation to win rate. Surely my E25 win rate should be higher with that WN8 ?

All tanks have over 50 games and I never play in platoons. Can someone explain ?

 

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Well....WN8 is about damage, and win rate is, well, about winning.  Damage and winning don't necessarily strongly correlate, so expecting WN8 and WR to correlate in some kind of direct way is kind of silly.  

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I realise that WN8 includes far more metrics than simply win rate. But a good WN8 would imply I contribute well in that tank. I understand it's strengths and weaknesses.

Surely that contribution should reflect in the win rate over hundreds of games?

Sure there are some games when I get on shotted by something 2 tiers higher, but there are maybe 5% of games where my actions make the difference.

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3 minutes ago, Hodders said:

I realise that WN8 includes far more metrics than simply win rate. But a good WN8 would imply I contribute well in that tank. I understand it's strengths and weaknesses.

Surely that contribution should reflect in the win rate over hundreds of games?

Sure there are some games when I get on shotted by something 2 tiers higher, but there are maybe 5% of games where my actions make the difference.

It's quite simple actually.

Damage( or lets say WN8) =/= win rate. I can tell right of the bat without looking at any statistics or if I had replay of you that you're doing something wrong, and what that may be you're asking? Well, it's useless damage. Everybody loves damage, don't get me wrong but that's not entirely what wins the games. If you only sit somewhere and wait for targets to shot making 0 pressure and not picking the right flanks/targets your winrate will suffer. 

WN8 is sadly a really, excuse me, retarded metric because it makes people throw games just to get that extra damage out on useless targets or do other stupid plays. Your primary goal in WoT is to win games not pad a metric which pretty much doesn't give a shit about winning nor losing as long as you pump out that damage.

 

Most good players if you ask them(ones that are certainly better than me) they play for wins(then again, some play for damage but they win a lot as well because they're in the right positions), the longer you're alive the better the chances in you winning the games. It's crucial to take the important positions ASAP so you have that advantage over the enemy. If you focus on preserving your health more, pressure the flanks that have the threat at you'll BOTH increase your DPG and WR, there's no losing just winning from here on. If you see a lemming train, join it, don't be the guy who's stubborn to be alone on that one flank because that never works unless the enemy really is braindead which sadly is like one in a million.

 

TL;DR: A player who deals a ton of damage should also have the WR to show for it, but there are players who do have the damage but lack the WR which indicates a more selfish play. My suggestion is for you to play for wins because I can guarantee you that both your WR and DPG(or Wn8 if you please) will increase. Even I got a long way to improve, most of us have, it's better to start working on it sooner than later. 

 

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49 minutes ago, Hodders said:

I realise that WN8 includes far more metrics than simply win rate. But a good WN8 would imply I contribute well in that tank. I understand it's strengths and weaknesses.

Surely that contribution should reflect in the win rate over hundreds of games?

Sure there are some games when I get on shotted by something 2 tiers higher, but there are maybe 5% of games where my actions make the difference.

Individual tank wn8 has no meaning except how much better or worse you are then the average player. Comparing WN8 between tanks is pretty meaningless. For details read the wiki.

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damage doesn't necessarily equal winning.

Chai sniping and getting late game dmg is a great way to get wn8 but it doesn't actually help you win most of the time for example. 

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even if your skill deserved same WR in each tank, 50 game WR is totally random

I remember a thread where some math people gave numbers to how accurate WR was in 100 games and it was pretty bad, but I can't find it anymore.

point is comparing per tank WRs is pretty pointless unless you have considerably more games in each

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basically

 

STRV - med tank > getting to good position > deal relevant dmg

 

E25/IKV65 - tds, > camping in bush waiting for enemies >dealing irrelevant dmg, unless some open maps in e25 allowing vision play.

 

 

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WOW - some great replies here. Thank you. Lots of good info.

I switch between playing for enjoyment and trying to do well, but also trying not to "care" too much, but equally I also want to improve.

My stats would imply I'm better than most but still have a massive margin for better decision making and improvement. I do watch several channels with great players and try to learn from their decision making. I'll haver a search of the forums and maybe add some more twitch/youtube subscriptions. Anybody got any favourites to suggest ?

Thanks again for the time you've taken to help.

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As a general rule of thumb if your DMG based metric isn't around your WR a proportion of that dmg is not effective. If your WR isn't around your DMG based metric there's a few explanations (platoon effect, non-damage plays that turn the game such as tracking and spotting, sharing HPs). In general I lean toward WR metrics as the purpose is to win but when trying to do a deep analysis of a particular player's skill then you need to use other metrics to supplement.

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9 minutes ago, xtc4 said:

Lately I have found that LemmingRush explains very well what he is doing as he is streaming.

I don't play tanks very much anymore and I still watch his videos on youtube or twitch because he's entertaining AND informative. :)

 

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On 26/01/2017 at 0:44 AM, Hodders said:

What is it with some tanks...... I'm grinding the Wedish tanks recently

STRV-74 T6 Swedish tank WN8 1821 with a 67% win rate
IKV-65 Alt 2 Swedish TD WN8 1785 with a 51% Win rate

I just cannot understand how by all measures my WN8 performance has no correlation to win rate. Surely my E25 win rate should be higher with that WN8 ?

All tanks have over 50 games and I never play in platoons. Can someone explain ?

