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17 hours ago, Ezz said:

That looks like the adjustment for when they removed its pref mm. Do you have the next round of adjustments handy for when it was shifted back to pref mm?

These are patch notes, no super test, so these got implemented, type 59 drivers are like arty players and their ``learn to avoid``...

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Yes and the point is do you have a reference point for when the 59 was given normal mm, then when it was shifted back to pref?

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18 hours ago, Ezz said:

Yes and the point is do you have a reference point for when the 59 was given normal mm, then when it was shifted back to pref?

It never got normal mm :P

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28 minutes ago, GehakteMolen said:

It never got normal mm :P

Lol?

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4 minutes ago, Ezz said:

Lol?

What?

Type 59 always had spmm, WG wanted to change this, but forum went full retard, so they didnt (it would get normal mm and loose the gun depression, but get in return more ammo, better gun handling and better mobility (or so)

Should be somewhere in super test  patch notes (around 8.0 afaik, will have a quick google later)

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Just now, GehakteMolen said:

What?

Type 59 always had spmm, WG wanted to change this, but forum went full retard, so they didnt (it would get normal mm and loose the gun depression, but get in return more ammo, better gun handling and better mobility (or so)

Should be somewhere in super test  patch notes (around 8.0 afaik, will have a quick google later)

Interesting. Could it be it never went full MM on EU but did on NA (where we were at the time)? I know i faced 10s in it. Hence i thought the buffs you listed above were in line with that shift. To be honest it matters little. Whether nerfed to its current state or simply power crept, it certainly once was excellent, now not so much.

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Never had it on NA either so far as I can recall. Is it possible you faced tier 9 which got bumped to tier 10 (IS-4?) or that you guys had a regular matchmaking tank in a platoon with your 59?

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All a bit odd. It was years ago so I could be dreaming @Politx_Killer do you recall if the 59 ever did get normal mm or as above was it threatened then repealed?

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5 hours ago, Ezz said:

All a bit odd. It was years ago so I could be dreaming @Politx_Killer do you recall if the 59 ever did get normal mm or as above was it threatened then repealed?

Pretty sure I used to face 10s in it. It had the same MM as the lowe from rough memory. 

Tbh it does fine in tier 10 battles. Could handle a slight terrain resistance buff.

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19 hours ago, Ezz said:

Interesting. Could it be it never went full MM on EU but did on NA (where we were at the time)? I know i faced 10s in it. Hence i thought the buffs you listed above were in line with that shift. To be honest it matters little. Whether nerfed to its current state or simply power crept, it certainly once was excellent, now not so much.

 

12 hours ago, MetGreDKo said:

Never had it on NA either so far as I can recall. Is it possible you faced tier 9 which got bumped to tier 10 (IS-4?) or that you guys had a regular matchmaking tank in a platoon with your 59?

 

5 hours ago, Politx_Killer said:

Pretty sure I used to face 10s in it. It had the same MM as the lowe from rough memory. 

Tbh it does fine in tier 10 battles. Could handle a slight terrain resistance buff.

Perhaps there was no spmm, before patch 7.5? (mm used to be -3/+3, in 7.5 this got made -2/+2)

Without spmm, then type 59 would see tier 10 tanks, but this was only mm change, no buff / nerf (if there was no spmm, then IS6 and KV5 also had normal mm then, making the type 59 even more OP (relative speaking) since, 167 pen and no gold rounds, GG)

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On 24.05.2017 at 0:29 PM, GehakteMolen said:

They never nerfed type :P

WG did offer a refund when they nerfed Super Pershing, but this was not a small nerf, but they killed the tank

For the new prems:

  • Patriot: nerf lfp armor a lot, make hatch a bit bigger and weaker OR nerf the mobility a lot, so it move like a heavy, not heavium
  • Defender: make the hatches a bit bigger, nerf UFP a bit (so when he angles, it becomes much faster weak) and put a normal 390 dmg gun on it, 440 is too much, unless it has paper armor
  • Liberte: nerf lfp and small buff to dpm (a liberte cant be angled, so nerfing the lfp would make the armor worthless, like how VK-B also was shit, you couldnt angle it, forcing you to take anything head on, having shitty front armor thus made the tank awefull...)
  • Cry K: give it a machine gun port, nerf hatch + make it bigger

That said, long ago many tanks had viewport  and suchs, WG has been steadily removing these weakspots for many patches, imo a bad game direction...

