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And then they said "WOT IS P2W!"

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34 minutes ago, GehakteMolen said:

i played platoon with a defender, me liberte / IS3, he defender, and the hates it, a lot... (hate as in, arty hate levels of hate...)

And since hes better as 99% of the playerbase, im quite sure hes opinion > most other ppl, especially when it comes to an overhyped tank like defender)

ps: and Lowe > defender, since reliability > once in a blue moon RNG mega games

Opinions =/= statistical fact. Statistically the Defender overperforms at every skill level, while the KT and KV4 don't.

You can argue all you like. Wrong is still wrong.

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10 hours ago, StormCrowReaperManyHats said:

Opinions =/= statistical fact. Statistically the Defender overperforms at every skill level, while the KT and KV4 don't.

You can argue all you like. Wrong is still wrong.

This comes back time and time again, but:

As a result, the statistical comparison for tier 8 is such a disaster zone that I ran out of colours:

place elimination uniwin superwin
1 IS-3 IS-3 IS-3
2 Pershing T32 T32
3 T32 Ferdinand Ferdinand
4 Obj. 416 KV-4 Pershing
5 AMX 50 100 T-44 T-44
6 110 Pershing KV-4
7 JPanther II O-Ho Obj. 416
8 Rhm.-B. WT Obj. 416 110
9 T69 Tiger II Tiger II
10 T-44 Centurion I Charioteer
11 STA-1 AT 15 Caernarvon
12 ISU-152 Caernarvon Centurion I
13 Tiger II 110 O-Ho
14 Indien-Pz. T69 AMX 50 100
15 Charioteer Charioteer T69
16 Ferdinand T28 AT 15
17 O-Ho ISU-152 ISU-152
18 T-34-2 AMX 50 100 JPanther II
19 SU-101 T28 Prot. Rhm.-B. WT
20 KV-4 JPanther II Panther II
21 AT 15 Panther II T28
22 VK 45.02 A VK 45.02 A T28 Prot.
23 Panther II Rhm.-B. WT VK 45.02 A
24 Caernarvon Indien-Pz. Indien-Pz.
25 Centurion I STA-1 STA-1
26 AMX AC 48 SU-101 TVP VTU
27 T28 Prot. TVP VTU T-34-2
28 TVP VTU T-34-2 SU-101
29 T28 AMX AC 48 AMX AC 48

The Centurion, Panther II and T-44 get different MM weight and so can be ignored, although that doesn't help much. The IS-3 and WT have sufficient popularity to skew the winrates via tank-matching, although only the IS-3 is likely to be underrated as a result

New tanks and some buffs ofc change the list a bit, but KV4 will still be among the very best, above almost anything (and due to heavy buffs + KV4 buffs, but i doubt T32 is still above KV4, KV4 atleast gets the god-mode gold ammo, a T-32 with its 245 pen gold is really gonna suffer in tier 10...)

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16 minutes ago, GehakteMolen said:

This comes back time and time again, but:

As a result, the statistical comparison for tier 8 is such a disaster zone that I ran out of colours:

place elimination uniwin superwin
1 IS-3 IS-3 IS-3
2 Pershing T32 T32
3 T32 Ferdinand Ferdinand
4 Obj. 416 KV-4 Pershing
5 AMX 50 100 T-44 T-44
6 110 Pershing KV-4
7 JPanther II O-Ho Obj. 416
8 Rhm.-B. WT Obj. 416 110
9 T69 Tiger II Tiger II
10 T-44 Centurion I Charioteer
11 STA-1 AT 15 Caernarvon
12 ISU-152 Caernarvon Centurion I
13 Tiger II 110 O-Ho
14 Indien-Pz. T69 AMX 50 100
15 Charioteer Charioteer T69
16 Ferdinand T28 AT 15
17 O-Ho ISU-152 ISU-152
18 T-34-2 AMX 50 100 JPanther II
19 SU-101 T28 Prot. Rhm.-B. WT
20 KV-4 JPanther II Panther II
21 AT 15 Panther II T28
22 VK 45.02 A VK 45.02 A T28 Prot.
23 Panther II Rhm.-B. WT VK 45.02 A
24 Caernarvon Indien-Pz. Indien-Pz.
25 Centurion I STA-1 STA-1
26 AMX AC 48 SU-101 TVP VTU
27 T28 Prot. TVP VTU T-34-2
28 TVP VTU T-34-2 SU-101
29 T28 AMX AC 48 AMX AC 48

The Centurion, Panther II and T-44 get different MM weight and so can be ignored, although that doesn't help much. The IS-3 and WT have sufficient popularity to skew the winrates via tank-matching, although only the IS-3 is likely to be underrated as a result

New tanks and some buffs ofc change the list a bit, but KV4 will still be among the very best, above almost anything (and due to heavy buffs + KV4 buffs, but i doubt T32 is still above KV4, KV4 atleast gets the god-mode gold ammo, a T-32 with its 245 pen gold is really gonna suffer in tier 10...)

