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Charioteer - does it need a buff?

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14 hours ago, xWulffx said:

While I applaud many of the Unicums who play a wide variety of tanks and take the challenges to keep Unucum stats with some of the real turd tanks, and (I am not casting stones or pointing fingers here) many just play the "better" tanks to maintain stats. 

Unicums will already do better than pubbies in turd tanks due to knowing what to do. Doing better than pubbies = good stats.

Unicums just don't normally play those turd tanks because it isn't fun and that's what the game is about. Zap is just a masochist, so shit tanks are fun for him. 

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21 hours ago, Flaksmith said:

Shitzal got it spot on; a combination of poor traits which make an otherwise appealing TD bad. If WG were to fix anything it should the aim time and turret dispersion, that would allow people to get accurate shots off faster in overwatch positions while preventing it from being used to agressively peek and snapshot tanks.

2

the Charioteer (and most of the British turreted, glass cannon TDs) very much retains the old reasoning for giving turreted tank destroyers slightly worse gun handling compared to the non-turreted TDs. it was also the philosophy for the US TDs.

they should look into updating some of these tanks to 2017, not just focus on the super heavy tanks

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18 hours ago, xWulffx said:

I was mainly referring to Premium tanks old and new ie JgPz88 vs Defender for example.

That being said I am not saying there are not any good older tanks, but there's a select few and many are being power crept by new lines and OP premiums.  Many are only good in certain situations or maps, and some were always crap from day one.  The IS3 is a great tank, but the Defender will beat it most matches given players with similar skill level 8-9 out of 10 matches.

A lot of it is the players. Someone like Rexxie can take just about any tanks (even the real turds) and wreck face vs mediocre players in some of the good tanks.

While I applaud many of the Unicums who play a wide variety of tanks and take the challenges to keep Unucum stats with some of the real turd tanks, and (I am not casting stones or pointing fingers here) many just play the "better" tanks to maintain stats. 

 

I know a unicum (has almost every tank in-game unlocked, playing since beta, dark purple stats, both wn7, wn8 and winratio, recent + overall)

Who thinks defender is nothing special whatsoever, ``good tier 8, nothing more`` and who thinks IS3 >> defender, not close, or perhaps in some situations, no, the IS3 is just flat out the superior tank.

For green and below, the defender will be a better, but even here the lack of accuracy / gun handling and the not that amazing armor vs anyone with half a clue OR good gold rounds makes the defender not that much better as the IS3. I keep seeing lowes and T34 dispatching Defenders with ease (just 1 vs1 in the open, no cover, since sover is for noobs), also, the side armor doesnt seem to bounce so much as IS3 and the lfp is simply to big and weak to really ``play with``, head on any tier 8 heavy with a good gun (so all except T32, 110 and Vk-A) will blast holes in it ~210mm vs 225 pen is not that amazing...

Infact, I dare to say that the Mle 49 is just as good as the defender for unicums, the extra gun depression and lack of real weakspot are worth as much as the extra alpha dmg, imprevious UFP and troll bounces of the defender, sure, the defender is better at clubbing low tiers

ps: im not buying any of those, but IF i would buy a heavy, i would buy the Mle 49, not the defender, and the only reason i wont pick Patriot over Defender is pure due to dislike for heavys with no alpha dmg (hence my hate for T32, the 105mm is an atrocious bad gun, even with gold and the 90mm is just crap, 240 dmg is just not enough...)

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17 minutes ago, GehakteMolen said:

Infact, I dare to say that the Mle 49 is just as good as the defender for unicums, the extra gun depression and lack of real weakspot are worth as much as the extra alpha dmg, imprevious UFP and troll bounces of the defender, sure, the defender is better at clubbing low tiers

Arty xvm focus and 55mm sides do not a good combination make. Heck, I'm barely yellow and still get rekt by arta from all sorts of positions. A Defender has only to go hulldown and its weakspots will be tiny and the rest of the tank invulnerable. A Liberte's frontal armour never achieves unpennable levels: it's just very good at about 250mm thick angled optimally. A lot of cover is also less reliable thanks to your cupola. You can say that a Liberte never has to really go hulldown either since it can just hug cover E5 style, but the Defender can pull off similar things.