 

On 25.05.2017 at 3:24 PM, clownshoes2 said:

Type59 is shit. It's garbage now. I fucking hope and pray WG puts in on sale so all the 59 fanboys can spend 200 on it then bitch that it's a pile of shit.

Sorry but no it isn't. It's annoying to play that is true but compared to other t8 meds it still better than most if not all of them + it gets SPMM. You get a tank with a strong turret, 7deg of gun dep and spmm and for that you pay with what? Mediocre gun handling? 0.18/0.18/0.16 is bad but there are worse tanks in trier. CDC, T54mod1 heave clearly worse bloom. t44 is worse on the move but better on turret rotation. The only meds with hands down better guns are obj416, pershing and the germans. 

On 24.05.2017 at 0:29 PM, GehakteMolen said:

They never nerfed type :P

WG did offer a refund when they nerfed Super Pershing, but this was not a small nerf, but they killed the tank

For the new prems:

  • Patriot: nerf lfp armor a lot, make hatch a bit bigger and weaker OR nerf the mobility a lot, so it move like a heavy, not heavium
  • Defender: make the hatches a bit bigger, nerf UFP a bit (so when he angles, it becomes much faster weak) and put a normal 390 dmg gun on it, 440 is too much, unless it has paper armor
  • Liberte: nerf lfp and small buff to dpm (a liberte cant be angled, so nerfing the lfp would make the armor worthless, like how VK-B also was shit, you couldnt angle it, forcing you to take anything head on, having shitty front armor thus made the tank awefull...)
  • Cry K: give it a machine gun port, nerf hatch + make it bigger

That said, long ago many tanks had viewport  and suchs, WG has been steadily removing these weakspots for many patches, imo a bad game direction...

Defender needs a slight lfp nerf so that 200-220 guns can pen it more reliably. Unless you want to nerf the ufp so bad you can't angle it because 200-220 pen would go through it. Otherwise is2's, is6's, kv5's an many t8 meds will have little chance against it. 

On 25.05.2017 at 3:24 PM, clownshoes2 said:

Type59 is shit. It's garbage now. I fucking hope and pray WG puts in on sale so all the 59 fanboys can spend 200 on it then bitch that it's a pile of shit.

Sorry but no it isn't. It's annoying to play that is true but compared to other t8 meds it still better than most if not all of them + it gets SPMM. You get a tank with a strong turret, 7deg of gun dep and spmm and for that you pay with what? Mediocre gun handling? 0.18/0.18/0.16 is bad but there are worse tanks in trier. CDC, T54mod1 heave clearly worse bloom. t44 is worse on the move but better on turret rotation. The only meds with hands down better guns are obj416, pershing and the germans. 

On 24.05.2017 at 0:29 PM, GehakteMolen said:

They never nerfed type :P

WG did offer a refund when they nerfed Super Pershing, but this was not a small nerf, but they killed the tank

For the new prems:

  • Patriot: nerf lfp armor a lot, make hatch a bit bigger and weaker OR nerf the mobility a lot, so it move like a heavy, not heavium
  • Defender: make the hatches a bit bigger, nerf UFP a bit (so when he angles, it becomes much faster weak) and put a normal 390 dmg gun on it, 440 is too much, unless it has paper armor
  • Liberte: nerf lfp and small buff to dpm (a liberte cant be angled, so nerfing the lfp would make the armor worthless, like how VK-B also was shit, you couldnt angle it, forcing you to take anything head on, having shitty front armor thus made the tank awefull...)
  • Cry K: give it a machine gun port, nerf hatch + make it bigger

That said, long ago many tanks had viewport  and suchs, WG has been steadily removing these weakspots for many patches, imo a bad game direction...

