E50 88mm analysis

[Luna 3,443]

So, the 88mm got dpm buffed. How much? It has 3600dpm (240 alpha 4s reload) compared to the 3000 of the top 105mm (390 alpha 8s reload), assuming max crew %, making it the highest of any T9 medium tank and equaling the Obj 907's. And dear god does it make the tank better.

Crunching the raw numbers, here is how the 2 compare in raw damage dealt in constant fire over an engagement duration (nonstop firing):

For the 88mm:
1-4s: 240
4-8s: 480
8-12s: 720
12-16s: 960
16-20s: 1200
20-24s: 1440
24-28s: 1680
28-30s: 1920

Versus the 105:
1-8s: 390
8-16s: 780
16-24s: 1170
24-32s: 1560

As you can see, the only points that the 105 has a damage advantage is in single shot, and then between 8-12s. Outside of that the 88mm has a higher damage potential at all times.

The 88mm APCR has 261 pen, and the 105 has 270. Imo this difference is inconsequential and plays no major impact on any differences. The 88 also has .01 better acc value, but is also too small to really notice. Dispersion values are equal between guns.

Now the important bit of all of this is how the dynamic of the tank changes. Because of the higher dpm, you are able to be much more aggressive and much more willing to fling random shots off. If a shell misses, who cares? In 4s there will be another one. This doesn't equate to being less careful with shots, but does help reduce RNG-induced salt. In regards to the playstyle, the E50 gains more of a true medium role rather than the heavium blend it was before. Flanks are much more effective because you are able to constantly shoot at targets, trading shots 1:1 becomes less ideal, but trading 1:2, 1:3, or even 1:4 becomes possible because of how fast you can load shells. It rewards a more aggressive playstyle because the more often you are firing the more effective that DPM becomes. 

Here are 11 games, 11 wins, with 4000 avg dpg in the session.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/3b7l7le8amp7avd/2.25+E50+Session.rar

Interesting note, the APCR shell for the 105 costs 4000 credits. The APCR round for the 88mm costs 4400 credits. Because WG logic. This also means I lost an avg of 60k credits per match, with the max being -111k. Do not plan to spam games in this without some serious credit farm.

 

Final thoughts: The depression buff was nice but really unneeded. It simply made the tank more comfortable to play. However after the gun buff I find a very hard time trying to justify using the 105mm at all. The tank is seriously better, and due to the 4s reload you are frequently able to get 2 shots into tanks that the 105 would have been unable to. 50 extra damage at regular intervals through a match really stack up. E50 is definately #1 T9 in game. 

[Inciatus 1,124]

Did you notice any significant difference in terms of the 88 knocking tracks and such off compared to the 105? A lot of the 88/90s seem to have trouble taking a track in a single shot which can be frustrating.

[Luna 3,443]

3 minutes ago, Inciatus said:

Did you notice any significant difference in terms of the 88 knocking tracks and such off compared to the 105? A lot of the 88/90s seem to have trouble taking a track in a single shot which can be frustrating.

Not particularly. If anything the 88 is better because permatracks are a breeze. No tank can shave rep time to <4s afaik, so it works really well at that.

[Assassin7 4,353]

8 minutes ago, Luna said:

Not particularly. If anything the 88 is better because permatracks are a breeze. No tank can shave rep time to <4s afaik, so it works really well at that.

T-54 is 3 seconds, but thats the fastest that I know of. 

[zapyoug 2,141]

The short reload and low aplha means you have to expose yourself constantly to do damage though. Does it really seem worth it for the increased long term dpm?

[Cup_Of_Soup 58]

Does it make performing chemotherapy easier? I would assume it does with the longer barrel.

[Luna 3,443]

1 hour ago, zapyoug said:

The short reload and low aplha means you have to expose yourself constantly to do damage though. Does it really seem worth it for the increased long term dpm?

Since the depression buff and the overall strong armor layout, I don't find the extra exposure time to be that bothersome. 

[graukatze 225]

Read Luna's post, switched the gun and I am not disappointed. German Shredder machine.