Your friend is an idiot. I should phrase it politely. Your friend is 'special' for thinking that the Defender isn't special. The defender was originally a Tier 9 tank on an alternative tree. It gets 440 alpha and Tier 9 armour without crippling flaws. Those two traits would be pretty special per se, but it even goes 35. The 1001P is extremely strong as it is. The Defender has a similar armour profile except it's not a slug. The gun handling is bad, but considering the reload perfectly workable. Besides, it's actually better than the IS-6 and the bloom better than on the Liberte for some reason.

Playing head on against T8 heavies with good guns and getting penned is not really a problem since you always out-trade them. Besides, barring insane RNG, it shouldn't be possible to pen a Defender frontally from a T8 heavy with any amount of consistency anyway.

I get that the IS-3 is more the more consistent tank and will probably reflect skill/positioning better. However I will say that the 252U's armour is easier to use and somehow even more forgiving than the IS-3 so it will outperform the IS-3 for the vast majority of players. For unicums I suppose the Defender will still have its perks since it can hold positions against Tier 10s even when not perfectly hulldown.

Where an IS-3 is a heavium of sorts, the Defender is a pure brutish heavy. And when a tank is almost as strong as the IS-3, which is basically a Tier 9 @ Tier 8, you know the tank has to be busted.

The whole discussion with the 252U being OP on not has been done to death. At this point I can only wonder what kind of special thinking can make people come to the conclusion that the 252 is a balanced tank.

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50 minutes ago, lavawing said:

Arty xvm focus and 55mm sides do not a good combination make. Heck, I'm barely yellow and still get rekt by arta from all sorts of positions. A Defender has only to go hulldown and its weakspots will be tiny and the rest of the tank invulnerable. A Liberte's frontal armour never achieves unpennable levels: it's just very good at about 250mm thick angled optimally. A lot of cover is also less reliable thanks to your cupola. You can say that a Liberte never has to really go hulldown either since it can just hug cover E5 style, but the Defender can pull off similar things.

Your friend is an idiot. I should phrase it politely. Your friend is 'special' for thinking that the Defender isn't special. The defender was originally a Tier 9 tank on an alternative tree. It gets 440 alpha and Tier 9 armour without crippling flaws. Those two traits would be pretty special per se, but it even goes 35. The 1001P is extremely strong as it is. The Defender has a similar armour profile except it's not a slug. The gun handling is bad, but considering the reload perfectly workable. Besides, it's actually better than the IS-6 and the bloom better than on the Liberte for some reason.

Playing head on against T8 heavies with good guns and getting penned is not really a problem since you always out-trade them. Besides, barring insane RNG, it shouldn't be possible to pen a Defender frontally from a T8 heavy with any amount of consistency anyway.

I get that the IS-3 is more the more consistent tank and will probably reflect skill/positioning better. However I will say that the 252U's armour is easier to use and somehow even more forgiving than the IS-3 so it will outperform the IS-3 for the vast majority of players. For unicums I suppose the Defender will still have its perks since it can hold positions against Tier 10s even when not perfectly hulldown.

Where an IS-3 is a heavium of sorts, the Defender is a pure brutish heavy. And when a tank is almost as strong as the IS-3, which is basically a Tier 9 @ Tier 8, you know the tank has to be busted.

The whole discussion with the 252U being OP on not has been done to death. At this point I can only wonder what kind of special thinking can make people come to the conclusion that the 252 is a balanced tank.

Well, as i said, i see average players in tier 8 TDs / Lowe / T34/ King tiger / IS3 wreck Defenders fairly simple head on, a defender doesnt seem to cause much more trouble as a T28 proto or a KV4 (armor wise)

the lfp is head on stil 200-210mm, depending on height / distance to the enemy, and fairly big, so thats simply not good.

The overall package is ofc not average (at all) but its not as ``blatant op`` as many make it sound, IS3 is flat out better for unicums, and any unicum who thinks otherwise is either no unicum or should l2p IS3

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7 minutes ago, GehakteMolen said:

Well, as i said, i see average players in tier 8 TDs / Lowe / T34/ King tiger / IS3 wreck Defenders fairly simple head on, a defender doesnt seem to cause much more trouble as a T28 proto or a KV4 (armor wise)

Can confirm this bullshit, i hate when the hit and pen my roof. :( 

 

but bouncing 5k in mid range is too damn good. 