Defender needs a slight lfp nerf so that 200-220 guns can pen it more reliably. Unless you want to nerf the ufp so bad you can't angle it because 200-220 pen would go through it. Otherwise is2's, is6's, kv5's an many t8 meds will have little chance against it. 

On 25.05.2017 at 3:24 PM, clownshoes2 said:

Type59 is shit. It's garbage now. I fucking hope and pray WG puts in on sale so all the 59 fanboys can spend 200 on it then bitch that it's a pile of shit.

Sorry but no it isn't. It's annoying to play that is true but compared to other t8 meds it still better than most if not all of them + it gets SPMM. You get a tank with a strong turret, 7deg of gun dep and spmm and for that you pay with what? Mediocre gun handling? 0.18/0.18/0.16 is bad but there are worse tanks in trier. CDC, T54mod1 heave clearly worse bloom. t44 is worse on the move but better on turret rotation. The only meds with hands down better guns are obj416, pershing and the germans. 

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I get penned through the front of turret in my patriot in nearly every other game.  The hull armor is autopen for all tier 8 heavies using regular AP except the T32, KV-5 and IS-6.  What makes the patriot is not the armor, its the combination of DPM and mobility.  The patriot is not really a tier 8 heavy, its a sluggish tier 9 medium.  Its broken, but not really in the same way as the defender, liberte and chrysler k.

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12 hours ago, GehakteMolen said:

 

 

Perhaps there was no spmm, before patch 7.5? (mm used to be -3/+3, in 7.5 this got made -2/+2)

Without spmm, then type 59 would see tier 10 tanks, but this was only mm change, no buff / nerf (if there was no spmm, then IS6 and KV5 also had normal mm then, making the type 59 even more OP (relative speaking) since, 167 pen and no gold rounds, GG)

Dont forget when they introduced physics they nerfed its mobility drastically.

Its far slower then it was. The gun handling is only bearable with bia, vert stabs and smooth ride etc.

Its only OP in the way it was too good for a premium, but a decent tech tree tank.

Once upon a time the team with thr most KV-5s usually lost. Type was only considered OP because there was usually 5 of them running around in a wolfpack and where basically immune to T6/7 tanks frontally.

Ive had the type since release. Plus 4.5k games in it. Its an ok T8, but the new prems shit all over it.

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20 hours ago, GehakteMolen said:

Perhaps there was no spmm, before patch 7.5? (mm used to be -3/+3, in 7.5 this got made -2/+2)

Without spmm, then type 59 would see tier 10 tanks, but this was only mm change, no buff / nerf (if there was no spmm, then IS6 and KV5 also had normal mm then, making the type 59 even more OP (relative speaking) since, 167 pen and no gold rounds, GG)

Nope, it existed at least as far back as 6.4: http://s126.photobucket.com/user/CaptKIng/media/MM_chart_64.jpg.html

Found here: http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/26236-archived-player-questions-developer-answers/

Spoiler named  TAGS: T34/T30, M36, server population, WOWP accounts, Patch 7.0, E-75 gun, tank profitability, E50 weapons

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10 hours ago, Politx_Killer said:

1: Dont forget when they introduced physics they nerfed its mobility drastically.

2: Its far slower then it was. The gun handling is only bearable with bia, vert stabs and smooth ride etc.

3: Its only OP in the way it was too good for a premium, but a decent tech tree tank.

Once upon a time the team with thr most KV-5s usually lost. Type was only considered OP because there was usually 5 of them running around in a wolfpack and where basically immune to T6/7 tanks frontally.

Ive had the type since release. Plus 4.5k games in it. Its an ok T8, but the new prems shit all over it.