Cool story bro, that's not consistent with the known facts however.

http://www.vbaddict.net/statistics.php?tier=8&tanktype=0&nation=0&premium=0&modeid=0&team=0&battles=1000&groupby=0&fieldname=won_lost_ratio&server=

Second 'vbaddict is bad data' Fuck up.

SG6ZDfc.jpg

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1 hour ago, StormCrowReaperManyHats said:

Cool story bro, that's not consistent with the known facts however.

http://www.vbaddict.net/statistics.php?tier=8&tanktype=0&nation=0&premium=0&modeid=0&team=0&battles=1000&groupby=0&fieldname=won_lost_ratio&server=

Second 'vbaddict is bad data' Fuck up.

VB addict is biased data, the stuff form richard nixon was datamined from the whole server, and thus ``truth``, only argument against it, is that its fairly old, and thus slowly becomes irrelevant

However due to WG`s slowness with nerfing / buffing, and our moronic playerbase, any kind of changes takes half a year, so even stuff from 2 years old is still ``ok``

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Winrate curves however aren't. 

 

KV-4 is weakspot ridden and doesn't get a giant fuck off gun.

Defender is idiotproof and gets an idiotproof gun. 

I don't even think MM weight exists anymore. Tier and class is all that matters. 

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Comparing prem tank with normal tank while using curves is GG anyway, and if you thing im talking nonsens:

T44_stronk.png

T-44 vs T-44-100, the exact same tank, T-44 gets the better mm (dunno if limited mm weight got ditched) yet T-44-100 is based on curves far better, GG i guess?

And any argument against this also applies to Defender vs KV4 (stock vs elite, or more gold spammers driving the prem tank, better crews)

Me (unicum) in KV4 vs other random unicum in defender, wont make much difference in winratio after x hunderd games, because the tanks are almost the same, ``win power wise``, both will pummel low tier trash, and both will need to play carefull against tier 10`s (the pen power (289 apcr) of KV4 is worth more as the alpha dmg of the defender i think, but thats a matter of taste and playstyle)

and YES, the KV4 DOES have a good gun, infact, one of the best guns of tier 8:

  1. KT (no contest whatsoever, its easy 50% better as the 2e best gun)
  2. IS3 / Lowe
  3. KV4
  4. rest
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11 minutes ago, StormCrowReaperManyHats said:

Apart from the bit where what even is the T44-100P

Funny how it's the only one over performing.

The P is called R on our server. It's the one that was a long mission reward while the 44-100 is the one you could buy. It's the same as the 44-100 but very slightly different to a standard t44. Gets skirts, worse power to weight, better resistances.

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On 18/12/2017 at 0:31 AM, GehakteMolen said:

Comparing prem tank with normal tank while using curves is GG anyway, and if you thing im talking nonsens:

T44_stronk.png

T-44 vs T-44-100, the exact same tank, T-44 gets the better mm (dunno if limited mm weight got ditched) yet T-44-100 is based on curves far better, GG i guess?

And any argument against this also applies to Defender vs KV4 (stock vs elite, or more gold spammers driving the prem tank, better crews)

Me (unicum) in KV4 vs other random unicum in defender, wont make much difference in winratio after x hunderd games, because the tanks are almost the same, ``win power wise``, both will pummel low tier trash, and both will need to play carefull against tier 10`s (the pen power (289 apcr) of KV4 is worth more as the alpha dmg of the defender i think, but thats a matter of taste and playstyle)

and YES, the KV4 DOES have a good gun, infact, one of the best guns of tier 8:

  1. KT (no contest whatsoever, its easy 50% better as the 2e best gun)
  2. IS3 / Lowe
  3. KV4
  4. rest

3fde82e5ba.png

 

857065b2da.png

4840daf55e.png

 

Do i continue?

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10 hours ago, MagicalFlyingFox said:

Do i continue?

Whats your point?

My point is: T-44-100 >> T-44

Yet T-44 has:

  • Better mm
  • is the same fucking tank

So unless T-44-100 overperforms due to:

  • Gold ammo
  • better crews
  • better players

The graph if bullshit, and if they graph is not bullshit, it means the above influence its winratio, and GUESS WHAT, the reason a T-44-100 does better as a T-44 also apply to defender vs any other non-premium.