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4 hours ago, GehakteMolen said:

I know a unicum (has almost every tank in-game unlocked, playing since beta, dark purple stats, both wn7, wn8 and winratio, recent + overall)

Who thinks defender is nothing special whatsoever, ``good tier 8, nothing more`` and who thinks IS3 >> defender, not close, or perhaps in some situations, no, the IS3 is just flat out the superior tank.

For green and below, the defender will be a better, but even here the lack of accuracy / gun handling and the not that amazing armor vs anyone with half a clue OR good gold rounds makes the defender not that much better as the IS3. I keep seeing lowes and T34 dispatching Defenders with ease (just 1 vs1 in the open, no cover, since sover is for noobs), also, the side armor doesnt seem to bounce so much as IS3 and the lfp is simply to big and weak to really ``play with``, head on any tier 8 heavy with a good gun (so all except T32, 110 and Vk-A) will blast holes in it ~210mm vs 225 pen is not that amazing...

Infact, I dare to say that the Mle 49 is just as good as the defender for unicums, the extra gun depression and lack of real weakspot are worth as much as the extra alpha dmg, imprevious UFP and troll bounces of the defender, sure, the defender is better at clubbing low tiers

ps: im not buying any of those, but IF i would buy a heavy, i would buy the Mle 49, not the defender, and the only reason i wont pick Patriot over Defender is pure due to dislike for heavys with no alpha dmg (hence my hate for T32, the 105mm is an atrocious bad gun, even with gold and the 90mm is just crap, 240 dmg is just not enough...)

 

8 hours ago, MagicalFlyingFox said:

Unicums will already do better than pubbies in turd tanks due to knowing what to do. Doing better than pubbies = good stats.

Unicums just don't normally play those turd tanks because it isn't fun and that's what the game is about. Zap is just a masochist, so shit tanks are fun for him. 

I am not disagreeing with anything you guys are saying.  The thing is you pretty much make my point for me without realizing it, because perhaps I didn't make it clearly.  Even I, as a dark green, am better than 90%+ of the active players on the NA server ranked ~33,000 of  ~650,000 and I'm just OK with occasional moments of grandeur.  Most of the Dark Blues and Purples here on WOTLABS are in the top 1% or better tier.

WG is catering to the bottom 80% to 90% of players who just plain old suck dead donkey dicks on their best days with these tanks like the Defender not the top 10%.  Tanks like the Mle 49 have a much higher skill ceiling than a blunt instrument like the Defender which most shitbag pubbies would never be able to utilize, a Defender on the other hand will usually keep most of these knuckleheads alive a few minutes longer and allow them to get a couple more shots it (maybe) lol.

Most of the really good players are in good clans and get gold and tanks from that regularly or do the tourney thing and earn tons of gold that way.  WG doesn't make enough money from you guys to really care what you think a lot of the time. In comparison, the masses of royg lower end spectrum players who readily buy gold and gobble up these vehicles they consider to be OP, because they have a lower skill ceiling which they consider easy mode for them when they get a few lol troll bounces and live longer.  I think they are probably very popular on the RU server for the head butting contests they seem to consider good game play.  These are the people they are catering to and basically exploiting their lack of skill IMHO.  Does that make sense to you guys?

 

 

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Compare Charioteer to ScorpionG... both same style weakly armored, turreted tier 8 td's with good mobility. Except ScorpionG does almost everything better. Charioteer needs BIG soft stats buffs and maybe little bit more gun depression and it still would not be too powerfull compared to lot of other t8 tanks.

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5 minutes ago, sahtila said:

Compare Charioteer to ScorpionG... both same style weakly armored, turreted tier 8 td's with good mobility. Except ScorpionG does almost everything better. Charioteer needs BIG soft stats buffs and maybe little bit more gun depression and it still would not be too powerfull compared to lot of other t8 tanks.

Scorpion's low shell velocity makes it iffy at long ranges whereas the Charioteer has that dank APCR. The Charioteer is also not an autopen for HE unlike the Scorp, as is reasonably stealthy. The Scorp is easier to use in the meta, but the Charioteer retains a lot of strengths.

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4 hours ago, lavawing said:

Scorpion's low shell velocity makes it iffy at long ranges whereas the Charioteer has that dank APCR. The Charioteer is also not an autopen for HE unlike the Scorp, as is reasonably stealthy. The Scorp is easier to use in the meta, but the Charioteer retains a lot of strengths.