[GlenoWar 68]

Watched the first couple of replays. You use a pretty high zoom level and don't get much time to zoom out between shots. Does target fixation become an issue for you in longer play sessions? or do you feel you have enough situational awareness from the minimap?

94 ram damage received from the ass of a 50HP waffle 4. German paper TD's are OP, need armor nerf!

[Balthazars 210]

Thanks, interesting to see an opinion from a top-level paper. I did wonder that on paper the long-88 did seem like it could at least become a competitive option for the E-50 after getting buffed, and it seems like it is indeed competitive at the worst, and potentially now the superior option. Very interesting.

What about the lesser gold penetration on the long-88 compared to the 105 (admittedly it's not a huge difference)? Is that noticeable, particularly given the buffs to super-heavies like the Maus and Type 5?

[nabucodonsor 461]

Well the 600 more dpm is quite a bit even for tier 9/10 games, but the higher alpha would not be better on closed/city maps or when you can take just one shot of damage? What i am trying to say is that in those situations where you cant abuse your dpm or can take only poking shots wouldnt you rather have the 105 or you still think that the 88  is better? 

[canadiantrex 2,621]

I tried the long 88 full gold spam quite a while ago (2 years or more?).

The biggest issue I had with it was (IMHO only) slower shell velocity on the 88 APCR vs. the 105 APCR, leading to long range shots being derpier. Is this still an issue or was it all in my head?

[flare_phoenix 369]

5 hours ago, canadiantrex said:

I tried the long 88 full gold spam quite a while ago (2 years or more?).

The biggest issue I had with it was (IMHO only) slower shell velocity on the 88 APCR vs. the 105 APCR, leading to long range shots being derpier. Is this still an issue or was it all in my head?

Tanks.gg says that the 88 apcr is 1438 vs 1500 on the 105, so the difference isn't that much. 

[General_6 9]

8 hours ago, canadiantrex said:

I tried the long 88 full gold spam quite a while ago (2 years or more?).

The biggest issue I had with it was (IMHO only) slower shell velocity on the 88 APCR vs. the 105 APCR, leading to long range shots being derpier. Is this still an issue or was it all in my head?

They massively buffed the aim time in the long 88 so that will make the sniping feel much more fluid. 

Just looked it up, went from 2.9 to 2.0 aim time  Along with ROF increase don't know another example of such a dramatic buff in a gun ever in this game  

 

Edited February 26, 2017 by General_6
Added aim time stat

[Luna 3,443]

10 hours ago, GlenoWar said:

Watched the first couple of replays. You use a pretty high zoom level and don't get much time to zoom out between shots. Does target fixation become an issue for you in longer play sessions? or do you feel you have enough situational awareness from the minimap?

94 ram damage received from the ass of a 50HP waffle 4. German paper TD's are OP, need armor nerf!

The shortness of the reload does lead to being unable to always be zooming out between shots, but I don't feel like I need to that much anyways. It's natural at this point for me to just get into the safest spot to shoot from (assuming I have the luxury of time). Reading minimaps is more about seeing what fights are likely going to be won/lost and trying to predict that in advance to be in the best position for the outcome.

9 hours ago, Balthazars said:

Thanks, interesting to see an opinion from a top-level paper. I did wonder that on paper the long-88 did seem like it could at least become a competitive option for the E-50 after getting buffed, and it seems like it is indeed competitive at the worst, and potentially now the superior option. Very interesting.

What about the lesser gold penetration on the long-88 compared to the 105 (admittedly it's not a huge difference)? Is that noticeable, particularly given the buffs to super-heavies like the Maus and Type 5?

In theory yes, the 9mm of pen will make a difference when you are shooting at things like E-100 frontal turrets, Type 4/5 fronts, IS-7 fronts, etc. But you really shouldn't be shooting at those in the first place because it is a very unreliable penetration. Like, maybe you have a 5-10% better chance of penning with the 105mm, but if you can reposition and either get side shots or shoot something else entirely makes it a bit of a moot point. If it was a slow heavy we were discussing then it would be a valid point, but since the E-50 is so flexible then the playstyle of the tank makes it so the lower pen doesn't make an impact.

