Anybody play primarily cruisers?

[Pocktio 730]

Cruisers require constant attention and skill. You can die or be crippled in seconds. You don't if you play a BB, well you can get wrecked but not deleted usually and it will 100% be your own fault it happened, unlike cruisers where shitty luck can get you. There's nothing more frustrating than deploying mad WASD hax, dealing damage, maybe getting a kill, weaving like a motherclucker and that baddie Colorado base camping at max range is missing every volley, except that last volley? 7 shots hit the water miles way, but oh nooo, that one random shell lands and bam, you take a citadel and you're crippled. The game loves to reward bad play from people like that.

Plus guns that hit hard. It is soooooo much easier to rack up damage quickly. Cruisers need time to build up damage, increasing the time means there are more opportunities to get wrecked.

It's a shame cruisers have no real strength over BBs or DDs anymore, the meta scorns them :/

[OnboardG1 1,279]

The BB situation right now is like the TD situation used to be in WoT. They're slightly overpowered and too easy to play so every wannagreen flocks to them and fills the matchmaker up with instant deletion. A cruiser can reliably evade one or two battleships but not five of them. Good positioning can help but at the end of the day if your battleships are worse than their battleships your line will collapse too quickly for you to deal damage before you get swamped by 16 inch skill.

[Rodrigopine 184]

4 hours ago, OnboardG1 said:

The BB situation right now is like the TD situation used to be in WoT. They're slightly overpowered and too easy to play so every wannagreen flocks to them and fills the matchmaker up with instant deletion. A cruiser can reliably evade one or two battleships but not five of them. Good positioning can help but at the end of the day if your battleships are worse than their battleships your line will collapse too quickly for you to deal damage before you get swamped by 16 inch skill.

This is an excellent summary of high tier meta and explains why I can consistently hit high damage numbers in the Roon but have an awful win rate. Generally what happens is I pew pew all match at about14-15 km racking up damage only to be one of the last people to die on my team. I've tried getting more aggressive early on but that just means dying earlier. Really it comes down to which team has competent BBs that can take strong positions early, evade torpedoes and efficiently manage their repair cool downs.

[SmirkingGerbil 110]

The Kuma with a 10 point or + captain is a nasty little bugger @FlorbFnarb As mentioned the Koenigsberg is an awesome cruiser, but you have to use it's ability to run away from the fight, pulling the potato with you, and firing from the aft guns. Smart people break off, potatoes die while chasing you down.

The Gneisenau is a fast BB and gets past some of your pain points.

 

[publord 20]

On 7/18/2017 at 7:41 AM, OnboardG1 said:

The BB situation right now is like the TD situation used to be in WoT. They're slightly overpowered and too easy to play so every wannagreen flocks to them and fills the matchmaker up with instant deletion. A cruiser can reliably evade one or two battleships but not five of them. Good positioning can help but at the end of the day if your battleships are worse than their battleships your line will collapse too quickly for you to deal damage before you get swamped by 16 inch skill.

They've been trending towards giving battleships more and more idiot proof features. First the German line with hydro & turtleback, and now we have the Montana citadel changes.

 

The other day I ranted to a friend how a FdG that was cycling direction center and hydro was enough to completely nullify my 55kt ognevoi torps. No special game sense or situational awareness required, just press buttan and you get 20-30s early warning. I can make all the clever predictive torp volleys I want, it doesn't matter.

 

 

[FlorbFnarb 537]

On 7/18/2017 at 2:06 PM, SmirkingGerbil said:

The Kuma with a 10 point or + captain is a nasty little bugger @FlorbFnarb As mentioned the Koenigsberg is an awesome cruiser, but you have to use it's ability to run away from the fight, pulling the potato with you, and firing from the aft guns. Smart people break off, potatoes die while chasing you down.

The Gneisenau is a fast BB and gets past some of your pain points.

 

The Kuma seems to be doing me right, or feels like it at least.  Feels fast and agile, like it's a destroyer that has real hitpoints and guns that do something.

[Madner Kami 405]

47 minutes ago, FlorbFnarb said:

The Kuma seems to be doing me right, or feels like it at least.  Feels fast and agile, like it's a destroyer that has real hitpoints and guns that do something.

That's probably because Kuma, just like Tenryu, is a destroyer-leader, a class of ship that floats somewhere between a destroyer and a light cruiser. They were basically the grand-fathers of what we consider a destroyer nowadays.

[FlorbFnarb 537]

10 minutes ago, Madner Kami said:

That's probably because Kuma, just like Tenryu, is a destroyer-leader, a class of ship that floats somewhere between a destroyer and a light cruiser. They were basically the grand-fathers of what we consider a destroyer nowadays.