 

that low shell velocity is easy to get used to, and at least it'll shoot straight compared to the Charioteer which has a nasty habit of kicking up dirt 50m-450m away.

the only "strengths" the Charioteer has over the Skorpion is having HESH and being faster. This in the long-running meta of superheavy tanks and corridor maps, with invisi-sniping/doom cannon TDs in the mix.

If in theory it should be able to run alongside the medium tanks then it needs to be able to handle just as well if not better

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On 4/16/2017 at 6:49 AM, SaintLaurentius said:

Charioteer is the best tank in the line. Gun is deadly if you let it aim and mobility is good. Charioteer is basically a medium tank imo. The dispersion could be a tad bit better, but still workable.

That's because the whole line is bad and ends with a bad tier 10. I'm on the Char now, and finally got the good gun. It went from absolute dog shit to occasionally tolerable. No depression, bad camo, no armor and no real great way to play it on many maps. I was looking forward to this one too because everyone said it's the highlight of the grind. Stopping there, no point going further. For some reason I wasted a female crew on this line. 

You're right about it being a pseudo-medium, which is how I end up playing it because there's no other choice. It's bad in that role, and it's not a good thing. 

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1. Extremely fast.

2. An excellent moneymaker.

3. The Hesh can be handy for some unusual situations.

 

The Conway sucks swamp water, but the Charioteer is a good tank.

 

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On 18.04.2017 at 0:33 AM, xWulffx said:

I was mainly referring to Premium tanks old and new ie JgPz88 vs Defender for example.

That being said I am not saying there are not any good older tanks, but there's a select few and many are being power crept by new lines and OP premiums.  Many are only good in certain situations or maps, and some were always crap from day one.  The IS3 is a great tank, but the Defender will beat it most matches given players with similar skill level 8-9 out of 10 matches.

A lot of it is the players. Someone like Rexxie can take just about any tanks (even the real turds) and wreck face vs mediocre players in some of the good tanks.

While I applaud many of the Unicums who play a wide variety of tanks and take the challenges to keep Unucum stats with some of the real turd tanks, and (I am not casting stones or pointing fingers here) many just play the "better" tanks to maintain stats. 

 

I'm one of the few people here who gets flack for stating how broken the defender is but is3 vs defender 1:1 the is3 wins hands down. Defender is better at fighting multiple enemies IF you are retarded because the armor forgives soooooo much. 

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getting back on track to the Charioteer,

i've reset my crew skills to get BIA on them, and while there is some marginal improvements, it still handles awkwardly oftentimes

On 2017-4-20 at 9:21 PM, lavawing said:

Scorpion's low shell velocity makes it iffy at long ranges whereas the Charioteer has that dank APCR. The Charioteer is also not an autopen for HE unlike the Scorp, as is reasonably stealthy. The Scorp is easier to use in the meta, but the Charioteer retains a lot of strengths.

that dank APCR just means the Charioteer can miss its shots faster, whereas on the Skorpion G you can watch that big fat shell fly and land a big ass hit on some poor sod who just happened to turn into your shot

it's really hard to make full use of its "strengths" when there are so many weaknesses and threats it has to deal with

On 2017-5-2 at 3:55 AM, Prosqtor said:

1. Extremely fast.

2. An excellent moneymaker.

3. The Hesh can be handy for some unusual situations.

 

The Conway sucks swamp water, but the Charioteer is a good tank.

 

1) Skorp can go 60kph, the Charioteer barely reaches 52 kph. But yes the Charioteer has the better p/w ratio...

2) There are better moneymakers

3)  By unusual you mean against paper tanks, then yes it does come in handy. But against some same tier and higher super heavy tanks, unless you had their flanks or rear, you either shoot at something else or hope 268mm APCR pen is enough (it often isn't), since there's no HEAT you can dab to win.

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On 4/16/2017 at 11:43 PM, SchnitzelTruck said:

You and I both know that a low HP paper tank with horrific bloom, low VR, and pretty average gun apart from shell velocity is not gonna win 72% solo. None of your stats in it even hint at anything close to 72%, its a fluke that you have such high WR, don't pretend its because of what you're doing in it or because the tank is super duper OP.

