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MagicalFlyingFox

Tier 10 LT rebalance - WG missing the point again

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16 minutes ago, hazzgar said:

PS. Have in mind that if WG fucks up bigger maps and decides it needs to help superheavies to be competitive they will buff speeds. You want the Maus to cruise at 30kph? Wg is stupid enough to do that.

What I want is demolition derby mode where a Maus or E100 can cruise at 70kph and catch air off of ramps.  But I'll settle for scouting simply being a thing again at upper tiers.  Which is why I play my tier 7 scouts so much, b/c vision games are still totally a thing in a tier 7 game.

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3 hours ago, Tanager said:

What I want is demolition derby mode where a Maus or E100 can cruise at 70kph and catch air off of ramps.  But I'll settle for scouting simply being a thing again at upper tiers.  Which is why I play my tier 7 scouts so much, b/c vision games are still totally a thing in a tier 7 game.

 

3 hours ago, BlackAdder said:

But that’s skewing tanks around stupid super heavys. 

You gotta go for one thing, if you have fuck you armor which Maus currently have, you have to face the truth when your team fail and LTs/MTs overruns you. It’s just the way it is. Until then you have armor, gun and HP for choke points on even semi open maps. I think it’s fair.

Guys remember it's WG and WG now favors the stupidest players. Of course Maus would have to become shit again to get buffs so we are talking probably 1-2 years time but if that happens they would overbuff it again since it's very hard to properly balance tanks with extreme characteristics.

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Also remember, that most Tier X heavies with non-shit crews are around 430-440 VR without optics or food.  Meds and TDs that move or shoot are going to get spotted and LTs cannot pen most heavies even with premium ammo at any distance.  For every scenario where LTs/meds can kite heavies in an open end game, there are plenty of city fights where my only play in a LT is to try to flank through buildings or corner poke.

Admittedly the E25 vs IS is a fucked up example - but the E25 is an abomination that only exists to torment weak mined pubbies anyway.  The IS is a horrid tank and probably one of the easiest tanks in Tier 7 to kite because the gun handling is abysmal even if he could see you, but a good IS driver will make use of hard cover near his cap and at least shorten the odds a bit.

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10 hours ago, Archaic_One said:

Also remember, that most Tier X heavies with non-shit crews are around 430-440 VR without optics or food.  Meds and TDs that move or shoot are going to get spotted and LTs cannot pen most heavies even with premium ammo at any distance.  For every scenario where LTs/meds can kite heavies in an open end game, there are plenty of city fights where my only play in a LT is to try to flank through buildings or corner poke.

Admittedly the E25 vs IS is a fucked up example - but the E25 is an abomination that only exists to torment weak mined pubbies anyway.  The IS is a horrid tank and probably one of the easiest tanks in Tier 7 to kite because the gun handling is abysmal even if he could see you, but a good IS driver will make use of hard cover near his cap and at least shorten the odds a bit.

Yeah that's why I have an extreme example. I really think some heavies actually do have too much wr (looking at you japanese tank line) . To be honest I would really like to play broken vision machine light tanks for a while but can wg maybe wait till I end my obj260 missions? only 5 to go.

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5 hours ago, hazzgar said:

Yeah that's why I have an extreme example. I really think some heavies actually do have too much wr (looking at you japanese tank line) . To be honest I would really like to play broken vision machine light tanks for a while but can wg maybe wait till I end my obj260 missions? only 5 to go.

Just about *every* tier 10 heavy tank (save the Kranvagn) has a base VR of 400, the FV215b has 410.  But yeah, having tier *8* heavies with 400 base VR is more than a bit broken (looking at you, O-Ho, Tiger II, Loewe, and Chrysler, for example).

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43 minutes ago, Tanager said:

Just about *every* tier 10 heavy tank (save the Kranvagn) has a base VR of 400, the FV215b has 410.  But yeah, having tier *8* heavies with 400 base VR is more than a bit broken (looking at you, O-Ho, Tiger II, Loewe, and Chrysler, for example).

Yeah I think it would be better if they have 390-400vr at t10. Less at t8. My Lowe is at over max vr with little effort ffs. This is a bigger issue.

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42 minutes ago, hazzgar said:

Yeah I think it would be better if they have 390-400vr at t10. Less at t8. My Lowe is at over max vr with little effort ffs. This is a bigger issue.

I agree (350-360 is more appropriate for a tier 8 heavy), but queue legions of pubbies crying about getting kited while doing the solo crossing of an open field.  To which I would argue, yeah, and that's how the game mechanics *should* work,  where scouting actually matters.

The IS3 has 350 base VR with the top turret, and I am aware of precisely noone saying the IS3 needs a VR buff to be relevant.

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They need to do a global change of all VR from about tier 7 up. Premiums included. Decide, per type and tier, what the mean, max, and min base VRs need to be for each type/tier, put it on a diagram, stick it on a wall, argue about it over lots of vodka until its sensible and consistent, then ensure that 'spread' is fairly applied to each type/tier. 

Oh look - a flying pig!!

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12 minutes ago, BlackAdder said:

That’s kinda balance of IS-3.