Yeah, just playing it makes it feel like there's not much point in playing actual DDs at Tier 4, because all you get is a little more speed, a little more camo, and a smoke screen, all at the expense of (1) a lot of hit points, and (2) a lot of gun-power.  Kuma still has torps plus almost as much speed and agility as the DDs, while gaining lots of durability and damage potential.

[Jaegaer 180]

I loved the Atago in the beta and only now took her out for 3 games.

Ragesold it afterwards. All three games were tier VIII - X against 5 or 6 BBs on fairly open maps. Even with one of the best tier VIII CAs in the game there was nothing I could do. Not only get you shat on by tier X Cruisers like Zao or Hindenbrug, even a lowly Bismarck can tear you a new one. The really bad reload time of the Atago makes it bad for hunting DDs and sitching ammo is a pita.

As of now the only prem CA worth it is the Kutuzov (at least until they mess around with smoke firing).

[SmirkingGerbil 110]

On 7/21/2017 at 5:17 PM, FlorbFnarb said:

Yeah, just playing it makes it feel like there's not much point in playing actual DDs at Tier 4, because all you get is a little more speed, a little more camo, and a smoke screen, all at the expense of (1) a lot of hit points, and (2) a lot of gun-power.  Kuma still has torps plus almost as much speed and agility as the DDs, while gaining lots of durability and damage potential.

Just wait till you get that 10+ point captain in it, and you get the skill that knocks 10% off torp reload time (forget name). You can salvo torps every 30 secs, and from each side, creating area denial just on torp density alone . . . as long as you can dance well and stay alive.

6 hours ago, Jaegaer said:

I loved the Atago in the beta and only now took her out for 3 games.

Ragesold it afterwards. All three games were tier VIII - X against 5 or 6 BBs on fairly open maps. Even with one of the best tier VIII CAs in the game there was nothing I could do. Not only get you shat on by tier X Cruisers like Zao or Hindenbrug, even a lowly Bismarck can tear you a new one. The really bad reload time of the Atago makes it bad for hunting DDs and sitching ammo is a pita.

As of now the only prem CA worth it is the Kutuzov (at least until they mess around with smoke firing).

Looks like smoke firing tampering is postponed one more patch:

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/83812-new-smoke-upcoming-changes-very-bad-idea/?page=3#comment-1944704

Kandly

• Community Coordinator
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#54 ·

Posted 5 hours ago · Report post

Hi guys,

 

After discussing and reviewing the Supertest participants' feedback, we decided to continue the internal testing of the smoke visibility mechanics changes, which means the smoke visibility mechanics will remain the same in 0.6.9. Please note that we could be considering other options for this particular change. We know this affects one of the oldest in-game mechanics and we understand our players' concerns. However, we would like to remind you guys that the purpose of Supertest is to identify the most controversial parts of the changes and to offer us a different perspective by allowing us to take a step back and observe how they interact within the game. Keep in mind that not all of the tested items/mechanics necessarily need reach the public test stage, they can be sent for revision or become completely revised.

 

Cheers,

Kandly

 

 

[Madner Kami 405]

3 hours ago, SmirkingGerbil said:

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/83812-new-smoke-upcoming-changes-very-bad-idea/?page=3#comment-1944704

Kandl

However, we would like to remind you guys that the purpose of Supertest is to identify the most controversial parts of the changes and to offer us a different perspective by allowing us to take a step back and observe how they interact within the game. Keep in mind that not all of the tested items/mechanics necessarily need reach the public test stage, they can be sent for revision or become completely revised.

 

Cheers,

Kandly

 

 

And I would like to remind her, that this game is called World of Warships, not World of Battleships. WarGaming has shit on everything that is not a BB since the end of CBT, first nerfing CVs, which resulted in the obsolence of US cruisers, then DDs over and over again, which obsoleted the cruisers even more. Nowadays, during a normal day, the queues are full of battleships, often times reaching 60+ with still zero CVs, 4 DDs and cruisers waiting (but usually they are dumped into a game instantly, due to the overflow of BBs available, which makes the MM happily take whatever is there). Nerf Battleship accuracy in the tiers 8+ (and Arizona). Remove Radar. Nerf BB-AA. Ban everyone who complains about smoke and lower the smoke duration for cruiser smoke to ~30s and you are set. Fucking hell, this is not rocket science, it is you being blind to what the real issue is and listening to the fucking BB-crybabies.

[thegeek2 7]

On 7/16/2017 at 6:41 PM, How_Terrible said:

Hindenburg is the reward you get after suffering through the mediocre - average ships that comprises the rest of the German cruiser line. Is is good, very good. It suffers from having horrible stealth and low maneuverability, but it makes up for with by having great guns that are viable with both AP and HE and having the best protective scheme of any cruiser in the game. The Hindy can just shrug off a lot of damage be instantly fatal to any of the other tier ten cruisers. While she won't out brawl most BB's she will give them a good show, and at long range can make them regret pressing the battle button. At the same time she makes every other cruiser shit its pants as long as the Hindy captain isn't a mouth breathing retard. In the Hindenburg the only time I really fear any other cruiser is when they have created a situation where they can see me, and fire at me, without me being able to see them, because if I can see them and shoot at them they are probably going to die.