Hrm.. really hard to be a fluke with nearly 200 battles in it. 470 VR with optics at tier 8 is not really "blind"

 

@ThomChen144 there's a massive terrain resistance difference. Charioteer reach 50+ very quickly and stay there even on small uphill climbs. Skorp reach 40 slower than charioteer reach 50, and cannot actually reach 50 without downhill assist.

I find it very mediocre in the moneymaking department. It need food to make the gun handling workable... which cuts into profits really badly.

I find the HESH garbage. I'd much rather have the skorp's apcr as prem ammo to deal with superheavies.

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11 hours ago, Hally said:

@ThomChen144 there's a massive terrain resistance difference. Charioteer reach 50+ very quickly and stay there even on small uphill climbs. Skorp reach 40 slower than charioteer reach 50, and cannot actually reach 50 without downhill assist.

I find it very mediocre in the moneymaking department. It need food to make the gun handling workable... which cuts into profits really badly.

I find the HESH garbage. I'd much rather have the skorp's apcr as prem ammo to deal with superheavies.

 

aye, i forgot to mention that, that's one of the few advantages the Charioteer does have over the Skorpion G, where you can actually reach at least 40 in the time it make take a Skorp to reach 30

one does not play the Charioteer in order to farm credits. Not least when i play it, and even as I carry just 5 premium HESH, each misses on those babies can really sting. As for food, i've got a bunch accumulated over time so that's one thing less sucking up my profits (for now)

HESH used to be great, and while it's still quite enjoyable to dump one on a thinly armored tank, the premium HESH with 210 avg pen used to be viable against the face front of heavy tanks, and even on some at tier 8+. But that was before powercreep, when less and less heavy tanks had frontal weakspots to exploit, and even more tanks have more than 210 base front armor now

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16 hours ago, Hally said:

Hrm.. really hard to be a fluke with nearly 200 battles in it. 470 VR with optics at tier 8 is not really "blind"

 

... yes it's a fluke. If you had any idea what it takes to solo 70%+ regularly you'd agree.

his unimpressive dpg, spots, and assist don't hint at it being skill related (not trying to be an ass)

it's a meh tank in the HT facefuck brawl meta . Not bad, but also not particularly good.

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52 minutes ago, SchnitzelTruck said:

... yes it's a fluke. If you had any idea what it takes to solo 70%+ regularly you'd agree.

his unimpressive dpg, spots, and assist don't hint at it being skill related (not trying to be an ass)

it's a meh tank in the HT facefuck brawl meta . Not bad, but also not particularly good.

So how much do you expect before you consider it not a fluke?

9c427d183a4849cebadceda22b1a7977.jpg

It's not that different from an is-3 that get 70% win rate...

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56 minutes ago, Hally said:

So how much do you expect before you consider it not a fluke?

9c427d183a4849cebadceda22b1a7977.jpg

It's not that different from an is-3 that get 70% win rate...

Have in mind IS3's are slower and have lower DPM so they get less mopup damage so lower DPG for same win rate.

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I'm a pleb Charioteer player, but I've cranked a fuckton of games in it. Whoever says the Charioteer has no camo... my full camo crew has me outspotting most 8 and 9 mediums with optics. The only thing that really needs buffed is that horrendous bloom.Accuracy with my crew is .33 and I'm hitting way more shots in it than the * cough * .29 on the Skorp. To answer the question though, does it need a buff? Yes... Does it need a powercreep buff like all the antics WG are doing? No...

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On 4/16/2017 at 6:26 PM, Hally said:

Charioteer is OP as hell. L7 with good dpm, and mobility that puts most t8 meds to shame is plainly broken. This is what the leo pta wants to be, but a whole tier lower. The bloom takes some time to get used to; but not unworkable.

73% solo pub win rate in it while facing tier 10s 90%+ times. It is literally one of the best tier 8s out there for winning matches.

How the hell do you play the charioteer?  I am grinding through that tank at the moment, and i can't do a damn thing in it.     of course i'm just a scrub 50%'r. 

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2 hours ago, SmalltalkJava said:

How the hell do you play the charioteer?  I am grinding through that tank at the moment, and i can't do a damn thing in it.     of course i'm just a scrub 50%'r. 

Get a good crew and play vision; the tank has enough camo value and base VR to do so. If your have a poor crew, or don't have the top gun yet.. then ya.. you are gonna suffer.. a lot. This is one of those tanks that improve vastly with crew skills.

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