1: all fast tanks lost mobility with these changes (happend twice, we got twice new physics, and twice tanks became slower, especially the first time, when WG removed cliff-hanging etc)

2: see above, all tanks suffer from that (poor Panther II even used to be ``fast``)

3: how so? its the best medium, apart from T44 and Pershing (416 and T69 are no mediums) AND has spmm, it shits wins, credits and wn8, its like the E50 of tier 8, doesnt matter what you wanna farm, type 59 is the best for it

Most people confuse high dmg with beiing good and somehow think: often big carry = good tank, but the best tanks are the reliable performers, KV4, Ferdinand, E50, they will always contribute, ``are there`` when needed, and can still turn the tables / hold a flank / win when its very unlikely

A type 59 has everything enough to be relevant, and doesnt have real weaknesses, yeah, its a bit slowish, but main reason you need mobility it to get from A to B and climb hills, type 59 is more then fast enough for that, fighting is static anyway, the gun handling is perhaps not good but neither do other mediums have that, the same for pen (WG is powercreeping the penetration of tier 8 mediums though...)

The only real con is the low ammo count, forcing you to carry a ton of APCR / low AP, which cuts your profit, and limits HE (i would run 15-18-1 i think, you really need APCR against many foes + low ammo count you also cant afford to bounce much...)

3 hours ago, MetGreDKo said:

Nope, it existed at least as far back as 6.4: http://s126.photobucket.com/user/CaptKIng/media/MM_chart_64.jpg.html

Found here: http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/26236-archived-player-questions-developer-answers/

Spoiler named  TAGS: T34/T30, M36, server population, WOWP accounts, Patch 7.0, E-75 gun, tank profitability, E50 weapons

Well, than that proofs that type always had spmm, and thus never saw tier 10, unless fail platoons or low playercount (something i can see happen on US or asia servers)

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Hang on, so you've flat out stated that the Type never ever got nerfed, yet when people point out that it did you say that it doesn't count because everything else got nerfed too. Then you say that because pref mm has always existed that it's proof that the type ALWAYS had spmm.

Well you'd be fucking wrong cock.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Changelog:_World_of_Tanks_(PC)_Patch_0.7.1

30as1sp.png

The more you talk the more apparent it becomes that skill level doesn't necessarily correlate with intelligence. Stop trying to pass off your subjective opinions as objective facts.

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1 hour ago, GehakteMolen said:

1: all fast tanks lost mobility with these changes (happend twice, we got twice new physics, and twice tanks became slower, especially the first time, when WG removed cliff-hanging etc)

2: see above, all tanks suffer from that (poor Panther II even used to be ``fast``)

3: how so? its the best medium, apart from T44 and Pershing (416 and T69 are no mediums) AND has spmm, it shits wins, credits and wn8, its like the E50 of tier 8, doesnt matter what you wanna farm, type 59 is the best for it

Most people confuse high dmg with beiing good and somehow think: often big carry = good tank, but the best tanks are the reliable performers, KV4, Ferdinand, E50, they will always contribute, ``are there`` when needed, and can still turn the tables / hold a flank / win when its very unlikely

A type 59 has everything enough to be relevant, and doesnt have real weaknesses, yeah, its a bit slowish, but main reason you need mobility it to get from A to B and climb hills, type 59 is more then fast enough for that, fighting is static anyway, the gun handling is perhaps not good but neither do other mediums have that, the same for pen (WG is powercreeping the penetration of tier 8 mediums though...)

The only real con is the low ammo count, forcing you to carry a ton of APCR / low AP, which cuts your profit, and limits HE (i would run 15-18-1 i think, you really need APCR against many foes + low ammo count you also cant afford to bounce much...)

Well, than that proofs that type always had spmm, and thus never saw tier 10, unless fail platoons or low playercount (something i can see happen on US or asia servers)

1.  Type was never fast. It was mobile, but never fast.

2. See 1.

3. T-44/pershing/STA2/m46 are all better, T69/416 are still mediums.

Kv-4 is shit compared to IS-3, ferdi is shit compared to JPII/borsig. E50 is the choice tank of wn8 padders fail to see the point there.

 

Do you actually own a type 59? Or just speaking through your arsehole?