Premium tanks ALWAYS overperform vs normal tanks, ALWAYS, but i guess your like those ppl who made wn8, they also failed to understand that aswell (and thus gave the exact same tank different expected values, because hurr durr)

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There is a point where it is blatantly imbalanced and if you can't see that the Defender is blatantly imbalanced, I'm not sure how I can help with that. 

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5 hours ago, GehakteMolen said:

So unless T-44-100 overperforms due to:

Note that it's only the R / P version that is doing well. And only in its 'recents'. Its overalls looked not dissimilar to the others. Further as mentioned before the players who'd have one would be a markedly different group to most other premiums given the missions required to get one.

Beyond that is there a confirmed source for the MM difference to the T44?

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1 minute ago, Ezz said:

Note that it's only the R / P version that is doing well. And only in its 'recents'. Its overalls looked not dissimilar to the others. Further as mentioned before the players who'd have one would be a markedly different group to most other premiums given the missions required to get one.

Beyond that is there a confirmed source for the MM difference to the T44?

Not anymore. MM weight got scrapped with 3-5-7 didn't it? 

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Just now, MagicalFlyingFox said:

Not anymore. MM weight got scrapped with 3-5-7 didn't it? 

I believe it did, but with WG, who knows. Either way, i would have thought the T44-100 would make a better comparison between regular and premium given it could only be bought, not won during a marathon.

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4 minutes ago, Ezz said:

I believe it did, but with WG, who knows. Either way, i would have thought the T44-100 would make a better comparison between regular and premium given it could only be bought, not won during a marathon.

If premium tanks all outperformed tech tree tanks by a good 5%, then that would make almost every premium tank in the game except the defender under powered.

 

 

I sure think when i see a patriot "That tank needs a buff, its UP."

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6 minutes ago, Ezz said:

I believe it did, but with WG, who knows. Either way, i would have thought the T44-100 would make a better comparison between regular and premium given it could only be bought, not won during a marathon.

Steady on there Tige. We do not into logic here.

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19 hours ago, Ezz said:

Note that it's only the R / P version that is doing well. And only in its 'recents'. Its overalls looked not dissimilar to the others. Further as mentioned before the players who'd have one would be a markedly different group to most other premiums given the missions required to get one.

Beyond that is there a confirmed source for the MM difference to the T44?

Is there a different version for T-44-100? on wot-news, it has only stats for T-44-100 (for eu)

For russian server is also has P, here the P has a few million games played and the T-44-100 only 29 (its often old data)

http://wot-news.com/stat/server/ru/norm/ru

ps: seems the T-44-100 P is a russian server exclusive, so the R / no letter version is the normal tank

ps ps: long ago, mediums used to have reduced mm weight (table form patch 8.6)

mm_weight_8.6.png

Over time, WG gave all new meds normal mm, but the old ones (so those present in patch 8.6 and not listed as exception) kept their special mm, Panther 2 and T-44 being the tanks benefitting the most

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Yes I recall the mm weights but is it stated anywhere what the current situation is?

And for the 44100 versions, on sea we got the r version as a marathon reward, no p version and the no letter version for sale. Not sure how it worked over on Ru. 

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On 21-12-2017 at 0:18 AM, MagicalFlyingFox said:

It doesnt say that its dead, and i think many old mm rules still apply aswell:

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Matchmaker_(WoT)#Vehicle_Weight

(i know the wiki is often old, outdated or plain wrong, but still, stuff like a hotchkiss getting fucked by mm wont ever be removed i think.

  • The Pz.Kpfw. 38H 735 (f) "Hotchkiss" is a tier 2 tank with 233% extra weight, with 7 points it is weighted close to a tier 4 tank, but it is in the same battle tier as other tier 2 light tanks.

 

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19 minutes ago, Ezz said:

So basically we can assume they are the same until we know otherwise. 

The tanks themself are the same, and my gutfeeling, based on long tim trends (no new tier 8 medium got reduced weight since the centurion mk1) is that WG ditched the mm weight part for T44

MM weight as a whole still exist in some form, however most parts are now redudant, due to fixed format (no need to give heavys more weight, since the old balancing solution: 3x E75 vs 4x E50 is no longer possible)

same for scouts and arty, they get balanced seperate now

ps: or they ditched it entirely, and made something new, but we will never know, since this is the stuff thats not always leaked / shown

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Given WG's approach to balance who knows. Either way I'm not convinced this prem vs trees phenomenon is widespread for comparable tanks. 

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