9 hours ago, nabucodonsor said:

Well the 600 more dpm is quite a bit even for tier 9/10 games, but the higher alpha would not be better on closed/city maps or when you can take just one shot of damage? What i am trying to say is that in those situations where you cant abuse your dpm or can take only poking shots wouldnt you rather have the 105 or you still think that the 88  is better? 

If I was only able to take 1 shot of damage in poke fights, then yes the 105 is better. But if I am able to have 30s of constant shooting at anything, then the 88 is miles ahead. I have an aggressive playstyle with the tank, which leads me to being able to fire a lot more rounds per match, and the 88mm rewards that better imo. The trick isn't to look at the single occasions that the extra alpha is better, but rather to look at what you are doing throughout a whole match and seeing what gun is better able to abuse the current situation.

[nabucodonsor 461]

54 minutes ago, Luna said:

The shortness of the reload does lead to being unable to always be zooming out between shots, but I don't feel like I need to that much anyways. It's natural at this point for me to just get into the safest spot to shoot from (assuming I have the luxury of time). Reading minimaps is more about seeing what fights are likely going to be won/lost and trying to predict that in advance to be in the best position for the outcome.

In theory yes, the 9mm of pen will make a difference when you are shooting at things like E-100 frontal turrets, Type 4/5 fronts, IS-7 fronts, etc. But you really shouldn't be shooting at those in the first place because it is a very unreliable penetration. Like, maybe you have a 5-10% better chance of penning with the 105mm, but if you can reposition and either get side shots or shoot something else entirely makes it a bit of a moot point. If it was a slow heavy we were discussing then it would be a valid point, but since the E-50 is so flexible then the playstyle of the tank makes it so the lower pen doesn't make an impact.

If I was only able to take 1 shot of damage in poke fights, then yes the 105 is better. But if I am able to have 30s of constant shooting at anything, then the 88 is miles ahead. I have an aggressive playstyle with the tank, which leads me to being able to fire a lot more rounds per match, and the 88mm rewards that better imo. The trick isn't to look at the single occasions that the extra alpha is better, but rather to look at what you are doing throughout a whole match and seeing what gun is better able to abuse the current situation.

Mmmmm that is a very interesting prospective. Then again considering your ability you probably take more advantage from it so it makes sense. 

[BlackAdder 1,390]

I refuse to believe that 88 is viable on E50. Tank is huge, with some RNG armor nothing beats 105 and APCR for me.

[xWulffx 393]

Reminds of British heavy and medium guns ... good gun accurate pens well, but not big alpha punch to make them hesitate.  Plus you have to expose yourself to much to take advantage of its DPS.

[jackquerudo 2,405]

Maybe it also makes people ignore you since they probably assume you're a retard for using the 88mm

[xWulffx 393]

We all know what happens when people assume, it makes an ASS out of U and ME !!!  LOL!

[Rspctd 296]

2 hours ago, jackquerudo said:

Maybe it also makes people ignore you since they probably assume you're a retard for using the 88mm

 

I mean he did do these analysis games in a plt with two other unicums. 

[SkittlesOfSteeI 1,680]

1 hour ago, Rspctd said:

I mean he did do these analysis games in a plt with two other unicums. 

However, one of those "unicums" is me, and I'm so trash at this game right now xD

[Luna 3,443]

6 hours ago, BlackAdder said:

I refuse to believe that 88 is viable on E50. Tank is huge, with some RNG armor nothing beats 105 and APCR for me.

Have you actually tried it tho is the question. Cause if you havent then you're just as bad as the pubbies. 

[Fulcrous 2,073]

I think the 88 can be good; however, the question is whether your effective dpm is high enough to use it over the 105. And quite frankly I'm not sold on it. No doubt it will be good if you manage to track something in the open and happens to not have a rep kit, but for most circumstances the 105 is better imho.

[tajj7 560]

Didn't realise it got buffed this much, will certainly give it a go though never really worked on either the Type 61 or Cent 7/1 for me. 

Also Type 61 is the same I think, maxed out the reload is 3.96s with the 90mm, plus it has better aim time and turret dispersion, though worse accuracy and AP pen.

Plus HEAT round compared to APCR. 

Though I suppose the less squishy nature of the E50 may make it more viable over the paper Type.