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1 hour ago, Politx_Killer said:

1.  Type was never fast. It was mobile, but never fast.

2. See 1.

3. T-44/pershing/STA2/m46 are all better, T69/416 are still mediums.

Kv-4 is shit compared to IS-3, ferdi is shit compared to JPII/borsig. E50 is the choice tank of wn8 padders fail to see the point there.

Do you actually own a type 59? Or just speaking through your arsehole?

Uh mr pro, Ferdinand >> Rhm and Jp2 performance wise, for everyone, even super unicums

To quote the most valuable post of the whole forum again:

place    uniwin    superwin
1        IS-3        IS-3
2        T32        T32
3        Ferdinand    Ferdinand
4        KV-4        Pershing
5        T-44        T-44
6        Pershing    KV-4
7        O-Ho        Obj. 416
8        Obj. 416    110
9        Tiger II    Tiger II
10      Centurion I    Charioteer

So, Ferdinand > any other tier 8 tank, except T32 / IS3 and KV4 > anything except IS3 and T32

heck, the AT-15 is one of the better tier 8 tanks (nr11) and better as any td bar the Ferdi...

Plain numbers > peoples ``feels`` about tanks

And most of the time my ``feels`` matches (far) better with real numbers as joe average (on wotlabs)

Mobility gets massive overrated for ``tank strength`` while plain hitpoints and dpm (including first shot :) ) get massive ``underrated``

ps: i call(ed) T44 and Pershing best tier 8 mediums since like forever and IS3 > KV4 / KT > anything else on tier 8, given most ppl have l2drive isseus with KT (hence the ``low`` rating), it seems my opinion matches ``facts`` far more as the average player...

Type 59 is not listed, because of spmm, but im quite sure it will be the best tier 8 spmm tank (winratio wise) perhaps KV5 outperforms it, but i doubt (there are not that many ppl shooting tons of gold in a KV5)

ps ps: of the new tanks, i guess defender and patriot will be high up the list (around KV4), mle 49 will suffer the same fate as KT, too many ppl play it wrong, so it will have good numbers, but not that amazing

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1 hour ago, Politx_Killer said:

1.  Type was never fast. It was mobile, but never fast.

2. See 1.

3. T-44/pershing/STA2/m46 are all better, T69/416 are still mediums.

Kv-4 is shit compared to IS-3, ferdi is shit compared to JPII/borsig. E50 is the choice tank of wn8 padders fail to see the point there.

 

Do you actually own a type 59? Or just speaking through your arsehole?

 

I'd really want to see Richard Nixon stats for the type because it's exactly the type of tank that gets undervalued on Wotlabs - a tank that's uneriable. Wotlabs hates unreliable guns or armor and type59 feels weak because it's not amazing at farming damage but it's a rare t8 med that has presence and thanks to armor + dep can actually hold a flank relatively good compared to other t8 meds. This is why it's good for WR even if it's shit for DPG and WN8.

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going by RNX's site, the type beats all t8 mediums in expected WR for all skill levels. it loses to a number of the best t8 heavies though.

http://jaj22.org.uk/expvals.html

 

also hypehype

Quote

– We’re looking at the Type 59 statistics, we might buff it a little bit;

https://thearmoredpatrol.com/2017/05/28/wot-grand-finals-qa-part-3/

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7 hours ago, StormCrowReaperManyHats said:

Hang on, so you've flat out stated that the Type never ever got nerfed, yet when people point out that it did you say that it doesn't count because everything else got nerfed too. Then you say that because pref mm has always existed that it's proof that the type ALWAYS had spmm.

Well you'd be fucking wrong cock.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Changelog:_World_of_Tanks_(PC)_Patch_0.7.1

30as1sp.png

The more you talk the more apparent it becomes that skill level doesn't necessarily correlate with intelligence. Stop trying to pass off your subjective opinions as objective facts.