Sure, but what is the rationale for the VK 100.01 (P) having 400 instead of 350?  If it's that it's a taller, less mobile target than the IS3, sure, but what was wrong with 375 or so?  Sticking to the same county, the Indien-Panzer has 380 - there is no real rationale for the VK being able to outspot a paper medium by 20 meters running stock.

IMHO they really need to take a hard look at nerfing heavy VRs.

5 minutes ago, Gryphon_ said:

They need to do a global change of all VR from about tier 7 up. Premiums included. Decide, per type and tier, what the mean, max, and min base VRs need to be for each type/tier, put it on a diagram, stick it on a wall, argue about it over lots of vodka until its sensible and consistent, then ensure that 'spread' is fairly applied to each type/tier. 

Oh look - a flying pig!!

So much agree.

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I just realised this hasn't been implemented in 9.20. WTF WG is waiting ? Just do the change.. FFS.. You need another 6 months of "data"  ?

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Well now lots of meds have had a turret armor buff, and some gun buffs, the t10 lights are even more shit than before. Sick of hitting over and over for no pen. Finally had some luck with HEAT into flanks of TDs at huge range but Im still pissed.

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They just need to revert them back to how they were at the end of the sandbox, they were fine, WG and some average bobs just panicked because they played themselves on public test so inevitably we're going to do well, not hard for a decent player to beat a load of bobs also in tier 10 lights. On the Sandbox where you were limited to 1 game in them and then 3 in other tier 10s they were fine. First iteration T-100 was super op and 13-105 was terrible but by the end they were all pretty decent, only change that was correct was taking the T-100 plate down from 120mm. 

Hopefully they'll realise these changes are not enough and we'll see more, I bet these tanks will get back to pretty much their original state eventually.  They need to stop listening to 48% IS7 players. 

As someone above said with Patton, 30b, 140, IS7, soon Cent AX buffs these tanks are even worse off than release. 

IMO HP needs to go more to 1650 - 1700 range. 

View range of them all needs to go up by 10m

Keep the ammo capacity buffs

Accuracy needs to go into the 0.35 - 0.38 range, with Rhm. getting like 0.3.

Alpha needs to go back to what it was. 

And DPM needs to go to the good tier 9 med level, so 2.5k to 2.7k range. 

Makes these tanks what they should be, extreme flanker, breakthrough tanks that can spot well but do more than that. That are poor in frontal engagements because of their low pen, HP and armour. 

Basically firepower wise and HP wise they should be tier med level and then have their extreme mobility and good camp to compensate. That is basically what the tier 9 lights are, they have tier 8 HP and good tier 8 guns (though they need better DPM) and they are tier for tier stronger then their tier 10 counterparts.

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Well, the solution to my angst with the 105 on the Sheridan is fit the DERP.

Funnily enough, with the DERP, the other team now gives you a bit of respect - its rare for everyone to try and yolo you like they do if they think you have the 105. Being able to trash other lights is very important in survival to endgame, cleanup, etc. Cost is having to take vents off and fit vstab, so lost 11m VR - down to 472m (sob!) but it still seems to spot stuff for me to DERP, so that's fine. 

And its more fun - hitting TDs at 400m for 950 dmg - wonderful

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Here is a graph showing the problem with the pen on the tier ten lights - which they do not seem to be fixing. Notice how the pen on the tier ten lights falls off a cliff when compared with a selection of mediums and lights from tiers 10 - 8 (as available in my garage). Only in a graph can you clearly see the problem. Feel free to copy and post this everywhere.

Pen%20Dropoff.JPG

Its also interesting that the FV4202 has better pen than the M46 and the T54.

 

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On 9/16/2017 at 7:17 PM, Gryphon_ said:

Here is a graph showing the problem with the pen on the tier ten lights - which they do not seem to be fixing. Notice how the pen on the tier ten lights falls off a cliff when compared with a selection of mediums and lights from tiers 10 - 8 (as available in my garage). Only in a graph can you clearly see the problem. Feel free to copy and post this everywhere.

Pen%20Dropoff.JPG

Its also interesting that the FV4202 has better pen than the M46 and the T54.

 

Just like the similar graph I posted to reddit (here: https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldofTanks/comments/6mowpw/wz1321_penetration_falloff/) This graph has a small error. 

Pen is actually constant out to 100 meters, despite what you would think from looking at the garage stats. And after 500 meters there is no more falloff. This gives us a graph that looks like this:
pen.png

Granted its not that big a difference, but I thought I would mention it, since I made the same mistake :)
(Notice btw, how the WZ-131-1 APCR drops below Hellcat APCR and TOG APCR at around 150 meters :P)

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On 9/16/2017 at 7:17 PM, Gryphon_ said:

 

Disregard the empty quote, forum bugged out in this post somehow :S 

Anyways: Afaik all tier 10 lights have the same 20% pen dropoff from 100 to 500 meters as the WZ. 

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14 minutes ago, GreatPenetrator said:

Disregard the empty quote, forum bugged out in this post somehow :S 

Anyways: Afaik all tier 10 lights have the same 20% pen dropoff from 100 to 500 meters as the WZ. 

Low Pen + Low accuracy + Big Pen Drop Off. Good job WG at making t10 lights have worse guns than t8 heavies.

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