 

Also, I disagree on your comments on the Des Moines. It is viable enough for solo play. Though I will admit that it is much stronger when played in the division.

Eh, I'd take on a Hindy in my DM, as long as it was inside of 12 km. Long range I couldn't compete with hindy arcs.

On 7/18/2017 at 3:38 AM, Pocktio said:

Cruisers require constant attention and skill. You can die or be crippled in seconds. You don't if you play a BB, well you can get wrecked but not deleted usually and it will 100% be your own fault it happened, unlike cruisers where shitty luck can get you. There's nothing more frustrating than deploying mad WASD hax, dealing damage, maybe getting a kill, weaving like a motherclucker and that baddie Colorado base camping at max range is missing every volley, except that last volley? 7 shots hit the water miles way, but oh nooo, that one random shell lands and bam, you take a citadel and you're crippled. The game loves to reward bad play from people like that.

Plus guns that hit hard. It is soooooo much easier to rack up damage quickly. Cruisers need time to build up damage, increasing the time means there are more opportunities to get wrecked.

It's a shame cruisers have no real strength over BBs or DDs anymore, the meta scorns them :/

To the contrary, I'd say cruisers have a reasonable shot at taking on anything. Cruisers can burn a BB down from range or cover, and obviously seriously outgun DDs.

[thegeek2 7]

1 hour ago, Madner Kami said:

And I would like to remind her, that this game is called World of Warships, not World of Battleships. WarGaming has shit on everything that is not a BB since the end of CBT, first nerfing CVs, which resulted in the obsolence of US cruisers, then DDs over and over again, which obsoleted the cruisers even more. Nowadays, during a normal day, the queues are full of battleships, often times reaching 60+ with still zero CVs, 4 DDs and cruisers waiting (but usually they are dumped into a game instantly, due to the overflow of BBs available, which makes the MM happily take whatever is there). Nerf Battleship accuracy in the tiers 8+ (and Arizona). Remove Radar. Nerf BB-AA. Ban everyone who complains about smoke and lower the smoke duration for cruiser smoke to ~30s and you are set. Fucking hell, this is not rocket science, it is you being blind to what the real issue is and listening to the fucking BB-crybabies.

I share some of your sentiments, but some of your ideas aren't feasible. You can't just ban people for complaining, nor can you unleash a targeted nerf on premium ships like Kutuzov or Belfast without major backlash. Same for removing radar from premium ships. It's the main gimmick on tier 7 premium cruisers like Indianapolis. The smoke changes being considered would help with the unbalanced cruisers like Kutuzov and Belfast, I'm just worried about collateral impacts on DDs.

[How_Terrible 529]

3 hours ago, thegeek2 said:

Eh, I'd take on a Hindy in my DM, as long as it was inside of 12 km. Long range I couldn't compete with hindy arcs.

 

As long as both ships remain properly angled, and don't do anything stupid, close range DM v. Hindy fights are fucking brutal for both sides.

[Pocktio 730]

9 hours ago, thegeek2 said:

Eh, I'd take on a Hindy in my DM, as long as it was inside of 12 km. Long range I couldn't compete with hindy arcs.

To the contrary, I'd say cruisers have a reasonable shot at taking on anything. Cruisers can burn a BB down from range or cover, and obviously seriously outgun DDs.

What if you have no cover? That happens alot. 

What if you have no range? What if there are cap zones? BBs dont have to worry about either, they can work in all conditions.

Also if a DD player is getting fired on by a cruiser under 10km then that's the DD fucking up. They got the camo, smoke and speed to stay safe. Also no citadels. Cruisers are hella situational compared to other ships.

[Madner Kami 405]

1 hour ago, Pocktio said:

What if you have no cover? That happens alot. 

What if you have no range? What if there are cap zones? BBs dont have to worry about either, they can work in all conditions.

Also if a DD player is getting fired on by a cruiser under 10km then that's the DD fucking up. They got the camo, smoke and speed to stay safe. Also no citadels. Cruisers are hella situational compared to other ships.

Talking as if there is no radar. Also, DDs may have no citadel, yet they take an aweful lot of damage from especially BB AP, if they are hit midships or along the length of the ship.

[Rodrigopine 184]

6 hours ago, Madner Kami said:

Talking as if there is no radar. Also, DDs may have no citadel, yet they take an aweful lot of damage from especially BB AP, if they are hit midships or along the length of the ship.

lol I had a Montana blind fire my Shimakaze at 12km in smoke over the weekend and I went from 100% hp to 10% hp. I was moving at 1/4 speed, firing my guns at an Udaloi with low health that I was ambushing. I was a bit surprised to say the least.