 

One is taking an active role in helping to secure wins whilst the other is most likely camping somewhere watching a position where you aren't contributing to the team's efforts.

Performance in each tank is 'above server average'.

Mirroring other peoples comments: Play to win - which usually involves dealing damage BUT you have to do it in an effective way; securing kills on low HP targets to get enemy tanks out of the game, helping team mates damage/kill isolated enemies (leaving you more tanks to kill theirs). WoT is a numbers game primarily - if they (the team) work together, even the best players struggle to kill 2+ noobs who work together at the same time.

Watch any replay where they secure a Kolobanovs medal  and you'll notice that 95% of these the enemy approach 1 by 1 - negating their numerical advantage.

On 26/01/2017 at 1:16 AM, Siimcy said:

TL;DR: A player who deals a ton of damage should also have the WR to show for it, but there are players who do have the damage but lack the WR which indicates a more selfish play. 

Or they play a fair bit of arty

Arty relies heavily on a team effort, to spot and let you work etc. Damage tends to be high but WR tends to be low unless in platoons (for most arty players)

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On 1/25/2017 at 5:16 PM, Siimcy said:

TL;DR: A player who deals a ton of damage should also have the WR to show for it, but there are players who do have the damage but lack the WR which indicates a more selfish play.
 

Platoon vs solopub also has a heavy effect on win rate. On the very top end, platooning can easily result in 20% or higher increase in win rate, but your actual dpg will go down compared to solopubbing. That's why ppl who go for 3 marks usually try to do it solo. (And the process of getting 3 marks is usually made easier if you are willing to sacrifice your win rate to farm useless damage.)

Your tank's ability to take and hold strategic positions also heavily influence win rate. When solopubbing, getting a 2.5k dpg E50 to go past 70% win rate is easier than geting a 3.5k dpg skoda T50 past 60% wins. Strategic positioning can restrict your opponents into more unfavorable situations, and make better use of your pubbies; while not directly doing any damage yourself.

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I completely agree, and pay no attention to my colors, but I will note that good clans pay almost no attention to my win rate. They go by colors. So there's some irony in this attitude espoused by those with both.  I still can't be arsed to worry about an external damage metric.

I do get that 'tooning with other very good players will inflate win rate. But, from my experience, 'tooning with decentish to good players doesn't necessarily do so. According to vbaddict, my 'tooned WR is the same as my overall, while my solo WR is 4 pts higher.  I have more solo than 'tooned battles by a good margin. The vast majority of my 'tooned battles were with good buddies with lower stats (I don't mean Wn8).  We had fun, but we certainly didn't win any more because 'tooned. 

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You have played 269 games in the E25 at a 51.3% WR = 138 wins.  In order to play the tank at a WR comparable to your WN8 in the tank you would need 11 more wins.  Now, I don't know what your recent stats look like in the E25, but an 11 game swing is pretty insignificant statistically in a sample group with as many uncontrolled variables as WoT.  If it took you 20-30 games after you bought it to get used to it, you would still be just now over coming that statistically.

I am not good enough at tanks to tell you what you need to do to get better as a player, but I'm good enough at math to know you don't need to worry about the stats too much.  What is more interesting is that your overall stats seem to be wildly variable and trending down over your last 2K games.  Have you made a play style or equipment change that might account for that or are you just grinding a T28 Proto from stock?

Bonne chance

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If you can do extraordinary amounts of only early damage, your win rate will naturally rise. In order to increase your win rate further, you'll need to learn so much more like positioning, trading effectively, and winning your side of the map fast.

Wn8 accounts mainly for damage, wr, spotting, and kills (unless that's changed since I stopped playing). All of those are important for winning a match. You don't typically see high WR players (excluding seal clubbers) without high Wn8. But you see plenty of "high" wn8 players with only above average WR.

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5 hours ago, Archaic_One said:

What is more interesting is that your overall stats seem to be wildly variable and trending down over your last 2K games.  Have you made a play style or equipment change that might account for that or are you just grinding a T28 Proto from stock?

Bonne chance

Good spot. I've been grinding the Swedish Med/TD lines - as a result I've been playing a lot more T4/5/6 games with the associated lower damage/xp. Although my win rates in the lower tier tanks has been pretty good. I guess because I am playing against more less experienced players where my use of terrain/cover/map knowledge has been helping more.

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Thanks for the replies - plenty to think on here. I've been looking at efficiency and WN8 as a tool for considering how effective I am in each game. That consideration of "am I doing something useful" - be it holding a choke point or piece of key terrain enabling a win, or positioned to do direct damage myself. It's been useful to reconsider that reflecting less on WN may be useful for improving my game if I just concentrate on the decisions I am making and their impact.

A comment up further about MT's being better at pressuring and controlling a game (maintain or regain the initiative) beings up an issue I struggle with in the current meta on Asia. At higher tiers it seems very much built around medium tanks. I own a lot of heavies and enjoy my td's as well. Where do you see slower tanks fitting in aside from identifying critical locations to hold or some alleys that can be pushed? Often, even if I can foresee a collapse or need to be elsewhere I simply cannot make it happen due to lack of speed.

How do you compensate for that and still achieve wins?

 

Are there specific links to youtube clips or recorded streams for some of the players/mentors mentioned? I'm not often on this forum so unfamiliar with who is who :).

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