Simply pointing to a +1 max battle tier also does not prove it was given regular matchmaking nor does that chart mean anything at all. Those patch notes don't state anything about the Type 59, KV-5, Lowe nor the M6A2E1 being moved up to tier 9 which is on the chart.

We know the Type 59 was introduced in patch 6.7. If you're going to assert the maximum battle tier increased in 7.1 means it saw tier 10 as a part of its ordinary matchmaker then the patch notes should also mention somewhere that its maximum battle tier was reduced by 1 at some point between then and now as we know at present it doesn't see tier 10.

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2 hours ago, MetGreDKo said:

Simply pointing to a +1 max battle tier also does not prove it was given regular matchmaking nor does that chart mean anything at all. Those patch notes don't state anything about the Type 59, KV-5, Lowe nor the M6A2E1 being moved up to tier 9 which is on the chart.

We know the Type 59 was introduced in patch 6.7. If you're going to assert the maximum battle tier increased in 7.1 means it saw tier 10 as a part of its ordinary matchmaker then the patch notes should also mention somewhere that its maximum battle tier was reduced by 1 at some point between then and now as we know at present it doesn't see tier 10.

WG never changes its mm spmm -> normal mm -> spmm, im 100% sure

All i wasnt sure if spmm was also a thing BEFORE we got +2 mm, but it seems there already was, however a bit different (these charts show ALL important things for mm, reason it are always shaddy table things, is that WG themself never give them)

  • KV5 = max battle tier 10 = max tier 9 tanks and tier 6 arty (spmm)
  • Type = max battle tier 11 = max tier 10 tanks and tier 7 arty, so the same as normal tier 8 tanks

So while there was spmm, type didnt have it :P 

ps: and this was when the game had +3 mm, not only due to patch, but also values, a tier 7 TD can meet tier 10 tanks for example (and because there where only tier 10 heavys anyway, this was not that relevant)

ps ps: also note that there used to be 13 battle tiers, this got later reworked to 12, then 11 and now we have 12 again (15-0-0 would be 12, 5-10 would be 11 and 3-5-7 would be 10) so max tier 8 sees is battle tier 10

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48 minutes ago, GehakteMolen said:

WG never changes its mm spmm -> normal mm -> spmm, im 100% sure

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/80905-world-of-tanks-71-update/

Not sure how else to interpret that...

3 hours ago, MetGreDKo said:

We know the Type 59 was introduced in patch 6.7. If you're going to assert the maximum battle tier increased in 7.1 means it saw tier 10 as a part of its ordinary matchmaker then the patch notes should also mention somewhere that its maximum battle tier was reduced by 1 at some point between then and now as we know at present it doesn't see tier 10.

Is it possible EU didn't get the above change?

By the looks it went back to pref MM around 7.5. A bit of a vague reference but at least it's mentioned as a specific case in that chart now. Note also it no longer sees BT 11 while it did in the 7.1 chart above.

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/145582-75-update-notes/

  Reworked Match-Making for the majority of vehicles. Now players won't normally see vehicles of more than two tiers difference to the tier of his/her own vehicle (new MM chart can be found here)

 

3 hours ago, MetGreDKo said:

Those patch notes don't state anything about the Type 59, KV-5, Lowe nor the M6A2E1 being moved up to tier 9 which is on the chart.

Fwiw, WG did MM charts in 'Battle Tier'. Ie a tier 8 med would see battle tiers 9 - 11. BT 9 meant tier 8s were top tier. It was WG's whacky way of complicating things. Hence the 59 saw the same MM as normal 8 meds in 7.1 (refer the top half for normal tanks).

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13 hours ago, hazzgar said:

 

I'd really want to see Richard Nixon stats for the type because it's exactly the type of tank that gets undervalued on Wotlabs - a tank that's uneriable. Wotlabs hates unreliable guns or armor and type59 feels weak because it's not amazing at farming damage but it's a rare t8 med that has presence and thanks to armor + dep can actually hold a flank relatively good compared to other t8 meds. This is why it's good for WR even if it's shit for DPG and WN8.

It poops WN8, the gun is just annoying.

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