[Jarkorsis 92]

I wonder if a simple solution would be just remove CA and CL citadels. They just become normal damage hits. At least it would take a BB a few hits to kill you.

[OnboardG1 1,279]

On 7/25/2017 at 1:44 AM, How_Terrible said:

As long as both ships remain properly angled, and don't do anything stupid, close range DM v. Hindy fights are fucking brutal for both sides.

Hindy should win by charging in and torping unless the DM has a brain and kites away. Then the DM probably wins through superior dpm. I actually lost a knife fight against a DM in my Zao once though because he ran so close to me that my torpedoes didn't arm (smart move).

[Rodrigopine 184]

The DM's DPM is pretty hilarious especially against targets that show too much side. I don't own one, I've just seen the damage they can pump out.

[Manic_Wombat 248]

On 26/07/2017 at 1:42 AM, Rodrigopine said:

lol I had a Montana blind fire my Shimakaze at 12km in smoke over the weekend and I went from 100% hp to 10% hp. I was moving at 1/4 speed, firing my guns at an Udaloi with low health that I was ambushing. I was a bit surprised to say the least.

Have you seen Flamu's video on using a spotter plane to (quite accurately) aim at ships firing from inside a smoke screen?

 

If he was doing this it was a lot less of a blind shot than you might expect.

[thegeek2 7]

On 7/24/2017 at 8:44 PM, How_Terrible said:

As long as both ships remain properly angled, and don't do anything stupid, close range DM v. Hindy fights are fucking brutal for both sides.

I don't doubt it, but if neither gives broadside for citadels and the DM doesn't eat torps, I think DM is favored with her better DPM. Her AB-X turret configuration puts more of her firepower in front than Hindy's as well. With that said, I'm sure the DM will not come out of such an encounter hale and healthy. Hindenburg is definitely more forgiving though, since she has tougher armor over her cit at close range, and a broadside of 8 torpedoes you could always get lucky with.

3 hours ago, OnboardG1 said:

Hindy should win by charging in and torping unless the DM has a brain and kites away. Then the DM probably wins through superior dpm. I actually lost a knife fight against a DM in my Zao once though because he ran so close to me that my torpedoes didn't arm (smart move).

That's true, although I try not to get to point blank range against an opponent with torpedoes. A kiting ship always has an advantage over the chasing ship. Against a Zao, if she gives enough broadside to get her torps away, I can usually cit-nuke her. She's also not as good at punishing me if I have to turn around to avoid giving her a torpedo shot, since she has such a long reload.

[OnboardG1 1,279]

11 hours ago, thegeek2 said:

That's true, although I try not to get to point blank range against an opponent with torpedoes. A kiting ship always has an advantage over the chasing ship. Against a Zao, if she gives enough broadside to get her torps away, I can usually cit-nuke her. She's also not as good at punishing me if I have to turn around to avoid giving her a torpedo shot, since she has such a long reload.

That isn't actually true, it depends on the shape of the stern and the calibre being shot at it. The DM needs to kite away at a 45 degree angle because it has a transom stern. At shorter ranges you can punch through the butt and into the citadel fairly easily. At longer ranges it doesn't matter so much. 

If you're charge torping you shouldn't be giving broadside until you pass the enemy ship (drive by basically), just as you launch. There are exceptions of course, such as if a battleship botches his shot and lets you turn in on him, but for the most part your run in needs to take you right next to them before dropping (which is where a smart opponent can force your torps to dud).

[Rodrigopine 184]

14 hours ago, Manic_Wombat said:

Have you seen Flamu's video on using a spotter plane to (quite accurately) aim at ships firing from inside a smoke screen?

 

If he was doing this it was a lot less of a blind shot than you might expect.

Yes I have seen Flamu use this technique a lot against larger ships sitting in smoke and It's definitely possible to hit destroyers. I was just surprised because I was not stationary and I was chain firing, not volley firing because my target was a low health Udaloi that was ducking and weaving. And the Shima isn't a particularly large target. Yet with all those disadvantages he nearly one shot me in part because of his aim but also in part due to some RNG giving him some super tight dispersion. I got nailed by at least 3 shells. Really the point of my anecdote with high tier BBs is that as a class they're pretty strong and don't need buffs, maybe just some ship specific buffs. Really the ships that need love are cruisers because they can be hilariously easy to delete by BBs in high tier matches.

[MntRunner 223]

6 minutes ago, Rodrigopine said:

I was chain firing

This gave him an indication that you were not stationary, and the direction you were moving. You are right though that he did have RNG. Getting distance right is difficult on non-targeted ships.